ZoS - Seriously, (when) are the fixes for Stamina builds coming?

trimsic_ESO · September 2014

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
Glad to read this statement. But please, hurry up, because from the perspective of a new player who has just bought ESO:

- I want to be a tank in Cyrodiil - not viable, it's just a joke
- I want to be a melee damage dealer in Cyrodiil - not viable: I'm not a threat to people wearing a light armor, and I'm actually a sitting duck for those who nuke as hell with their magical spells
- I want to be a healer - it's more or less OK, but the lack of focus heal is really terrible for a person who loves to be a "true" healer; medic!
- I want to be crowd controller - well, forget about it
- I want to be spell damage dealer - good choice! I can choose any class, and I will just perform well in that role. The only issue is that I'm going to be the clone of everyone else in the game.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · September 2014

Kego wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You basically just outlined the major problem in this game. All class abilities use magicka. Hence why builds that stack magicka/spellpower are so much more effective than builds that stack stamina/weapon power.

Problem is not with the attributes of Stamina and Magicka it is with the Armor Trait of Impenetrable.
Class Skill for Melee Builds are build around Stamina doing lot's of crits but less base DMG, cause Melee Class Skills scales with Weapon Crit (Most Stamina Builds are around 50-60% Crit). With Magicka Builds you would do more Base DMG but your crit Chance with them is extremly low (around 0-10%).

In PvP is Impenetrable a real issue, cause you won't crit with Class Skills against Player that have 5-6 Armor Parts with Impen. Making these skills weaker than they are in PvE.

I agree with some of the other things you said but this is laughably misinformed. magica builds which are stacking crit are getting 60-80% crit, not 0-10%. my healer is focusing on sustainability instead of crit and i still easily get around 40% crit chance.

a real issue is armor's activated abilities being usable without 5 of that type equipped. its giving magica builds a huge boost to use the little stamina they have to not need to cc break or roll, just have shields and immovable then bam

heavy armor would get a boost simply by nobody else having access to immovable.

Xsorus · September 2014

The main problem with stamina builds right now is every class is going to use their Class abilities, The problem with that is...Every single class ability scales off Magicka and usually spellpower.

Make Class abilities scale based on which stat is highest.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The main problem with stamina builds right now is every class is going to use their Class abilities, The problem with that is...Every single class ability scales off Magicka and usually spellpower.

Make Class abilities scale based on which stat is highest.

I agree, but would also like the option to use weapon melee skills as opposed to something to use as an accompaniment to magicka skills. And then there's the odd design of using weapon crit for class based melee skills....well sometimes.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2014

Stx wrote: »

If they ever plan on balancing them, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild patch would be their best opportunity. Those are both "sneaky" factions and would could be stamina focused skill lines with survival skills, better damage skills, or whatever.

The assumption in this is that a warrior should be sneaky or underhanded. I'm not sure I agree. I really hope the 'fix' to Stamina builds has nothing to do with DB and TG. I love the idea of both, but I would hate for this to be the way to play the Knight as well as the thug, bandit, and hitman.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · September 2014

It would be nice to see ANY of the 8 trait sets that are minded for stamina builds. Atm every single one of them are made for tanking or magicka use and nothing for stamina damage dealers.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO · September 2014

When all started then stamina builds were so underpowered . Today situation is much much better. Still Stamina and Magic builds are not on same page. In pvp i would say that hybrids ( cost as denominator and not output fuel ) are as efficient as pure magic builds. In pve i would say that pool and /or regeneration is not problem but pure fact that weapon skills are not hitting hard enough to match magic builds damage. I play NB , not using siphoning attacks and still not running out of stamina and on other hand i cant out dps my own NB when he plays in robes. Difference is like 20-25% . Think that upcoming nerf for light armor ( spell and armor penetration ) will do some good balance wise but really dont know in what degree.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

Stx · September 2014

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

If they ever plan on balancing them, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild patch would be their best opportunity. Those are both "sneaky" factions and would could be stamina focused skill lines with survival skills, better damage skills, or whatever.

The assumption in this is that a warrior should be sneaky or underhanded. I'm not sure I agree. I really hope the 'fix' to Stamina builds has nothing to do with DB and TG. I love the idea of both, but I would hate for this to be the way to play the Knight as well as the thug, bandit, and hitman.

I understand what you're saying, but just because the skills come from those faction trees doesn't make your character shady.

My warrior character uses Degeneration from the Mages Guild because it is a great way to self heal and costs a low amount of magicka. That doesn't mean I consider him a Mage in any way.

Ideally, you wouldn't have to use a certain skill tree to make a stamina build viable. But all I am saying is that those two new skill lines are great opportunities for them to add stamina based skills that will help balance the problems stamina builds are having.

