A word of Caution on AOE Caps

Huntler · September 2014

So if you spend any time on this forum you'll notice people circle jerk over the almighty removal of aoe caps and it being the savior they have all prayed and dream for. To put it bluntly, it won't be. Sorry guys, its just not and we are not thinking clearly about some of the implications. Will it possibly have some effects that we consider good? Maybe. And I stress maybe. Likely it might help spread out the blob, but in reality its just going to make the elite guild groups absolutely DECIMATE zergs (which I am happy with...but I imagine the general population is going to hate and be driven away in droves by this).

On another note, you remove AOE caps... give me 6 players who know what they are doing and how to play... and you can send 80 lemmings at us in a keep and I promise you they will never, ever take that keep. Maybe if they are smart lemmings i'll need 8-10.

I'm just trying to bring up this topic as a caution, while everyone complains about aoe caps everyone benefits from it at times as well. I would love to have the power to aoe 24 people all standing on top of each other at the same time... it will feel soooo good. But people will rage, people will die very, very fast, and people will have complete other reasons to hate pvp. Good luck getting through a breach alive with some decent players coordinating aoe you'll be virtually obliterating zergs as they run through close corners (which yes can be a good thing, but can also be a bad thing).

TLDR.... AOE cap removal may have consequences you guys are not realizing.... coming from a guy who would love AOE caps to be removed.... With zeni currently testing aoe cap changes my bet if they are smart is they will likely just raise the cap (somewhere around 8-12 most likely). A complete removal will be quite devastating with unintended consequences.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

The consequences of the removal of caps as been argued and debated. Most people for the removal of caps simply look at DAoC and GW2 and say see the solution is easy.

Our PVP is set up on the premises of a 6 man cap. Its been pointed out time and time again that these zerg blobs CAN have HAVE been defeated by smaller groups of players.

Certain things like capturing resources and keeps will become frustrating when a 100 people are inside capturing a keep just to be trolled and kill on site and almost instantly by what 6 people. That doesn't equal fun at all.

Aside from the blobbing issues.........PVP in a whole is amazing amounts of fun. Then there were the "broken" abilities the uncapped ones. People screamed in outrage of these abilities only to find they were never capped in the 1st place.

Had ZOS implemented the game perfectly at their 1st go and had all the caps in place as should be on all abilities nobody would have been the wiser for LONG LONG time about the caps.

The caps issue is another one that will never be happily resolved as there seems to be only 2 sides to the fence.

Huntler · September 2014

And don't get me started on what things like bat swarm will do to people with no caps.... if there is one thing people complain about almost as much as aoe caps its that everyone is a vampire bat swarming O.o .

I just look at all this complaining about the AOE caps and thinking man these people can't possibly comprehend how balance will change (and in many ways unforseeable)... and they think it will be the panacea that cures all. Small groups wipe zerg blobs all the time regardless (even with AOE caps) and its just as sweet.

Insurrektion · September 2014

People forget that the blobs aren't to defeat aoe caps it's to spread buffs. Removal of aoe caps is not only going to make it impossible to actually take anything in the game, which will literally kill pvp, but it will also be an indirect nerf to aoe buffs, since gathering together to buff will be a huge risk to the group. These people just see lag from blobs and QQ their fingers off on these forums. More detrimental than lag would be a lagless server you can't even properly take objectives on.

h1roshim4_ESO · September 2014

There's only one solution.

Friendly fire, vet only, non guest-able server.

Then you guys could continue to argue till you're blue in the face while the hardcore community plays real pvp.

Ezareth · September 2014

I think people are thinking back to a day in PVP where VR ranks were rarer and few people knew how to PvP. Aoeing a bunch of lowbies that comprised 50% of a force would lead to endless ults and unkillable players and no one even knew what negate was. Now the average player is well above VR1 and is sitting on over 2k hitpoints. 6-10 people will still die to 80 lemmings as long as there are a few skilled players in the group to negate, use meat, and various other activities that involve doing more than charging into a bunch of AOE.

