GnatB wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

Before I start this, let it be noted that I am talking about NBs when their abilities are actually working, not when the skills didn't work properly.

I have a NB and two guildies I PvP with have V12 NBs and we usually get into some decent 3vX fights. One uses sword and shield with resto staff and the other uses destro staff with two handed. They have never complained about their damage being sub par to any other class or not having the surviveability in longer fights. I challenge a NB to prove to me that their class is under powered and needs a buff.

When people complain that what they are doing in PvP doesn't work it doesn't mean that they are under powered just that someone they fought has a build that beats theirs and they are too stubborn to change the "precious build my NB has to play" *cough cough* the bow/DW NBs

So, to translate to the common complaint. Mages work just fine, rogues are broken.

If your nightblade is intended as a Mage (or priest), you're good to go. If you're trying to play as a rogue, tough beans.

I came wanting to play a mixed Warlock-Assassin type character as I played my main character in Oblivion.
Disappointed to know that the Rogue archetype has such issues that it actually breaks the "decent" builds by proximity.

Can't play my intended mix of Stealthy DoTs because my DoTs break my Stealth.

LonePirate wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

I laugh at anybody who says NBs are not effective during PVP in Cyrodiil. My DK is killed by NBs more than any other class bar none. If a player knows the class and weapon skills, then NB might be the best class for PVP. Oh wait, that's Sorcerors. NBs are a solid second, though.

honestly, that's a l2play issue for you if you are getting beat by NBs with anything other than stealth bow attacks and the like.

There's zero reason a DK should ever go down in a fight versus a NB unless that NB is incredible and the DK is sub par.

I thought it was assumed the NBs were stealthed since they are easy targets when not stealthed. Most of the NBs in my journeys introduce themselves via stealth. I seldom encounter them otherwise. Maybe you play in an area where NBs roam the landscape openly and free of care. I know I sure don't.

Any NB not stealthed is an idiot or is a victim of circumstances beyond their control.

this may surprise you, but you don't stay stealthed when you attack someone. It's irrelevant whether they were stealthed before they said hi, do you not put forward any offense when they attack you or something?

Suntzu1414 wrote: »

as a VR12 NB. combat survivability (pvp) outside of certain builds (SnB / Resto), is limited. Eventhough NB is billed as high dps class, this is build around crit (mo). which is easily countered (by armor trait).

because of this easy counter, its makes the class downsides, self-heal(none) and Dark Cloak(very broken), a glaring problem.

But at least we have a solution that no other class has. We still can be deadly assassins, even if our enemies wear 7 Impen. Armor parts.

I like my Nightblade Assassin based of Magicka with:

Bar 1: Dual Swords
1. Ambush
2. Surprise Attack
3. Impale
4. Dark Cloak
5. Siphoning Strikes
6. Soul Tether

Bar 2: Resto Staff
1. Funnel Health
2. Rapid Regeneration
3. Healing Ward
4. Fear
5. Siphoning Strikes
6. Veil of Blades

I can be deadly out of the Shadows and still be usefull during keep battles with my Heals and Funnel Health DMG, as well as not so easy to kill in longer 1vs1 battles.
Even in smaller Gank Groups with other Bow or DW/2Hand Stealther I can perform an Assassination but can swith to heal if the Enemy gets reinforcment to fight.

Artemis wrote: »

You can't spam siphoning abilities in stamina builds. And NB is the class that relies on blades, so...

I think you've totally misunderstood what he's talking about. Look up Siphoning Attacks.

Marthenil wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

You can't spam siphoning abilities in stamina builds. And NB is the class that relies on blades, so...

I think you've totally misunderstood what he's talking about. Look up Siphoning Attacks.

I love SA, but the issue is, unless you want to hit them with wet noodles, it's just not on par with other resource management abilities.

Nah I disagree, with it on I'm still hitting like a train both with my stamina and my magic build. The damage reduction works out to be minor.

*That said, why we have to have a damage reduction at all is comical, it's like our Mark, why does that need to reduce our armour as well? I believe that's balance when DKs have to have a damage reduction when they use Dragon Blood, etc.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

*That said, why we have to have a damage reduction at all is comical, it's like our Mark, why does that need to reduce our armour as well? I believe that's balance when DKs have to have a damage reduction when they use Dragon Blood, etc.