Arsenic_Touch · September 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

By working on a plan, they mean to say that they still have no idea what they're going to do and don't expect anything until the mayan calender resets again.
It is pretty unbelievable that this far into the game and they're still "working on a plan"

Kego · September 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

The problem with stamina builds isn't with dps. It's just that magicka users can heal better.

So the only solution in my opinion is to nerf healing in pvp.

Also, nerf the shield spells in pvp. Shield spells synergize too well with magicka builds.

And Stamina Builds can better avoid DMG with longer Block duration and more chances for Dodge rolls.

Kego · September 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

My hope is that Zenimax can correct the situation with buffs to every class, not nerfs.

1. Every passive ability for each Class Line should work across the board with everything; at minimum everything within its own skill line. Nothing is more unfun or weak than a passive that only impacts 2 skills or 3 skills.

2. No, it should not. If you want the passives, use a skill of that line. If you dont want to, than put no points into it.

2. Stamina Flood - a copy of Magicka Flood, should be added to one set of Gear that serves a warriors alternative to the Warlock Set.

Agree, that one is missing, even though I would never use it. There are to much other Sets out their, that gives me more than a Stamina Pot procc.

Kego · September 2014

..........

Arsenic_Touch · September 2014

Use the edit button dude if you're going to keep quoting people.

Kego · September 2014

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

I agree with some of the other things you said but this is laughably misinformed. magica builds which are stacking crit are getting 60-80% crit, not 0-10%. my healer is focusing on sustainability instead of crit and i still easily get around 40% crit chance.

Are you talking about 40% Spell Crit or Weapon Crit? Because Skills like Ambush, Impale and Surprise Attack from Nightblades are scaling with Weapon Crit and not Spell Crit.

a real issue is armor's activated abilities being usable without 5 of that type equipped. its giving magica builds a huge boost to use the little stamina they have to not need to cc break or roll, just have shields and immovable then bam

heavy armor would get a boost simply by nobody else having access to immovable.

That too. It is more than time for a limitation of that Skills, only useable with 5 or 7 Parts equiped. Like it is with Weapons. I can`t use a DW Skill, too if I wear 1Hand + Shield.

Exarch · September 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

It seems completely reasonable to me, from a software design perspective. This is not a 'fix', in the same terms of hey, there's a number wrong in the code and this ability isn't behaving correctly, what people want is essentially a total redesign of the way the ability system was originally designed; that comes with an enormous amount of risk, and requires a commensurate amount of planning.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO · September 2014

I think an issue is that, talking pure numbers and stats, Magicka and Stamina are treated identically. This is bad because the two pools have unique differences. Like the fact that stamina is used for more than just dps.

Buffing the base stamina pool size and either increasing the base stamina regen or providing more ways for stamina builds to boost that regen WHILE keeping the regen soft cap higher than the mana one is a possible solution.

The pool can be used for many things, but that means it needs to he easier to manage.

Beyond that, helping weapon lines synergize a little better with class skills and increasing the damage of the Stam skills across the board could really help balance.

My Stam dk is pretty fun. Magicka is used for buffs and talons, then stab them into next week with DW

Sindala · September 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

They've been too busy swanning around fanfest to fanfest getting drunk and enjoying themselves on our subs money to worry about silly things like basic game mechanics.

shiva7663 · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

I would prefer not to have to wait until Update 17 for this.

kitsinni · September 2014

The answer is just keep paying and some day something will happen but we won't say what, when, how, or why.

Mud_Puppy · September 2014

I still don't understand this. Stam build are just more situational. After all this whining we'll be OP AF.

On the otherhand, I would rather have everything get buffed opposed to nerfed.

dcincali · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan to address your concerns with stamina builds. As soon as we have more details to share, including a rough ETA, we'll definitely post it here.

10K gold says it gets posted to reddit first.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

Given the first statement by zos about stamina balancing was several months ago I hope that thrse promised fixes are more than a carrot.

Pseudonym · September 2014

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
Glad to read this statement. But please, hurry up.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

shiva7663 wrote: »

I would prefer not to have to wait until Update 17 for this.

Rushing is what got us into this mess in the first place. The game was rushed out and so as a result we had a plethora of bugs and balance issues, which are still plaguing the game at the moment.

Take as much time as you like guys, but get it right this time, please.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

Pseudonym wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
Glad to read this statement. But please, hurry up.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

shiva7663 wrote: »

I would prefer not to have to wait until Update 17 for this.

Rushing is what got us into this mess in the first place. The game was rushed out and so as a result we had a plethora of bugs and balance issues, which are still plaguing the game at the moment.

Take as much time as you like guys, but get it right this time, please.

