Solving the stamina build issue

deepseamk20b14_ESO · September 2014

Let's face it. Magicka builds are better than stamina builds. I think we all know this by now. Some stamina builds can be okay, but never able to fully compete in PvE or PvP with magicka builds for some simple reasons. Sprinting takes stamina, blocking takes stamina, breaking CC takes stamina, sneaking takes stamina, and of course skills take stamina. Magicka, well, only supplies magicka skills. I don't know what person decided this was a good idea during development but he/she should be fired. You can look at some of the most popular builds out there and they have maybe ONE stamina based weapon skill on the bar. That's because putting to many stamina based skills on your bar is not worth it at the moment.

Fix? Another bar. Have weapon skills take from a different pool. Call it whatever the heck they want. SP, WP, SK, whatever....make it scale to weapon skills like magicka scales to magic based skills. Problem solved. Makes weapon oriented builds more viable and let's people ACTUALLY play how they want instead of having to run around with the same builds as everyone else to stay competitive. Leave stamina for sprint, block, break cc, and sneak only. Magicka for spells. (Insert fancy name here) for weapon skills.

spoqster · September 2014

They'll never do that. The Elder Scrolls games have three bars.

But I do see your point in terms of utilities consuming stamina in addition to the skills. Having these utilities all come out of the same pool as the stamina skills is a disadvantage. A magicka build can sprint, roll-dodge or block a little and still have a full magicka bar for their skills. There are other ways to fix that, though.

Decrease the cost of sprinting, roll-dodging and blocking
Increase the cost of magicka abilities
A more drastic way would be to apply the same 1.5 scaling (roughly) that they applied to health to stamina as well (with respect to attribute points and enchantment values)

All of these variants would be very tricky to implement. The third option would result in a huge uproar by the community and would single out the magicka attribute. Although I never really understood why they singled out health in the first place. One might think they could have left it at the classical 10/10/10 attribute plus and just decreased the damage of everything by a third. But they'll have their good reasons for that, I bet they've tested it to death.

I suppose a mix of the first two should do the trick, though. A balance should be achieved, when a stamina build can do as many utilities as a magicka build on base stamina and still have enough stamina left to fire as many stamina skills as a magicka build could fire comparable magicka skills on a full bar.

But getting there is a tremendously complex process and ZOS has much more data on this than us players do. I'm sure they'll get there, just give them a little time.

Draxuul · September 2014

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Fix? Another bar. Have weapon skills take from a different pool. Call it whatever the heck they want. SP, WP, SK, whatever....make it scale to weapon skills like magicka scales to magic based skills. Problem solved. Makes weapon oriented builds more viable and let's people ACTUALLY play how they want instead of having to run around with the same builds as everyone else to stay competitive. Leave stamina for sprint, block, break cc, and sneak only. Magicka for spells. (Insert fancy name here) for weapon skills.

Would be ok if this game had a different name but it's an Elder Scrolls game and they have to stick to the way things have been done in Elder Scrolls in the past otherwise they're gonna have a whole bunch of pissed off people .

Plus i could be wrong but i'm pretty sure that whenever Zenimax wants to do something differently, they need Bethesda's concent to do it.

I'm pretty sure Bethesda is supervising the development of this game up to a certain point to ensure that ESO does justice to the name "Edler Scrolls"

Draxuul

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2014

I don't think the developers planned the game for someone to create a full stamina build. The class abilities are all magica based, and they are usually stronger than the weapon skills.

It's pretty obvious to see that the developers expect players to build their characters around class skills and then throw in a few stamina skills to even out the character. They don't want you to rely on only weapon based skills. You can still play how you want, but don't expect every build to be the best.

Lizelle · September 2014

The only other solution would be to have all weapon abilities use Magicka too. Then you keep your 3 bars (I don't agree with this argument though), have stamina for block/dodge/roll and still have your Magicka for all your abilities...

They'd have to redo medium armor and probably other gear a bit if that was the case... but still would be worth it. At lest people could play melee or bow DPS if they wanted.