I know right? It's like having magelight make you getting one shot when toggled :P

GnatB wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

Before I start this, let it be noted that I am talking about NBs when their abilities are actually working, not when the skills didn't work properly.

I have a NB and two guildies I PvP with have V12 NBs and we usually get into some decent 3vX fights. One uses sword and shield with resto staff and the other uses destro staff with two handed. They have never complained about their damage being sub par to any other class or not having the surviveability in longer fights. I challenge a NB to prove to me that their class is under powered and needs a buff.

When people complain that what they are doing in PvP doesn't work it doesn't mean that they are under powered just that someone they fought has a build that beats theirs and they are too stubborn to change the "precious build my NB has to play" *cough cough* the bow/DW NBs

So, to translate to the common complaint. Mages work just fine, rogues are broken.

If your nightblade is intended as a Mage (or priest), you're good to go. If you're trying to play as a rogue, tough beans.

To basically re state this whole thing. You can be whatever kind of NB you want. If you are good it will always be a viable option in PvP. If you use Resto or sword and shield you can compete with pretty much everyone and if you use both you can compete with 95% of people in PvP.

Stamina builds aren't very good not because stamina builds are awful. On the contrary they can be very effective against mages who rely on having magicka back from harness magicka. People dont ale stam builds though. They make hybrid builds. NBs have a couple good defensive moves and they cost a ton of magicka, so if you spec a hybrid or stamina heavy build it makes it really hard to get that ability off enough to save your life.


In summary: NBs can be just as good as the other classes when they use the same thing. Because certain builds work really well right now doesnt mean that your different build won't work. Stamina build just don't have the same synergies light armor magicka builds do. PvP is about killing people and STAYING ALIVE if you choose to give yourself no defense and rely on a broken stealth ability that has been broken for the entire time this game has been out then you will die and cry about it on the forums.

Ryzium wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

Before I start this, let it be noted that I am talking about NBs when their abilities are actually working, not when the skills didn't work properly.

I have a NB and two guildies I PvP with have V12 NBs and we usually get into some decent 3vX fights. One uses sword and shield with resto staff and the other uses destro staff with two handed. They have never complained about their damage being sub par to any other class or not having the surviveability in longer fights. I challenge a NB to prove to me that their class is under powered and needs a buff.

When people complain that what they are doing in PvP doesn't work it doesn't mean that they are under powered just that someone they fought has a build that beats theirs and they are too stubborn to change the "precious build my NB has to play" *cough cough* the bow/DW NBs

So, to translate to the common complaint. Mages work just fine, rogues are broken.

If your nightblade is intended as a Mage (or priest), you're good to go. If you're trying to play as a rogue, tough beans.

To basically re state this whole thing. You can be whatever kind of NB you want. If you are good it will always be a viable option in PvP. If you use Resto or sword and shield you can compete with pretty much everyone and if you use both you can compete with 95% of people in PvP.

Stamina builds aren't very good not because stamina builds are awful. On the contrary they can be very effective against mages who rely on having magicka back from harness magicka. People dont ale stam builds though. They make hybrid builds. NBs have a couple good defensive moves and they cost a ton of magicka, so if you spec a hybrid or stamina heavy build it makes it really hard to get that ability off enough to save your life.


In summary: NBs can be just as good as the other classes when they use the same thing. Because certain builds work really well right now doesnt mean that your different build won't work. Stamina build just don't have the same synergies light armor magicka builds do. PvP is about killing people and STAYING ALIVE if you choose to give yourself no defense and rely on a broken stealth ability that has been broken for the entire time this game has been out then you will die and cry about it on the forums.

I just can't agree with your last paragraph no matter how many time you repeat it. How can a NB be as good with a Sword and shield as a DK, skill being equal? First off both DK and Templar have passives for blocking so you are already at a disadvantage. You can spam funnel health and you still won't get the same health that the DK gets from one Dragon Blood and they get a burst heal, heal over time and stamina recovery from it. You can hold block and attack from distance but that DK can just reflect all those spells right back at you. Even if you stay at range they can shield charge you and burst you down and you have no burst heal. You can try to switch to Resto and use that ward but that is a couple of attacks before they blow through that. They have better ways to regain resources, especially if you are on defense trying to keep yourself alive. With talons + Searing Strike + Flame lash not only are you using up all your stamina trying to get away but they are ticking damage on you and building Ultimate in no time. Even a Templar can simply Toppling charge you to stay in range. Then with Blazing shield you either don't attack them or die trying, and if you do manage to get some damage on them they have a plethora of heals that don't require switching weapons. Other than a fear that can be blocked through, just like pretty much every other CC what does NB have that makes them superior with these same setups, especially going against classes that can deal out full damage with holding block the entire time?

