New Heavy Armor effect - Damage Mitigation/Rugged

thorspark · September 2014

There's a lot of thinking about armors at the moment, about how imbalanced they are and how to fix them. Some propositions look straight forward, other seem difficult to implement IG.

Here's an idea for a solution which, I think, wouldn't be hard to get and would change things. It's about damage mitigation. ZOS changed class passives in the past and offered the Nords a 6% flat damage mitigation, which is not affected by softcaps.
Why not take

Heavy armor - Resolve : Add a new effect : Reduce incoming damage by 1/2/3 % by piece of heavy armor equipped.

This would work for all incoming damage, magickal or not. The percentages are just a proposition and should be adapted to what ZOS finds good. That would really make heavy armor worth it, with a flat damage mitigation, not affected by caps.

Here's how it works :
I'm a Nord wearing full heavy armor, nearly hardcapped (48% mitigation) on Armor and near softcap (28% mitigation)on spell resist.

I receive 1000 incoming physical damage :

First, the Nord passive comes in, decreasing damage from the flat 6% making the incoming damage 940. Then, the armor mitigation applies and I receive 489 dmg

With the new passive : 1000 - (1000 x (6+21)/100) = 730 after flat mitigation = 380 dmg after armor mitigation

I receive 1000 incoming magickal damage :

First, the Nord passive comes in, decreasing damage from the flat 6% making the incoming damage 940. Then, the armor mitigation applies and I receive 677 dmg

With the new passive : 1000 - (1000 x (6+21)/100) = 730 after flat mitigation = 526 dmg after spell resistance mitigation.

That would make a big difference, both in PvP and PvE without making everyone go to heavy armor. You want to resist ? Wear an heavy armor. You wanna do damage ? Try another one.

AshySamurai · September 2014

Pretty nice for HA, but you make it OP. With new passive you get only 50% of incoming magikal damage (and 30% of incoming physical damage). HA need buff, but IMO this is too much. + if you will blck all time it's become imposible to kill DK with dragonblood.

aco5712 · September 2014

maybe if it was like 0.5/1/1.5%, but even then :P

thorspark · September 2014

Yeah, ZOS needs to fix the numbers so that it makes HA attractive but not OverPowered.

But IMO it's quite simple to set this (as they already did it on Nords)

AlexDougherty · September 2014

Or they could just adjust the Armour caps.
Make it so Medium and Heavy Armour have different Armour caps, thus giving greater protection than Light Armour.

This would make more sense, since a suit or Armour will offer greater protection than a suit of clothes.

Attorneyatlawl · September 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Or they could just adjust the Armour caps.
Make it so Medium and Heavy Armour have different Armour caps, thus giving greater protection than Light Armour.

This would make more sense, since a suit or Armour will offer greater protection than a suit of clothes.

They already do. You cannot come close to the amount of armor you get from heavy with light, even with armor rings on both setups for example (Hint, softcap is not the cap!). Heavy also gives the option of using something else other than armor rings if all you're going for is softcap.

thorspark · September 2014

@Attorneyatlawl‌ : I think he was referring to skills that give armor, such as inamovible or Spiked Armor for Dks that bring you way over softcap, even if you wear light armor

Attorneyatlawl · September 2014

thorspark wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl‌ : I think he was referring to skills that give armor, such as inamovible or Spiked Armor for Dks that bring you way over softcap, even if you wear light armor

Again softcap isn't an issue though at all, it's just where you start gaining 40% of the points added past there. You still gain large amounts of mitigation/effectiveness from going beyond. That is what I was pointing out because it seems to be lost on most people so far

. 2000 armor is 40 above softcap and gives, give or take a little bit, 35% mitigation value... pop that up to the hardcap by reaching (very difficult to do) around 2950 effective armor rating and you've got 50% mitigation, which is almost an extra half of the effectiveness of merely going to the softcap/overcharge amount. I'm not sure where the confusion of "overcharge/softcap is the cap" keeps springing up but it's a common misunderstanding.