AshySamurai · September 2014

I have nothing more to say. This idea doesn't new! Please, stop.

Lizelle · September 2014

It can't be dead until it's fixed.... it's still an issue so talking about it is still worth while.

AshySamurai · September 2014

@Lizelle‌ Talking about any issue - it's ok. Create a tonns of identical topics about the same issue - beating a dead horse. And nothing new in this topic. This "fix" already discussed in other topics.

Phinix1 · September 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think the developers planned the game for someone to create a full stamina build. The class abilities are all magica based, and they are usually stronger than the weapon skills.

It's pretty obvious to see that the developers expect players to build their characters around class skills and then throw in a few stamina skills to even out the character. They don't want you to rely on only weapon based skills. You can still play how you want, but don't expect every build to be the best.

Problem with that theory is they made weapon abilities scale damage based on stamina, and class abilities scale damage based on magicka. That means that to play as you suggest, with mostly class skills and some weapon abilities thrown in, is basically to waste a slot on your bar for a weapon ability that does crap damage.

Also, with the exception of a charge which most classes already get, the stamina weapon utility abilities simply aren't worth it either.

Meanwhile, a staff user gets to have powerful weapon AND class abilities.

Balance in this game is really terrible.

Faulgor · September 2014

Okay, I'll try to sum up once more why I don't like this 'fix'

1. This would cement stamina-builds as nothing more than stamina-mages. If mages and warriors don't have distinct playstyles and advantages, there's even less of a reason to go for stamina.

2. If you only need stamina for dodging, blocking and sprinting, there is little incentive to spec into it compared to your damage resource pools, either magicka or a new resource. Being a great dodger is not enough to win fights.

3. Current magicka builds will suffer no drawbacks, but current weapon builds will have to focus on two resource pools to have the same effect.

4. It's not very TES.

5. There are better solutions.

6. There is already a fourth resource, it's called Ultimate. Introducing another one would make things needlessly complex. If weapon abilities were to consume ultimate instead of stamina, this would actually make for a distinct fighting style compared to mages or a new magicka-like resource bar for weapon abilities.

cuz_mike200 · September 2014

Dude, use Medium Armor Passives, potions, food, enchanted armor and jewelry along with some Mundus Stone Effects that may help with stamina builds, I am not sure which ones do since I mainly focus on magic. Hope this helps.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think the developers planned the game for someone to create a full stamina build. The class abilities are all magica based, and they are usually stronger than the weapon skills.

It's pretty obvious to see that the developers expect players to build their characters around class skills and then throw in a few stamina skills to even out the character. They don't want you to rely on only weapon based skills. You can still play how you want, but don't expect every build to be the best.

Said this a few times now, it's blatantly clear that they intended weapons as gap fillers in your build to even them out and never intended us to go all out stamina. OH the rage that followed.

Mondo · September 2014

So then whats the Point in playing something else as Light armour and stick?

Phinix1 · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Said this a few times now, it's blatantly clear that they intended weapons as gap fillers in your build to even them out and never intended us to go all out stamina. OH the rage that followed.

Well, yeah. Because that is an incredibly lazy and one-sided design decision.

If that were the case, why do weapons have any damage abilities? If they were meant as gap fillers, and their damage was going to scale off a stat that made them basically useless for damage when everyone specs magicka for class skills, why not just give them all utility skills?

Without going full soft-capped stamina, which you say ZOS never intended anyone to do, all weapon damage aside from Staff is pretty useless.

Stx · September 2014

The #1 issue with balancing mage builds vs. melee builds is that ALL class abilities scale with magicka and spell power. This fact makes it very hard to make a build that doesn't stack magicka, because class skills are essential for survival, utility, and damage as well.

The first step to balancing this game would be to split class skills into two resources. "Melee" class skills like Veiled strike and biting jabs need to scale off of stamina, weapon power, and weapon crit for damage. They should also have their costs reduced by a lot, or just make it so they cost stamina.

Its not a perfect solution, and may end up taking away some of the diverse magicka builds out there.