My chief concern with the increase of caps is the extra ult generation gain by AOE ult abilities...which IMO was the real issue with no AOE caps. This is how many infamous players like [snip] could spam banner all day long as hordes of players charged him and never die. I think they need to reduce ult gain proportionally when more than 6 people are affected.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Naming & Shaming]

eliisra · September 2014

Insurrektion wrote: »

People forget that the blobs aren't to defeat aoe caps it's to spread buffs. Removal of aoe caps is not only going to make it impossible to actually take anything in the game, which will literally kill pvp, but it will also be an indirect nerf to aoe buffs, since gathering together to buff will be a huge risk to the group. These people just see lag from blobs and QQ their fingers off on these forums. More detrimental than lag would be a lagless server you can't even properly take objectives on.

But you forget that people also blob because they take less damage hiding in a cluster of 24+ players.

We can only hit 3-6 players with an AoE spell. So the more players standing on top of each other, the lesser chance of being hit by cc, debuffs or damage.

If you spread out in smaller groups, you always take dmg or get negative effects from AoE.

You're right about buffs, synergy and healing, requiring stacking of course. That also makes blobbing superior.

I dont want to remove AoE caps completely, I dont think the healing and the shielding in the game would be able to keep up with that much constants dmg. Would settle for more targets, something like 8-12 on normal AoE and maybe 14-16 on costly AoE Ultimates like Negate, Nova etc.

james_vestbergb16_ESO · September 2014

eliisra wrote: »

Insurrektion wrote: »

People forget that the blobs aren't to defeat aoe caps it's to spread buffs. Removal of aoe caps is not only going to make it impossible to actually take anything in the game, which will literally kill pvp, but it will also be an indirect nerf to aoe buffs, since gathering together to buff will be a huge risk to the group. These people just see lag from blobs and QQ their fingers off on these forums. More detrimental than lag would be a lagless server you can't even properly take objectives on.

But you forget that people also blob because they take less damage hiding in a cluster of 24+ players.

We can only hit 3-6 players with an AoE spell. So the more players standing on top of each other, the lesser chance of being hit by cc, debuffs or damage.

If you spread out in smaller groups, you always take dmg or get negative effects from AoE.

You're right about buffs, synergy and healing, requiring stacking of course. That also makes blobbing superior.

I dont want to remove AoE caps completely, I dont think the healing and the shielding in the game would be able to keep up with that much constants dmg. Would settle for more targets, something like 8-12 on normal AoE and maybe 14-16 on costly AoE Ultimates like Negate, Nova etc.

Personally i think the healing and shielding is way too powerful in this game atleast in pvp. I wouldnt mind if they put a permanent debuff, of some percentage, to all healing in Cyrodiil. I think this was done in SWTOR when it became clear ppl could outheal the most intense dmg outputs.

The cap is kinda weird aswell imo, only capping offensive skills and not skills like purge and barrier and other "savior" skills. (I might be wrong on this one) Clearly giving huge benefits to zergtrains.

Another odd thing, imo, is the DK skill Inhale beeing capped at 3 ppl? No other skill gets a unique cap like that right? So i guess its the strongest skill in the game then?

Rylana · September 2014

If you remove caps, every bomb group that already dominates the map will becomes immortal purely by the sheer increase in their damage coverage.

Removing them this late only gives the advantage to the groups that spam AOE already.

Those who truly believe somewhere in their mind that they are entitled to take on 24 with 6 and win just "because reasons" are in for a very very rude awakening if they ever remove those caps and they try to actually broadside a coordinated bomb raid.

Xsorus · September 2014

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

Rylana · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

About the only thing youll accomplish is giving away one of the raids position to the real force, which may be helpful, or may just result in a huge fight that would have started in a few seconds anyway.

Xsorus · September 2014

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

Wait... you think because they're coordinated they're some how not zerg balls anymore?

Are you stacking up on top of your buddies and casting what basically amounts to impulse and frag shield with the occasional heals and barrier? If so, you're zerg balling.

I can safely say every single "Group" i've fought has resulted to that tactic 9/10.

Actually let me go on and put this out there..

I've not seen a 12 man or great in this game not zerg ball yet.

you all pretty much do the exact same tactic...