Your build will work is not the same thing as just as good.

aco5712 wrote: »

Blur is actually used quite a bit, if you ever go dueling you will see it being used. I myself use it to stack with hist. Agony is a dumb skill and needs to be replaced with a shield. Path is utter rubbish too

Remove path put speed increase on

PBpsy wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why all the other classes are so darn good at sneaking.

Honestly nobody will be happy until all the classes are exactly the same with abilities that just have different names and do the exact same thing. It's getting close to that now anyway.

• NBs should be the only ones to sneak but be kinda squishy
• DKs should be the only ones to block insane amounts of damage with their shield, but have no AoEs and hit just "ok"
• Sorcs should have high damage rates but be ultra squishy
• And Temps should be great healers, ok at taking damage, and terrible at dishing out damage.

But the strategy right now is to make every class good at everything.

TESO is not and should not be a freaking standard constrained class mmo.

The "Play as you want" idea was that your class will not influence your role. This was every TES fan main concern when they introduced classess and they promised that in the end class will not be as constraining as in standard MMOs. This is what the devs should strive for. The problem is not that everybody can do everything, the problem is that they can't. There are no competitive DK healers for example or other class than Templars for that matter. There are also no truly effective stealth Temps and Dks either. There is no truly effective resilient NB for group pvp engagements even if in pve we can be great tanks.The list of things that can't be done is pretty long unfortunately.

If you cannot understand the inherent problems with an mmo that has no classes I can't help you plain and simple.

R0M2K wrote: »

Id like to know why Concealed/Surprise Attacks stuns fron invis in PvE but not in PvP.

It definitely does. It is part of the unbreakable cc bug that plenty of nbs use.

PBpsy wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why all the other classes are so darn good at sneaking.

Honestly nobody will be happy until all the classes are exactly the same with abilities that just have different names and do the exact same thing. It's getting close to that now anyway.

• NBs should be the only ones to sneak but be kinda squishy
• DKs should be the only ones to block insane amounts of damage with their shield, but have no AoEs and hit just "ok"
• Sorcs should have high damage rates but be ultra squishy
• And Temps should be great healers, ok at taking damage, and terrible at dishing out damage.

But the strategy right now is to make every class good at everything.

TESO is not and should not be a freaking standard constrained class mmo.

The "Play as you want" idea was that your class will not influence your role. This was every TES fan main concern when they introduced classess and they promised that in the end class will not be as constraining as in standard MMOs. This is what the devs should strive for. The problem is not that everybody can do everything, the problem is that they can't. There are no competitive DK healers for example or other class than Templars for that matter. There are also no truly effective stealth Temps and Dks either. There is no truly effective resilient NB for group pvp engagements even if in pve we can be great tanks.The list of things that can't be done is pretty long unfortunately.

If you cannot understand the inherent problems with an mmo that has no classes I can't help you plain and simple.

If you can't understand the inherent problems with a TES game where classes are too constraining I can't help you.

This game is an MMO first and TES second you would think that this long into the game you would understand that.

Ryzium wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

Ryzium wrote: »

Before I start this, let it be noted that I am talking about NBs when their abilities are actually working, not when the skills didn't work properly.

I have a NB and two guildies I PvP with have V12 NBs and we usually get into some decent 3vX fights. One uses sword and shield with resto staff and the other uses destro staff with two handed. They have never complained about their damage being sub par to any other class or not having the surviveability in longer fights. I challenge a NB to prove to me that their class is under powered and needs a buff.

When people complain that what they are doing in PvP doesn't work it doesn't mean that they are under powered just that someone they fought has a build that beats theirs and they are too stubborn to change the "precious build my NB has to play" *cough cough* the bow/DW NBs

So, to translate to the common complaint. Mages work just fine, rogues are broken.

If your nightblade is intended as a Mage (or priest), you're good to go. If you're trying to play as a rogue, tough beans.

To basically re state this whole thing. You can be whatever kind of NB you want. If you are good it will always be a viable option in PvP. If you use Resto or sword and shield you can compete with pretty much everyone and if you use both you can compete with 95% of people in PvP.