ChillingSpree · September 2014

Completely agree. It doesn't matter so much the actual numerical value of the passive skill you proposed. That can be left to the developers to figure out mathematically. I'm sure they can find a way of doing it without overdoing it. But heavy armor needs anything it can get right now... It's not worthwhile for ANY mode of play... it offers no boost to survivability that light armor wearers can't get without a buff, and it gets none of the benefits to resource management, spell resistance, and damage that light armor wearers get. The fact that light armor gets a spell resistance passive, and heavy armor gets an extremely gimped general resistance passive, is ridiculous. We need to have a passive skill that lowers damage in general, in such a way that can't be penetrated. We either need a decent resistance to spell crits, or a decent resistance to spells entirely. We already have decent resistance to weapon/stamina attacks, which nobody uses in pvp... so maybe it's time to give heavy armor a resistance to something that's actually commonly used. Heavy armor is supposed to be the defense armor type. Yet it offers less defensive potential than light armor, so long as you slot immovable. Immovable really needs to be restricted to those wearing a majority of heavy armor. Heavy armor should have a higher soft cap for armor, and should get bonuses to spell resistance. We need to have a strong defense against spells to even consider wearing it in PvP. Increasing the bonuses we get to weapon resistance, healing received, and block cost reduction, is not going to convince anyone to switch back to heavy. It doesn't matter how high those bonuses go, we will still get completely wrecked by the 90% of pvp players who use magicka skills. So we need to have defensive passives that make us last longer, to make up for the lower dps that we already have...

tordr86b16_ESO · September 2014

This would be totally overpowered as a DK, and DK is OP enough as it is atm.

Attorneyatlawl · September 2014

ChillingSpree wrote: »

But heavy armor needs anything it can get right now... It's not worthwhile for ANY mode of play... it offers no boost to survivability that light armor wearers can't get without a buff,

The fact that light armor gets a spell resistance passive, and heavy armor gets an extremely gimped general resistance passive, is ridiculous. .

We either need a decent resistance to spell crits, or a decent resistance to spells entirely.

We already have decent resistance to weapon/stamina attacks, which nobody uses in pvp... so maybe it's time to give heavy armor a resistance to something that's actually commonly used.

Heavy armor is supposed to be the defense armor type. Yet it offers less defensive potential than light armor, so long as you slot immovable. Immovable really needs to be restricted to those wearing a majority of heavy armor.

Heavy armor should have a higher soft cap for armor, .

I think every single point you listed is wrong in this post, but I'm going to just quote the most obvious and egregious ones to point out:

-Heavy actually does provide significant extra resistance due to the armor rating to most of the Nightblade abilities of note (such as surprise attack/concealed weap, ambush, etc. etc.), bow attacks, and many other class skills that check armor as their mitigation type.

-Heavy gets 3% armor and 3% spell resist, while light gets 6% spell resist, per piece. Seems perfectly balanced actually.

-You get spell resist with heavy armor. And since you don't need an armor ring to achieve similar physical protection levels as light needs rings for, you can slot a spell resist ring for even higher overall protection.

-Lots of people use physical/armor-checking attacks, see above. Nightblades use mostly entirely armor-checking abilities, as do bow users, dual-wielders, and other skills. Add in the spell resist given and you are gaining a large amount of protection. Stating that no one uses these skills shows a complete non-participation on your part in Cyrodiil except on the forums if you are trying to say that without being sarcastic.

-Heavy does offer higher protection. Immovable cannot bring you even close to the hardcaps, just the softcaps, with other armor types.

-Heavy armor is required to reach the hardcap basically without casting multiple short-duration & temporary buffs which have their own high costs. So it already actually does do this.

The rest of your points are similarly incorrect but there's really no need to do a rundown of your giant block without spacing or linebreaks

.

Stratti · September 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

thorspark wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl‌ : I think he was referring to skills that give armor, such as inamovible or Spiked Armor for Dks that bring you way over softcap, even if you wear light armor

Again softcap isn't an issue though at all, it's just where you start gaining 40% of the points added past there. You still gain large amounts of mitigation/effectiveness from going beyond. That is what I was pointing out because it seems to be lost on most people so far . 2000 armor is 40 above softcap and gives, give or take a little bit, 35% mitigation value... pop that up to the hardcap by reaching (very difficult to do) around 2950 effective armor rating and you've got 50% mitigation, which is almost an extra half of the effectiveness of merely going to the softcap/overcharge amount. I'm not sure where the confusion of "overcharge/softcap is the cap" keeps springing up but it's a common misunderstanding.

It is common I do not understand why. The softcap is irrelevant if your concern is the softcap your doing it wrong. Wearing 5 h and 2 L ( spell resist) I'll push past 3k with abilities that are spam able . Razor armor , Ransack Will get you there

thorspark · September 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

This would be totally overpowered as a DK, and DK is OP enough as it is atm.

DKs at the moment don't use Heavy Armor. They use Light (mostly) and medium (some) because of dmg/crit/cost reduction they provide for either spell or weapons.

Going to Heavy armor has a drawback as you don't get these useful buffs. So yes, in PvP, they would survive even much longer, but at a high cost (21% cost reduction on spells and other passives for light, 21% crit rate lost on medium, 14% stamina cost reduction and so on).

I'm not sure my DK would go HA even with this new passive.
My templar would definitely have the use for some pieces.