But one thing is for certain... as long as all class skills cost magicka, and scale off of magicka/spell power, stamina builds will be crap.

NCML · September 2014

If a mage puts all his abilities into magic, his magic will be stronger and he will be able to use his abilities more frequently. The mage will still have a smaller amount of stamina to dip into as a backup for rolling, sprinting, blocking, sneak, and CC break.

Let's flip this around...

If a warrior puts all his abilities into stamina, his stamina will be stronger and he will be able to use his abilities more frequently. The warrior will still have a smaller amount of magic to dip into as a backup for class abilities.

There's where stamina users are doing it wrong. They want to play a pure stamina build as an attack class, when their real advantage is avoiding damage. Being able to roll more, sprint more, block more, sneak more, and CC break more IS an advantage. I suggest you learn to play.

Sarenia · September 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't think the developers planned the game for someone to create a full stamina build. The class abilities are all magica based, and they are usually stronger than the weapon skills.

It's pretty obvious to see that the developers expect players to build their characters around class skills and then throw in a few stamina skills to even out the character. They don't want you to rely on only weapon based skills. You can still play how you want, but don't expect every build to be the best.

This has "lol's", but honestly I have to wonder if it's correct to an extent. There is another facet that isn't explored in this post though. If you're one of those lazy people who only reads 10 words at a time, scroll to the bold below.

The class abilities were obviously designing around magicka for a reason -- to emphasize magicka as the origin of class powers.

Stamina is obviously intended to be an auxiliary resource, by the original design. We aren't intended to have purely stamina based builds (whilst still being viable from a min/max perspective).

In D&D, Tamriel would be called a "high magic" world. Literally everybody can cast spells. Everybody. Magic isn't rare -- Merlin would just be another guy on the block. Few can truly master it, but everybody can manage the basics if they are taught or have some innate talent. I think the confusion about stamina vs magic comes from our normal understanding of stamina as a physical trait, but Tamriel isn't Earth -- even dumb Barbarians could summon a flame to light their bonfire.

Having said that, there are obviously some balancing issues with stamina that need to be addressed. Rolling/dodging and even blocking should probably take a set amount of stamina, rather than a percentage, which penalizes stamina stacked people.

It seems to me, that simply shifting from a % based cost for some things, to a set cost, would really help to make stamina centric builds more valuable.

Stx · September 2014

Yes because being able to dodge, sprint, and block longer(mages block plenty long) is totally on par with being able to spam survival skills like Dragon's Blood, Sun Shield, or Bolt Escape... or being able to spam heal skills.

I believe that stamina builds can be competitive in small scale pvp, and when played well can be effective. But you must be delusional to suggest the benefits of having a larger stamina pool are equal to that of having a large magicka pool. Don't be silly.

NCML · September 2014

Why would you need to spam a healing spell if you avoid getting hit in the first place? You wouldn't.

Stx · September 2014

Sarenia wrote: »

It seems to me, that simply shifting from a % based cost for some things, to a set cost, would really help to make stamina centric builds more valuable.[/center]

I honestly can't believe that they didn't always cost a set amount... mind boggling. It's like the one advantage being a stamina player would give you, but they thought that would be too good or something.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · September 2014

@deepseamk20b14_ESO

I partially agree with you. Given the amount of stamina is needed just to do basic things to survive in armour other than Medium, we need Stamina to scale better.

The way to fix the Stamina-Magicka is simple.
Scale all the buffs/attributes/enchantments on Stamina the same way as Health.

Heavily reduce the cost of dodge not only for medium but for heavy armour also.

Because the worst CC out there are the various roots, especially Talons. Which not only can drain completely your Stamina trying to break from them, and you get no immunity if you do so, while it's cost to cast is pitiful and are spammable. All CC abilities should have their cost doubled if not trippled, to bring them in line with the cost to break them at least. If not more since they can be spammed.

We need more Stamina & weapon damage based sets. The only heavy set worthy out there, that has rings/necklace focused on Stamina build, is the Ravager set and costs almost 1.3 million alliance currency.