Stamina builds aren't very good not because stamina builds are awful. On the contrary they can be very effective against mages who rely on having magicka back from harness magicka. People don't ale stam builds though. They make hybrid builds. NBs have a couple good defensive moves and they cost a ton of magicka, so if you spec a hybrid or stamina heavy build it makes it really hard to get that ability off enough to save your life.


In summary: NBs can be just as good as the other classes when they use the same thing. Because certain builds work really well right now doesn't mean that your different build won't work. Stamina build just don't have the same synergies light armor magicka builds do. PvP is about killing people and STAYING ALIVE if you choose to give yourself no defense and rely on a broken stealth ability that has been broken for the entire time this game has been out then you will die and cry about it on the forums.

I just can't agree with your last paragraph no matter how many time you repeat it. How can a NB be as good with a Sword and shield as a DK, skill being equal? First off both DK and Templar have passives for blocking so you are already at a disadvantage. You can spam funnel health and you still won't get the same health that the DK gets from one Dragon Blood and they get a burst heal, heal over time and stamina recovery from it. You can hold block and attack from distance but that DK can just reflect all those spells right back at you. Even if you stay at range they can shield charge you and burst you down and you have no burst heal. You can try to switch to Resto and use that ward but that is a couple of attacks before they blow through that. They have better ways to regain resources, especially if you are on defense trying to keep yourself alive. With talons + Searing Strike + Flame lash not only are you using up all your stamina trying to get away but they are ticking damage on you and building Ultimate in no time. Even a Templar can simply Toppling charge you to stay in range. Then with Blazing shield you either don't attack them or die trying, and if you do manage to get some damage on them they have a plethora of heals that don't require switching weapons. Other than a fear that can be blocked through, just like pretty much every other CC what does NB have that makes them superior with these same setups, especially going against classes that can deal out full damage with holding block the entire time?

Your build will work is not the same thing as just as good.

I am in Legend for people who aren't aware Legend is the largest dueling guild in the game. I have seen numerous times a DK lose to a NB and not some new DK vs a veteran NB. You summon shades which I believe gives you 30% damage reduction to the target, so without block you cut dps by 30% which is way more than the DK block an additional 15%. Most DKs as you said hold shield to DPS, GREAT!!! let them, shade will tear through their stamina and on top of this you dont use swallow soul you use surprise attack and shield charge which hit stamina even harder and cant be reflected. resto staff bar you use good ol combat prayer and healing ward with harness magicka. take 50% less damage from flame whip and regen some magicka when they try to burst you. You cant agree with what I am saying because if you were put in a situation where you either died repeatedly or got better you would get better. NBs are good classes, they are not as easy to use as DKs or have the insane surviveability as a templar, they dont have the mobility and control of a sorc. YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DO HAVE? A good way to mtigate damage without even need to use a shield, they have passives that give them great increases to health, an ability that they can use in a tight situation to get some resources back, and double take, which in unison with elude can single handedly ruin DKs and Temps. When you spam an ability 6 or 7 times and it only hits 3 or 4 you lose all that magicka/stamina and you lose what? a little bit extra blocking?

You can beat a DK with a NB, you can beat any class with a NB. You have to spec your build against what you are fighting, if you are ganking against a DK who is bursting heavy damage and blocking until you are low on resources you will lose every time. Doesn't mean NBs are bad, though I do think DKs are a ways ahead of all the other classes in terms of synergy with abilities and passives, it just means that you aren't specking for the right situations, ganking people is easy don't speck your build to do that and you will be fine and when you get good at it more skilled than the people who hold block and spam abilities.

Anyone can beat anyone less skilled but I'm talking about when skill is equal. Vet level does not equal skill, skill equals skill. First off shades only do 15% even if you take the morhp that gives you two, they do less damage with two but cut down the stamina quicker. The thing is a good DK will still never run out of stamina. Every Earthern Heart ability gives them back stamina, Dragon blood gives them a boost to stamina recovery and they can use an ultimate that cost 135 ult to get all stats back in a huge amount. I have sent multiple sets of shades at a DK and sat in stealth just to watch how long they can block, each lasts 20 second and they blocked every single one without stopping for 40 seconds. They never ran out of stamina. Surprise attack is mitigated by Armor, which they also have a boost to, and with block you barely ding them with it even from stealth and behind them. You and your buddy keep saying well they are not as good as DK for this and they are not as good a temp for that or sorc for this then follow it up with another post saying they are just as good as any other class with the same setup.