Ezareth · September 2014

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

It is hubris like this that is the very reason they will wipe you. 6 people can coordinate a hell of a lot easier than 30. I've wiped raids like that with my group in seconds and good players too. Removal of AOE caps would just make it easier. You wouldn't see anything coming because it would be a charge coordinated from stealth and you'd have about 2 seconds of warning as they'd be charging as the meatbag was going up, the negate would hit and the first people would already be dead..refilling ults second negate..third etc.

Rylana · September 2014

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

It is hubris like this that is the very reason they will wipe you. 6 people can coordinate a hell of a lot easier than 30. I've wiped raids like that with my group in seconds and good players too. Removal of AOE caps would just make it easier. You wouldn't see anything coming because it would be a charge coordinated from stealth and you'd have about 2 seconds of warning as they'd be charging as the meatbag was going up, the negate would hit and the first people would already be dead..refilling ults second negate..third etc.

Youre gonna get the jump? That is your whole gameplan? PROTIP - large groups can stack tight and stealth too.

Xsorus · September 2014

Rylana wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

It is hubris like this that is the very reason they will wipe you. 6 people can coordinate a hell of a lot easier than 30. I've wiped raids like that with my group in seconds and good players too. Removal of AOE caps would just make it easier. You wouldn't see anything coming because it would be a charge coordinated from stealth and you'd have about 2 seconds of warning as they'd be charging as the meatbag was going up, the negate would hit and the first people would already be dead..refilling ults second negate..third etc.

Youre gonna get the jump? That is your whole gameplan? PROTIP - large groups can stack tight and stealth too.

Its a lot easier to spot a large group stealthing then it is a small group....

driosketch · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

Meat bags work best on players funneled into constrained spaces, like a hole in a keep wall, and have the advantage of long range.

Player vs player requires you to be in striking distance of your enemy, as well as in range of your allies' support spells. Most players are not capable of being an island unto themselves. There is a fundamental limit to how spread out they can get from each other. You might see looser groups without AoE caps, but there would still be basically blobs of players. They might scatter dodge when something big hits, but would quickly reform to heal, buff, and stack damage.

Armitas · September 2014

This is certainly a very very complex issue. The more we can hash it out the better.

There are two things that MUST be considered in tandem by ZOS for any aoe cap increase or release.
1. Ultimate gains. - already mentioned
2. Frag shield - Right now a single 6 target hit returns 36 hits. I can't even fathom the dps from open caps. Since it also shields damage it may become so powerful as to reassemble the blob by necessity of how powerful it could become.

Xsorus · September 2014

Armitas wrote: »

This is certainly a very very complex issue. The more we can hash it out the better.

There are two things that MUST be considered in tandem by ZOS for any aoe cap increase or release.
1. Ultimate gains. - already mentioned
2. Frag shield - Right now a single 6 target hit returns 36 hits. I can't even fathom the dps from open caps. Since it also shields damage it may become so powerful as to reassemble the blob.

a Blob wouldn't stand a better chance at Frag Shield either...Sure they could use Frag Shield like any other group, but you don't wanna run into a large group and stack and get hit with frag shield yourself.

Armitas · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

This is certainly a very very complex issue. The more we can hash it out the better.

There are two things that MUST be considered in tandem by ZOS for any aoe cap increase or release.
1. Ultimate gains. - already mentioned
2. Frag shield - Right now a single 6 target hit returns 36 hits. I can't even fathom the dps from open caps. Since it also shields damage it may become so powerful as to reassemble the blob.

a Blob wouldn't stand a better chance at Frag Shield either...Sure they could use Frag Shield like any other group, but you don't wanna run into a large group and stack and get hit with frag shield yourself.

The strategic blob can use single target dps and wait for that 1 person that decides to pop an aoe that 1 shots the entire enemy blob. Once the smoke begins to clear the result may be that we have single target blobs running about on all sides. Though strange, I suppose that would be better than what it is now. ...Though it would still be broken if 1 guy with an itchy impulse finger could wipe out his entire group with 1 button.

That guy: - "hey guys I took a months break but I'm back now. Anything change?"
Raid Leader: - "They took away the aoe caps."
That guy: - "Sweeet! (Quietly slots Impulse)
Raid rushes the flag.
That guy: - "Impulse Impulse Impulse"
Raid Leader - "NOOOOOOOOOOOooooo"

That guy: - "........Can I haz a rez? ...anyone?"