While the is only one crafted set, that focuses on Stamina damage. And no good VR12 drops.

Can we make a good stamina build atm? Yes. But only for PvP, where we need Imperial or Redguard race and the Ravager set as absolute basics. However all classes can work with it for support with Magicka based abilities. Especially NB and SC.

(please note for pve 1-50 stamina buil, regardless race is absolute fine, but not for VR).

Kypho · September 2014

Draxuul wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Fix? Another bar. Have weapon skills take from a different pool. Call it whatever the heck they want. SP, WP, SK, whatever....make it scale to weapon skills like magicka scales to magic based skills. Problem solved. Makes weapon oriented builds more viable and let's people ACTUALLY play how they want instead of having to run around with the same builds as everyone else to stay competitive. Leave stamina for sprint, block, break cc, and sneak only. Magicka for spells. (Insert fancy name here) for weapon skills.

Would be ok if this game had a different name but it's an Elder Scrolls game and they have to stick to the way things have been done in Elder Scrolls in the past otherwise they're gonna have a whole bunch of pissed off people .

Plus i could be wrong but i'm pretty sure that whenever Zenimax wants to do something differently, they need Bethesda's concent to do it.

I'm pretty sure Bethesda is supervising the development of this game up to a certain point to ensure that ESO does justice to the name "Edler Scrolls"

Draxuul

Bethesda is smoking green then, since this is not like Elder Scrolls. ESO had no classes, YOU made class, YOU choose if you go magic, one handed and magic, 2 handed, DW etc. No such heavly UNBALLANCED classes like OPlar, and DK.

You made a Sorcerer who had *** defense, and not OP DMG, you could choose that you go 2h spell for dmg, or 1h spell, 1h whatever, even heals so medium dmg, medium heal, or full heal and no dmg. THATS *** ballance.
Or made medium armor sneaker and speed, or heavy armor 2h badass dmg dealer but slow attack speed, or heavy +1h and shield, what had fast attack but less damage, and no godlike tankingbullshit. You was able to bash out enemy from forever blocking....

ESO has nothing to do with Ballance, just unballanced crap combatsystem. with super healer blazeshielders, and halfgod tanking whip fgs, BS cloaker bugblades, useless pet spawner fragmenters. Bethesda should just sink this, or kick the a$$ of the developers to do something. Hire someone who can do the job or whatever is needed to fix this utterly BS crap

(as for pve.... pve is so easy, that your pets could do it.... you cant ballance a game for pve... or just remove pvp all together...)

Soloeus · September 2014

here is a better solution: stop restricting yourself to "stamina build" and pretending it should be as good as a properly built character, geared, spec'd and fully prepared. You have to get your gear set, traits, enchantments, and passives to work toward the build you are using. Stamina Users are hitting great DPS and if you aren't that isn't a balance problem its a "you problem."

Sorcerers are underpowered and Mages Fury needs to do 3x damage and bolt escape should make us invisible and immune to cc for 10 seconds when used.

kitsinni · September 2014

I recently switched back to a Stamina Build and one thing I found interesting is you just get less stamina. There are so many passives that boost your magicka, I'm assuming because class skills are Magicka based they also boost Magicka. There are really not that many that boost Stamina. Even Mages guild adds Magicka while neither undaunted or figher's guild buff Stamina. It was really easy for me to hit overcharged Magicka on any of my characters with all attributes in to health, even with sets on Stamina I had to move attribute points in to Stamina to hit overcharge even with food buffs.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

If that were the case, why do weapons have any damage abilities?

Wut? That makes no sense. The point is that weapons are meant to even out a class or build.

Lacking range as a DK? Slot a bow or a staff. Lacking direct heals as a Nightblade? You'll need a Resto staff then, or maybe you just need more survivability in combat, take a shield then. And so on.

I'm not saying that's a good thing, or that I like it, but that is blatantly what they are going for. They never really intended anyone to think that slotting nothing but stamina abilities was a good idea.