By not rushing I'm guessing that means years based on the current speed of progress.

tordr86b16_ESO · September 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We are actively working on a plan

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

stop being abusive.

Artorious · September 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Rhakon wrote: »

A third resource for sprint,sneak,block and dodgeroll would be a good start.

I HATE hearing this as a solution SOOOOOOO much.

OK wish granted its on a separate bar finally.

Your abilities are STILL anti spam and when you do spam them you will RUN OUT OF STAMINA.

So you did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem.

Magicka users spam their spells and guess what...they Heavy Attack with Restro Staff and get back 10% Magicka then they can cast dark exchange or equilibrium and GET BACK Magicka and continue spamming.

Whats the downside to Magicka users doing this NONE its actually stupid for them NOT to.

You could give these same tools to Stamina users but then you still have another problem.

There a correct Magicka build and if your not using it your gimping yourself. If your NOT holding onto a Restro Staff you at least better have Equilibrium slotted.

If theres MUST HAVE then its because its OPed. Its not really a choice anymore.

Lets give 2handers 10% Stamina with every Heavy Attack...whats that do for bows and dual wield and Sword and Shield GIMPS THEM.

----

Sorry to get off-topic for a little bit, but I also HATE it SOOOOOOO much when people mistake (or ignore?) 'you're' with 'your', and then bother with other rules such as periods and capitalizations.

Back to the topic, at least the people you are complaining about, have opened an idea, it could lead to something, maybe something better, perhaps? You have contributed nothing but whining in your post. Please relax and don't emphasize words with CAPS too many times, it gets really annoying - thus my post.

Cheers

Pseudonym · September 2014

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
Glad to read this statement. But please, hurry up.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're still working on a PLAN?

FFS that should have been completed weeks ago, you should be well on the way to completing the IMPLEMENTATION by now.

Unbelievable, just unbelievable.

shiva7663 wrote: »

I would prefer not to have to wait until Update 17 for this.

Rushing is what got us into this mess in the first place. The game was rushed out and so as a result we had a plethora of bugs and balance issues, which are still plaguing the game at the moment.

Take as much time as you like guys, but get it right this time, please.

By not rushing I'm guessing that means years based on the current speed of progress.

You might think they're being incompetent, but take note that your complaints aren't original; they've been happening since the dawn of the MMO genre, so either all MMO developers are incompetent, or you simply don't understand the industry.

My guess is the latter.

Either way they'll sort these problems out sooner or later. Just be patient.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Artorious wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Rhakon wrote: »

A third resource for sprint,sneak,block and dodgeroll would be a good start.

I HATE hearing this as a solution SOOOOOOO much.

OK wish granted its on a separate bar finally.

Your abilities are STILL anti spam and when you do spam them you will RUN OUT OF STAMINA.

So you did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem.

Magicka users spam their spells and guess what...they Heavy Attack with Restro Staff and get back 10% Magicka then they can cast dark exchange or equilibrium and GET BACK Magicka and continue spamming.

Whats the downside to Magicka users doing this NONE its actually stupid for them NOT to.

You could give these same tools to Stamina users but then you still have another problem.

There a correct Magicka build and if your not using it your gimping yourself. If your NOT holding onto a Restro Staff you at least better have Equilibrium slotted.

If theres MUST HAVE then its because its OPed. Its not really a choice anymore.

Lets give 2handers 10% Stamina with every Heavy Attack...whats that do for bows and dual wield and Sword and Shield GIMPS THEM.

----

Sorry to get off-topic for a little bit, but I also HATE it SOOOOOOO much when people mistake (or ignore?) 'you're' with 'your', and then bother with other rules such as periods and capitalizations.

Back to the topic, at least the people you are complaining about, have opened an idea, it could lead to something, maybe something better, perhaps? You have contributed nothing but whining in your post. Please relax and don't emphasize words with CAPS too many times, it gets really annoying - thus my post.

Cheers

I have contributed a lot to the forums in general on the subject but its a waste time cause most of the time it just goes unacknowledged. As much it would be a waste of time here was well.

jelliedsoup · September 2014

Pseudonym wrote: »

You might think they're being incompetent, but take note that your complaints aren't original; they've been happening since the dawn of the MMO genre, so either all MMO developers are incompetent, or you simply don't understand the industry.

My guess is the latter.

Either way they'll sort these problems out sooner or later. Just be patient.

The "industry" is a little generic. They have the ability to analyse, test and implement changes within a reasonable period of time.My work includes the releasing of software, and I analyse, test issues myself so I do have an understanding of software development and release cycles, fixes etcin general. Labelling it an MMO thing is too easy.

I think the incompetence lies in the original design of stamina builds. Many people, not just myself, saw this during the beta stages.

If there's an International Standard which specifies how the design and releases of MMOs must be, point me to it.