Tankqull · September 2014

beeing aoed from range doesent help your singeltarget blob to survive ...

Huntler · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

Wait... you think because they're coordinated they're some how not zerg balls anymore?

Are you stacking up on top of your buddies and casting what basically amounts to impulse and frag shield with the occasional heals and barrier? If so, you're zerg balling.

I can safely say every single "Group" i've fought has resulted to that tactic 9/10.

Actually let me go on and put this out there..

I've not seen a 12 man or great in this game not zerg ball yet.

you all pretty much do the exact same tactic...

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

And to the guy who thinks putting a pvp heal debuff is a good idea.... wow... just wow. No. No. No. Learn2HealDebuff. Probably one of the biggest mistakes every was SWTOR creating that heal debuff, thats basically when the game had a mass exodus. And did you notice they basically buffed the ef out of healing in other ways patches later to compensate? They gave healers new abilities that added survivability/mobility/free heals.... what a coincidence O.o . People complained and didn't know how to coordinate dps/debuffs and thus they complained and so you had SWTOR pitiful excuse for healing.

Armitas · September 2014

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

beeing aoed from range doesent help your singeltarget blob to survive ...

They would also benefit from heal stacking against the weaker ranged aoe. And there is still the issue of a single person, or a single siege being able to wipe out an entire group with 1 hit by simply trying to be "helpful".

Poxheart · September 2014

Huntler wrote: »

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

A 12 man that consists of 1 crown & 11 nut huggers spamming impusle, heals, and dropping ultimates is a zergball. Don't mistake group size with group actions.

Xsorus · September 2014

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

Wait... you think because they're coordinated they're some how not zerg balls anymore?

Are you stacking up on top of your buddies and casting what basically amounts to impulse and frag shield with the occasional heals and barrier? If so, you're zerg balling.

I can safely say every single "Group" i've fought has resulted to that tactic 9/10.

Actually let me go on and put this out there..

I've not seen a 12 man or great in this game not zerg ball yet.

you all pretty much do the exact same tactic...

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

And to the guy who thinks putting a pvp heal debuff is a good idea.... wow... just wow. No. No. No. Learn2HealDebuff. Probably one of the biggest mistakes every was SWTOR creating that heal debuff, thats basically when the game had a mass exodus. And did you notice they basically buffed the ef out of healing in other ways patches later to compensate? They gave healers new abilities that added survivability/mobility/free heals.... what a coincidence O.o . People complained and didn't know how to coordinate dps/debuffs and thus they complained and so you had SWTOR pitiful excuse for healing.

Did they add a healing debuff to SWTOR that i don't know about? i know certain classes had the healing debuff, but I don't recall them just flat out reducing healing in that game.

Also having played a Pyro Powertech in that game, I laughed everytime someone complained healing in that game was over the top.

one of the guilds I ran in that game basically just ran 4 of us on Pyro Powertechs, there was nothing in the game that could heal you, or save you from that burst..and it was all instant and repeatable.

Xsorus · September 2014

Poxheart wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

A 12 man that consists of 1 crown & 11 nut huggers spamming impusle, heals, and dropping ultimates is a zergball. Don't mistake group size with group actions.

this

Huntler · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

Wait... you think because they're coordinated they're some how not zerg balls anymore?

Are you stacking up on top of your buddies and casting what basically amounts to impulse and frag shield with the occasional heals and barrier? If so, you're zerg balling.

I can safely say every single "Group" i've fought has resulted to that tactic 9/10.

Actually let me go on and put this out there..

I've not seen a 12 man or great in this game not zerg ball yet.

you all pretty much do the exact same tactic...

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

And to the guy who thinks putting a pvp heal debuff is a good idea.... wow... just wow. No. No. No. Learn2HealDebuff. Probably one of the biggest mistakes every was SWTOR creating that heal debuff, thats basically when the game had a mass exodus. And did you notice they basically buffed the ef out of healing in other ways patches later to compensate? They gave healers new abilities that added survivability/mobility/free heals.... what a coincidence O.o . People complained and didn't know how to coordinate dps/debuffs and thus they complained and so you had SWTOR pitiful excuse for healing.