Kego · September 2014

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Let's face it. Magicka builds are better than stamina builds. I think we all know this by now. Some stamina builds can be okay, but never able to fully compete in PvE or PvP with magicka builds for some simple reasons.

Show me a Magicka Build that hits from 30y range out of stealth with ~1.600 followed by 600 Heavy Attack and 400 Venom Arrow, netting in 2.600DMG Instant to the enemy.

Stamina can compete with Magicka in every content expect Trails.

kitsinni · September 2014

Kego wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Let's face it. Magicka builds are better than stamina builds. I think we all know this by now. Some stamina builds can be okay, but never able to fully compete in PvE or PvP with magicka builds for some simple reasons.

Show me a Magicka Build that hits from 30y range out of stealth with ~1.600 followed by 600 Heavy Attack and 400 Venom Arrow, netting in 2.600DMG Instant to the enemy.

Stamina can compete with Magicka in every content expect Trails.

While that is a good combo and is very strong currently you are relying on all that to happen. I have had stealth attacks behind a target that don't even crit, I have had my snipe be dodged plenty of times, If the target is high on armor you are not going to hit for half of that and if it is a DK with Dragon Scales up you just killed yourself. And that is running overcharged weapon damage and 2550 stamina and a nightblade that does extra damage out of stealth. What you are describing is kind of the perfect scenario at the highest damage point with nothing going wrong.

Also another key is that 2600 damage doesn't kill most targets and one Green Dragon Blood after all of that and you lose the fight.

khele23eb17_ESO · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

If that were the case, why do weapons have any damage abilities?

Wut? That makes no sense. The point is that weapons are meant to even out a class or build.

Lacking range as a DK? Slot a bow or a staff. Lacking direct heals as a Nightblade? You'll need a Resto staff then, or maybe you just need more survivability in combat, take a shield then. And so on.

Really? Youd want to even out a high magicka build by using a bow? Anything but a staff (which is in a way a magicka weapon already) would hinder you rather than buff you. So no... I dont buy it. I dont think the devs designed the game for weapons to be gap fillers only. The game has stamina/weapon dmg oriented gear sets. Its got multiple weapon skills that do nothing for a magicka build, provide no synergy or buffs for it. It has ultimates scaling off magicka or stamina, whichever's higher. Its allows you to stack either stamina or magicka to the exact same level and buff them equally with food. It has a weapon dmg cap which is actually higher than the spell dmg cap. One of 3 armor types/skill lines one is dedicated to stamina (another one to magicka and one to who the hell knows what) with perks requiring you to wear 5+ pieces making sure you cant really excel with magicka (why is this even here if stamina skills are only fillers?). And so on...

I'm not saying that's a good thing, or that I like it, but that is blatantly what they are going for. They never really intended anyone to think that slotting nothing but stamina abilities was a good idea.

Yes, thats why devs blatantly stated on several occasions that they are aware of the stamina issue and that theyre working on buffing stamina builds. Also its not about using stamina skills exclusively. Its about having weapons skills which define your playstyle and be the core of your build with magicka skills supplementing them for utility.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

It's like you've literally gone out of your way to take offence, to get worked up and to miss the point.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Yes, thats why devs blatantly stated on several occasions that they are aware of the stamina issue and that theyre working on buffing stamina builds. Also its not about using stamina skills exclusively. Its about having weapons skills which define your playstyle and be the core of your build with magicka skills supplementing them for utility.

This one is a classic, you start by claiming I'm wrong by stating the devs say they are working on stamina builds, THEN totally change your mind and claim it's not about that anyway so totally ignoring the point of the post I made so that you can have a rant instead.

I was answering a single point, made by someone else and not you, over a series of posts. What the hell is it with these forums? If you want to join in, at least try and read up on what you're replying to.

I didn't say it was a good thing.
I didn't say I liked it.
I didn't say I wanted it this way.
I didn't say I wanted to to stay this way.

