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Crit is pointless because of impenetrable?
People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?
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Pathfinder✭✭✭It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.Main
Malfahri del Sol Imperial Templar (stamplar *new respec) PC/NA/Trueflame5 -
madangrypally✭✭✭✭thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »People that run impenetrable are not punished in anyway for using it since the other traits do not buff you enough?
Put a reasonable soft/hard cap on critical, then and only then would I want impenetrable to be changed.0 -
Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it0 -
Tintinabula✭✭✭✭✭
✭you still crit..crit still counts towards Ultimates..the crits are simply smaller.7 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tintinabula wrote: »you still crit..crit still counts towards Ultimates..the crits are simply smaller.
If only.
Impenetrable directly counters crit chance. Not crit damage.6 -
Pathfinder✭✭✭thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it
Well, yes there are. They are punished by not having a different trait on their armor like infused or mundus.
Main
Malfahri del Sol Imperial Templar (stamplar *new respec) PC/NA/Trueflame0 -
Rallick71✭✭Tintinabula wrote: »you still crit..crit still counts towards Ultimates..the crits are simply smaller.
Way to prove how little you do know
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Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pathfinder wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it
Well, yes there are. They are punished by not having a different trait on their armor like infused or mundus.
I think if anything it might be the other way around. You are punished if your armor has infused or mundus instead of impenetrable. (though I don't think in either case that I would consider the lack of having two simultaneous choices a punishment.)
Edited by Armitas on September 3, 2014 9:02PMRetired.
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Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pathfinder wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it
Well, yes there are. They are punished by not having a different trait on their armor like infused or mundus.
infused on minor pieces gives like 20 additional magicka/stamina over all 4 pieces. 20 additional magicka/stamina versus 40% crit reduction (in legendary gear) is not even in the same universe of relative power for pvp. the same can be said for divines. impenetrable on your gear for pvp has an extremely low opportunity cost.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pathfinder wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it
Well, yes there are. They are punished by not having a different trait on their armor like infused or mundus.
infused on minor pieces gives like 20 additional magicka/stamina over all 4 pieces. 20 additional magicka/stamina versus 40% crit reduction (in legendary gear) is not even in the same universe of relative power for pvp. the same can be said for divines. impenetrable on your gear for pvp has an extremely low opportunity cost.
I wouldn't say it has an extremely low opportunity cost as having too high of impen costs you the chance to use noncrafted sets and their set bonuses.
In my experience having a moderate amount of impen (300-400) will negate the vast majority of crits against you with each piece of impen above that having rapidly diminishing returns.
Impenetrable as it currently stands directly subtracts 1% crit from your opponent for every 10 impen you have. If you have 300 impenetrable and your opponent has 30% crit, he can't crit you without boosting his crit chance further in some way.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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Tintinabula✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tintinabula wrote: »you still crit..crit still counts towards Ultimates..the crits are simply smaller.
Way to prove how little you do know
I didn't say you crit the same amount. Crits DO STILL count towards the Ulitmate. I was adressing the Ops statement that crit was pointless which it is not.
Sharee corrected me in my belief that crit damage went down..which it doesn't. I gave them an insightful for that.. YOU however would receive a "troll" from me if this were alpha.1 -
Pathfinder wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it
Well, yes there are. They are punished by not having a different trait on their armor like infused or mundus.
An extra 100 magicka stamina or health, SO GOOD!!! OMG give that over immunity to crits please!!!!2 -
kijima✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you hover above 70%+ crit, then all is good in the world.Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...3 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you hover above 70%+ crit, then all is good in the world.
You sacrifice a lot to get it that high tho, and you still get no crits against someone in all-impenetrable unless other mechanics increase your crit beyond those 70(or 80 if he has a shield), like potions, or sorcerer exploitation passive.1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The entire concept of stacking crit makes zero sense to me with the exception where you aren't given an option or are already softcapped on something else. If someone is running over 70% in their normal build they're going to be doing far less damage than someone who is running spell /weapon damage when presented with the option for +damage instead.
Point for point crit is already MORE expensive than +damage with respect to overall damage. Sure it builds ult faster and some synergies work better with crit, but the concept of impenetrable directly reduces the effectiveness of crit and thus makes it a secondary or tertiary stat choice for most players.
The only thing crit has going for it right now is farming garbage players and low levels for bonus ultimate and AP.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
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Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »
The only thing crit has going for it right now is farming garbage players and low levels for bonus ultimate and AP.
Or the primary tool for melee sorcs to self heal. Entire builds washed away because ZoS cannot manage their crazy crit and impen scaling.4 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We'll see how the champion system mixes up the cards.
From what i understand, it will allow you to increase any stat using champion points(not just H/M/S), and possibly without any softcaps.
If, say, a medium armor dual-dagger assassination NB will be able to pump his crit so high that he will be able to reliably overcome a 8/8 legendary impenetrable set, then choosing to use impenetrable trait will become a gamble in PvP instead of the current sure bet. This will make traits like infused more viable (infused always works, impenetrable might sometimes be useless, depending on who is hitting you)1 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭Spell crit lets you gain ultimate with heals even out of combat. Weapon crit is the one that's useless in PvP.1 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »If someone is running over 70% in their normal build they're going to be doing far less damage than someone who is running spell /weapon damage when presented with the option for +damage instead.