Did they add a healing debuff to SWTOR that i don't know about? i know certain classes had the healing debuff, but I don't recall them just flat out reducing healing in that game.

Also having played a Pyro Powertech in that game, I laughed everytime someone complained healing in that game was over the top.

one of the guilds I ran in that game basically just ran 4 of us on Pyro Powertechs, there was nothing in the game that could heal you, or save you from that burst..and it was all instant and repeatable.

Yes so originally some classes had heal debuffs, but they also introduced a "pvp debuff" that basically made all healing about 40% (forget the exact number, but it was pretty big) less powerful. You always had it on you in PvP

Xsorus · September 2014

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

Wait... you think because they're coordinated they're some how not zerg balls anymore?

Are you stacking up on top of your buddies and casting what basically amounts to impulse and frag shield with the occasional heals and barrier? If so, you're zerg balling.

I can safely say every single "Group" i've fought has resulted to that tactic 9/10.

Actually let me go on and put this out there..

I've not seen a 12 man or great in this game not zerg ball yet.

you all pretty much do the exact same tactic...

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

And to the guy who thinks putting a pvp heal debuff is a good idea.... wow... just wow. No. No. No. Learn2HealDebuff. Probably one of the biggest mistakes every was SWTOR creating that heal debuff, thats basically when the game had a mass exodus. And did you notice they basically buffed the ef out of healing in other ways patches later to compensate? They gave healers new abilities that added survivability/mobility/free heals.... what a coincidence O.o . People complained and didn't know how to coordinate dps/debuffs and thus they complained and so you had SWTOR pitiful excuse for healing.

Did they add a healing debuff to SWTOR that i don't know about? i know certain classes had the healing debuff, but I don't recall them just flat out reducing healing in that game.

Also having played a Pyro Powertech in that game, I laughed everytime someone complained healing in that game was over the top.

one of the guilds I ran in that game basically just ran 4 of us on Pyro Powertechs, there was nothing in the game that could heal you, or save you from that burst..and it was all instant and repeatable.

Yes so originally some classes had heal debuffs, but they also introduced a "pvp debuff" that basically made all healing about 40% (forget the exact number, but it was pretty big) less powerful. You always had it on you in PvP

Hmm...i honestly don't remember that... granted its been a long while since i pvped in that game

Huntler · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

Wait... you think because they're coordinated they're some how not zerg balls anymore?

Are you stacking up on top of your buddies and casting what basically amounts to impulse and frag shield with the occasional heals and barrier? If so, you're zerg balling.

I can safely say every single "Group" i've fought has resulted to that tactic 9/10.

Actually let me go on and put this out there..

I've not seen a 12 man or great in this game not zerg ball yet.

you all pretty much do the exact same tactic...

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

And to the guy who thinks putting a pvp heal debuff is a good idea.... wow... just wow. No. No. No. Learn2HealDebuff. Probably one of the biggest mistakes every was SWTOR creating that heal debuff, thats basically when the game had a mass exodus. And did you notice they basically buffed the ef out of healing in other ways patches later to compensate? They gave healers new abilities that added survivability/mobility/free heals.... what a coincidence O.o . People complained and didn't know how to coordinate dps/debuffs and thus they complained and so you had SWTOR pitiful excuse for healing.

Did they add a healing debuff to SWTOR that i don't know about? i know certain classes had the healing debuff, but I don't recall them just flat out reducing healing in that game.

Also having played a Pyro Powertech in that game, I laughed everytime someone complained healing in that game was over the top.

one of the guilds I ran in that game basically just ran 4 of us on Pyro Powertechs, there was nothing in the game that could heal you, or save you from that burst..and it was all instant and repeatable.

Yes so originally some classes had heal debuffs, but they also introduced a "pvp debuff" that basically made all healing about 40% (forget the exact number, but it was pretty big) less powerful. You always had it on you in PvP

Hmm...i honestly don't remember that... granted its been a long while since i pvped in that game

I was a healer so I was very very well aware of it :P they called it trauma basically it was always on you in a warzone or if you got in combat in open world with an enemy player http://www.torhead.com/ability/ascyK3i/trauma-pvp

Xsorus · September 2014

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't think people understand how powerful it is to basically have damage completely ignore targets past 6 people.