GnatB · September 2014

Stx wrote: »

The #1 issue with balancing mage builds vs. melee builds is that ALL class abilities scale with magicka and spell power. This fact makes it very hard to make a build that doesn't stack magicka, because class skills are essential for survival, utility, and damage as well.

Have to disagree on the first half. It isn't a problem that all spell school (a.k.a. class) abilities scale with magicka/spell power. The problem is that they scale better.

I'd have to argue that weapon skills should simply do more damage than magic school (class) spells because... Weapon. Hello.

IMO that's the single biggest failing with ESO. Magical skills seem to offer far better utility (which is ok) but also generally superior damage (not so ok)

I'd be inclined to argue that tweaking the damage scaling of weapon abilities such that stamina builds simply do more damage, (but have less utility) that would address much of the problem.

Sure, leave 'em the same pool. But if stamina abilities hit harder enough, it'd still be worth it.

khele23eb17_ESO · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

It's like you've literally gone out of your way to take offence, to get worked up and to miss the point.

Why would you say I took offence or got worked up? Because I didnt agree with you and replied to your post with more than 2 sentences?

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Yes, thats why devs blatantly stated on several occasions that they are aware of the stamina issue and that theyre working on buffing stamina builds. Also its not about using stamina skills exclusively. Its about having weapons skills which define your playstyle and be the core of your build with magicka skills supplementing them for utility.

This one is a classic, you start by claiming I'm wrong by stating the devs say they are working on stamina builds, THEN totally change your mind and claim it's not about that anyway so totally ignoring the point of the post I made so that you can have a rant instead.

I did not change my mind and my statements are not mutually exclusive (yet you seem to imply they somehow are.) I did not ignore the point of your post. But maybe you missed mine because you decided not acknowledge 2/3 of my reply even existed. I didnt start with what you quoted here. I started with:

Really? Youd want to even out a high magicka build by using a bow? Anything but a staff (which is in a way a magicka weapon already) would hinder you rather than buff you. So no... I dont buy it. I dont think the devs designed the game for weapons to be gap fillers only. The game has stamina/weapon dmg oriented gear sets. Its got multiple weapon skills that do nothing for a magicka build, provide no synergy or buffs for it. It has ultimates scaling off magicka or stamina, whichever's higher. Its allows you to stack either stamina or magicka to the exact same level and buff them equally with food. It has a weapon dmg cap which is actually higher than the spell dmg cap. One of 3 armor types/skill lines one is dedicated to stamina (another one to magicka and one to who the hell knows what) with perks requiring you to wear 5+ pieces making sure you cant really excel with magicka (why is this even here if stamina skills are only fillers?). And so on...

in reply to your:

Wut? That makes no sense. The point is that weapons are meant to even out a class or build.

Lacking range as a DK? Slot a bow or a staff. Lacking direct heals as a Nightblade? You'll need a Resto staff then, or maybe you just need more survivability in combat, take a shield then. And so on.

I was answering a single point, made by someone else and not you, over a series of posts. What the hell is it with these forums? If you want to join in, at least try and read up on what you're replying to.

I was also answering a single point of your discussion. Didnt you say you thought the devs designed the game with the intention of weapon skills being merely fillers? Because thats what the bulk of my reply, which you cut out, related to.

Now Ill give you that I was imprecise when dividing your post and when you read my reply it might seem like I claim stamina-only builds are a good idea in the current meta. Youre quite right - theyre not. But you went further than that and said stamina skills have been purporsefully designed as fillers. Thats what I disagree with and I listed the proof you can readily find in game.

I could have been clearer, my bad. What you describe as an unrelated rant however was me pointing out we have somewhat different expectations of stamina builds. For me it doesnt have to be a skill bar filled with stamina skills only but your main resource pool should be stamina and your core DD abilities should be powered with that resource. I dont see why you should pass on magicka based buffs/utilities which synergize with weapon skills.

I didn't say it was a good thing.
I didn't say I liked it.
I didn't say I wanted it this way.
I didn't say I wanted to to stay this way.

Can you quote the part where I claim you like it or support it?