What is this great damage mitigator? Shades that do ~10 dps and mitigate 15% damage? Templars and DK's get that by default just blocking, they don't have to spend magicka to get it and it doesn't even look at the damage shields and armors they both have. We only get extra health with certain abilities slotted. By far most of our passives are focused on stealth and crit, both of which have questionable use in PvP especially in the way you are talking about using it. Are shining star is a skill that makes you hit with a wet noodle and allows resources to trickle back in but good luck not getting killed because you are not holding block when doing it.

You keep making the argument that NB are equal to everyone else, then say except x,y,z but they are not bad though. No one is arguing they are bad. Not as good because of x,y,z means they are not just as good as other classes with the same setups. Across the board others classes passives are far better for everything but stealth and crit. I would argue most classes have far better default attacks than NBs do and are far less easy to counter.

*I am purposefully keeping Sorc out of my arguments because I have done a lot of PvP with DK and Templar and none with Sorc. For the record I have done about 10X as much with my NB as either the DK or Sorc. As of last night I was around number 70 in Thornblade US using 100% stamina/medium armor NB, nothing to write home about, no chance of becoming Emp but enough PvP experience to know what I am doing.

Ryzium wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

What I don't understand is why all the other classes are so darn good at sneaking.

Honestly nobody will be happy until all the classes are exactly the same with abilities that just have different names and do the exact same thing. It's getting close to that now anyway.

• NBs should be the only ones to sneak but be kinda squishy
• DKs should be the only ones to block insane amounts of damage with their shield, but have no AoEs and hit just "ok"
• Sorcs should have high damage rates but be ultra squishy
• And Temps should be great healers, ok at taking damage, and terrible at dishing out damage.

But the strategy right now is to make every class good at everything.

TESO is not and should not be a freaking standard constrained class mmo.

The "Play as you want" idea was that your class will not influence your role. This was every TES fan main concern when they introduced classess and they promised that in the end class will not be as constraining as in standard MMOs. This is what the devs should strive for. The problem is not that everybody can do everything, the problem is that they can't. There are no competitive DK healers for example or other class than Templars for that matter. There are also no truly effective stealth Temps and Dks either. There is no truly effective resilient NB for group pvp engagements even if in pve we can be great tanks.The list of things that can't be done is pretty long unfortunately.

If you cannot understand the inherent problems with an mmo that has no classes I can't help you plain and simple.

If you can't understand the inherent problems with a TES game where classes are too constraining I can't help you.

This game is an MMO first and TES second you would think that this long into the game you would understand that.

It is both and for the most part the devs tried to make it both equally. The multiple role or no set role ''class'' system was one of their goals and what they advertised this this game will have. For the most part they actually succeed in this goal.For example in this game each class is perfectly viable to fill the tank role for any vet dungeon. All classes can go pure dps and all classes can get sneak attack crits and all classes can heal. I actually played a sneak attack DK for a while,I would take lava whip over Surprise Attack any day .The only problem is that some play styles are vastly imbalanced depending on the class and depending on the situation. It is very easy to play a turtling NB that can just chip away at large packs of mobs in pve and I would say almost on par with a DK. In pvp that play style doesn't work for a NB at all but it is still possible for the DK.

The devs are actually still striving for this goal and recognize some of the class/role imbalances. Why do you think the class free spellcrafting system is developed?

Marthenil wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Artemis wrote: »

You can't spam siphoning abilities in stamina builds. And NB is the class that relies on blades, so...

I think you've totally misunderstood what he's talking about. Look up Siphoning Attacks.

I love SA, but the issue is, unless you want to hit them with wet noodles, it's just not on par with other resource management abilities.

Lol seriously? Siphoning Attacks only drop your dps by 11% (since it drops spell/weapon damage by 22%, and this is half your dps). A drop of 11% is zilch when it comes to sustained pvp combat.

Some people picked it namely because they never wanted to deal with healing and expected it to excel in damage dealing+cc (kinda like a rogue. or if you sacrifice CC - closer to warriors).

A pure damage setup is impossible for sustained combat. This is because the defense of players is way too high. A skill rotation that does 900 sustained dps in PVE might only do 200 sustained dps on a player that stacks mitigation spells. From this perspectively, it is clear that survivability and sustainability cannot be ignored.