You think you'll still be able to stack up, You won't... Healing in this game will not keep up with the damage in this game if you stack and there is no cap... Hell you get hit with 1 Meatbag right now, and its almost enough to completely decimate a group if another group runs in and starts PBAEing as well.

So saying "well it'll just make these zerg balls much stronger" no....it won't... It'll make well played Groups stronger, But you'll see Zerg Balls spreading out far more.

The vast majority of those "zerg balls" as people call them, arent even zerg balls anymore, they are commed and coordinated dual raid teams. Its not like on wabba where it was 12 jocks and 40 sniffers, its people actually following instructions and moving as a unit. Team A and team B, etc.

If you think 6 raid busters with a meatbag are going to have any more success vs a "zergball" like that then you are painfully mistaken. What will really happen is youll get close, the leader will call to bomb the flank and youll be vaporized before you even hit impulse/whatever twice.

Wait... you think because they're coordinated they're some how not zerg balls anymore?

Are you stacking up on top of your buddies and casting what basically amounts to impulse and frag shield with the occasional heals and barrier? If so, you're zerg balling.

I can safely say every single "Group" i've fought has resulted to that tactic 9/10.

Actually let me go on and put this out there..

I've not seen a 12 man or great in this game not zerg ball yet.

you all pretty much do the exact same tactic...

A 12 man is a zerg ball now? Wut O.o

And to the guy who thinks putting a pvp heal debuff is a good idea.... wow... just wow. No. No. No. Learn2HealDebuff. Probably one of the biggest mistakes every was SWTOR creating that heal debuff, thats basically when the game had a mass exodus. And did you notice they basically buffed the ef out of healing in other ways patches later to compensate? They gave healers new abilities that added survivability/mobility/free heals.... what a coincidence O.o . People complained and didn't know how to coordinate dps/debuffs and thus they complained and so you had SWTOR pitiful excuse for healing.

Did they add a healing debuff to SWTOR that i don't know about? i know certain classes had the healing debuff, but I don't recall them just flat out reducing healing in that game.

Also having played a Pyro Powertech in that game, I laughed everytime someone complained healing in that game was over the top.

one of the guilds I ran in that game basically just ran 4 of us on Pyro Powertechs, there was nothing in the game that could heal you, or save you from that burst..and it was all instant and repeatable.

Yes so originally some classes had heal debuffs, but they also introduced a "pvp debuff" that basically made all healing about 40% (forget the exact number, but it was pretty big) less powerful. You always had it on you in PvP

Hmm...i honestly don't remember that... granted its been a long while since i pvped in that game

I was a healer so I was very very well aware of it :P they called it trauma basically it was always on you in a warzone or if you got in combat in open world with an enemy player http://www.torhead.com/ability/ascyK3i/trauma-pvp

ahh trauma, now I remember it..

Columba · September 2014

I'm so frustrated with the impulse spam right now that I would be willing to try aoe cap removal. Yes it may create more problems and it's not how I'd solve is problem, but the current system is intolerable.

Personally, I'd nerf impulse and beef up single target range skills.

Maulkin · September 2014

Nah, too much doom and gloom.

The only thing they have to be careful about is ultimate generation and that's been already mentioned so many times they'd have to be blind on top of being stupid to miss it.

Most people that have played in zergs must have at some point also played as part of a small group too. They've seen the damage small groups get from bigger ones and know what to expect. It's harder but it's not obscene.

Also, going through breaches is a breeze as it is. We (5-6 man group) have not lost a single man storming a breach in the last month (we have died many times trying to hold it, but that's another thing). That's not a brag, that's a statement of truth about how simple it is with all the counter-CC and shields in the game.

Put up some shields or Barrier, stack annulment, throw rapid manoeuvres to cancel out caltrops and cinder storm, keep your immovable up and just heal and purge all the way though to the first floor of the nearest tower. Once on the first floor of the tower, put your own oils, caltrops and cinder storms down ...aaand watch your tail try to come up the steps. Aaahh, it brings a tear of happiness to my eye!