You would be surprised. Just last night I was at 74% crit with my dual wield daggers and somewhere around 232 weapon damage in stealth (220ish not in stealth). Best of both worlds my friend. Granted some of this was due to PvP bonus', but you can have both, which is my point.4 -
AnteCoyote✭✭✭I still run a bit of crit in PvP. I soft capped weapon damage, then went back to crit. with 60% crit, I still crit almost always from stealth and quite a bit otherwise. I use the shadow stone rather then the thief for crit damage because of that. I wouldn't say it's useless. If impen is really being used by so many people, I haven't had much of an issue with it. The only people I can't burst down from stealth are generally blocking or covered in all sorts of barriers. My crit isn't that high, so my only thoughts is that this impen stacking thing is all hype. I've only gotten better since word about this has been spreading.Aldmeri Dominion -J'Ualizz - Siphons-Spirits - S'Renrij - Byz Only Sweeps - Winds-Roots
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pathfinder wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it
Well, yes there are. They are punished by not having a different trait on their armor like infused or mundus.
impen outdoes those massivly.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
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dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you hover above 70%+ crit, then all is good in the world.
You sacrifice a lot to get it that high tho, and you still get no crits against someone in all-impenetrable unless other mechanics increase your crit beyond those 70(or 80 if he has a shield), like potions, or sorcerer exploitation passive.
the only thing i sacrifice to get a weapon crit that high is crit traits on my daggers instead of penetration. worth it.
i'm over the weapon damage cap as well being a sorc with critical surge so my crits = survivability.
PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you hover above 70%+ crit, then all is good in the world.
You sacrifice a lot to get it that high tho, and you still get no crits against someone in all-impenetrable unless other mechanics increase your crit beyond those 70(or 80 if he has a shield), like potions, or sorcerer exploitation passive.
the only thing i sacrifice to get a weapon crit that high is crit traits on my daggers instead of penetration. worth it.
i'm over the weapon damage cap as well being a sorc with critical surge so my crits = survivability.
Well let's see. You are using medium armor, which is subpar compared to light in the current meta. Thief stone instead of, say, atronach, so you lose magicka regen. You use daggers instead of swords, so you lose 5% damage. You are getting crit from your armor sets, instead of other bonuses. Your racial bonus is crit%, so you don't have one of the other ones. Etc. That all counts as sacrifice in my book.
Just speculation of course, but from my knowledge, you need all that to even approach the % needed to overcome impenetrable.Edited by Sharee on September 4, 2014 9:11PM0 -
ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭kevlarto_ESO wrote: »I still see people getting one shotted, so not everyone is using it../shrug
Stealth bonus is not the same as crit.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pathfinder wrote: »thomaswinkworthb16_ESO wrote: »Pathfinder wrote: »It's cyclic. As soon as everyone stops using crit (except NB), impen will go away and crit will come back. Then impen comes back, etc. Rinse and repeat.
It's not for the reason I said.
"People that run impenetrable are not punished" for using it
Well, yes there are. They are punished by not having a different trait on their armor like infused or mundus.
Not being able to use something worse than you are already wearing is not a punishment...
This is like saying that driving around in a ferrari means that you can't drive around on a vespa instead.
Darn.Edited by Varicite on September 4, 2014 10:45PM0 -
ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Just another well thought out mechanic by ZOS. The moment I understood how impen worked I thought it was idiotic. But, then, the ridiculously high crit chance is also idiotic (including the ridiculous PvP dominating crit bonus). Do two idiots make a normal?0
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »If someone is running over 70% in their normal build they're going to be doing far less damage than someone who is running spell /weapon damage when presented with the option for +damage instead.
You would be surprised. Just last night I was at 74% crit with my dual wield daggers and somewhere around 232 weapon damage in stealth (220ish not in stealth). Best of both worlds my friend. Granted some of this was due to PvP bonus', but you can have both, which is my point.
Yeah medium armor NBs can't help but have high crit. I typically have 50% myself but none of it is at the cost of other more powerful stats.If you hover above 70%+ crit, then all is good in the world.
You sacrifice a lot to get it that high tho, and you still get no crits against someone in all-impenetrable unless other mechanics increase your crit beyond those 70(or 80 if he has a shield), like potions, or sorcerer exploitation passive.
the only thing i sacrifice to get a weapon crit that high is crit traits on my daggers instead of penetration. worth it.
i'm over the weapon damage cap as well being a sorc with critical surge so my crits = survivability.
Well let's see. You are using medium armor, which is subpar compared to light in the current meta. Thief stone instead of, say, atronach, so you lose magicka regen. You use daggers instead of swords, so you lose 5% damage. You are getting crit from your armor sets, instead of other bonuses. Your racial bonus is crit%, so you don't have one of the other ones. Etc. That all counts as sacrifice in my book.
Just speculation of course, but from my knowledge, you need all that to even approach the % needed to overcome impenetrable.
The real problem isn't that you can't overcome impen. It is that you don't start building crit until AFTER you pass the impen threshold of your opponent.so yes you can crit people with 74% crit.... But you're only going to be critting good players 20-30% of the time or less...which isn't really that good considering g crits are only +50%. On the flip side the opportunity cost of 700-800 impenetrable is roughly 150 HP's or 100 magicka provided you're using 100% crafted sets.
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