AlexDougherty · September 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Or they could just adjust the Armour caps.
Make it so Medium and Heavy Armour have different Armour caps, thus giving greater protection than Light Armour.

This would make more sense, since a suit or Armour will offer greater protection than a suit of clothes.

They already do. You cannot come close to the amount of armor you get from heavy with light, even with armor rings on both setups for example (Hint, softcap is not the cap!). Heavy also gives the option of using something else other than armor rings if all you're going for is softcap.

Yeah, I do understand how softcap works.

And I get that you get better armour rating with HA than LA, but not enough. Given that the only way to do PVP is in LA with a staff (or a bow), it needs ramping, until HA is as viable as LA.

Oh, and MA is just as viable too.
LA = Light Armour
HA = Heavy Armour
MA = Medium Armour
(Just in case someone complains about the Accronyms)
(Oh and yes Armour is spelt correctly, I'm British)

Lionxoft · September 2014

50=(3150-100)/61

ChillingSpree · September 2014

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ChillingSpree wrote: »

But heavy armor needs anything it can get right now... It's not worthwhile for ANY mode of play... it offers no boost to survivability that light armor wearers can't get without a buff,

The fact that light armor gets a spell resistance passive, and heavy armor gets an extremely gimped general resistance passive, is ridiculous. .

We either need a decent resistance to spell crits, or a decent resistance to spells entirely.

We already have decent resistance to weapon/stamina attacks, which nobody uses in pvp... so maybe it's time to give heavy armor a resistance to something that's actually commonly used.

Heavy armor is supposed to be the defense armor type. Yet it offers less defensive potential than light armor, so long as you slot immovable. Immovable really needs to be restricted to those wearing a majority of heavy armor.

Heavy armor should have a higher soft cap for armor, .

I think every single point you listed is wrong in this post, but I'm going to just quote the most obvious and egregious ones to point out:

-Heavy actually does provide significant extra resistance due to the armor rating to most of the Nightblade abilities of note (such as surprise attack/concealed weap, ambush, etc. etc.), bow attacks, and many other class skills that check armor as their mitigation type.

-Heavy gets 3% armor and 3% spell resist, while light gets 6% spell resist, per piece. Seems perfectly balanced actually.

-You get spell resist with heavy armor. And since you don't need an armor ring to achieve similar physical protection levels as light needs rings for, you can slot a spell resist ring for even higher overall protection.

-Lots of people use physical/armor-checking attacks, see above. Nightblades use mostly entirely armor-checking abilities, as do bow users, dual-wielders, and other skills. Add in the spell resist given and you are gaining a large amount of protection. Stating that no one uses these skills shows a complete non-participation on your part in Cyrodiil except on the forums if you are trying to say that without being sarcastic.

-Heavy does offer higher protection. Immovable cannot bring you even close to the hardcaps, just the softcaps, with other armor types.

-Heavy armor is required to reach the hardcap basically without casting multiple short-duration & temporary buffs which have their own high costs. So it already actually does do this.

The rest of your points are similarly incorrect but there's really no need to do a rundown of your giant block without spacing or linebreaks .

Uhh, let's see, first of all you missed the fact that light gets annulment, which is a flat 50% spell damage reduction... Second, you really can't argue that stamina attacks are slotted more commonly than magicka attacks. The fact that you're arguing that point makes it look like you're more interested in putting me down and simply arguing than you are in the facts. Ask every decent PvPer you know how many stam ATTACKS they slot... Finally the fact that you think heavy offers higher protection because it goes further beyond the soft cap is laughable. Do you even know what the soft cap does? Any points further than overcharge is a complete waste of investment. Why on earth would a heavy armor wearer want his only advantage to be that he gets closer to the hard cap? A light armor + immovable vs. a heavy armor + immovable is almost insignificant in pvp, especially when you're dealing with a metagame where magicka attacks are, again, by far the most common. Finally, nobody is even trying to reach the hardcap. You're really just acting like a pretentious *** at this point. You say all my points are wrong, yet you argue with the ones that you can only provide weak, and often incorrect, arguments against. If everything I said is so wrong, then why don't you give a decent explanation as to why it's wrong?

I'll just go ahead and say it for you: you only play dress+stick builds, so you don't want to see any changes to the current meta. Just stick your head in the sand, because it's coming...

Attorneyatlawl · September 2014

ChillingSpree wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ChillingSpree wrote: »

But heavy armor needs anything it can get right now... It's not worthwhile for ANY mode of play... it offers no boost to survivability that light armor wearers can't get without a buff,

The fact that light armor gets a spell resistance passive, and heavy armor gets an extremely gimped general resistance passive, is ridiculous. .

We either need a decent resistance to spell crits, or a decent resistance to spells entirely.

We already have decent resistance to weapon/stamina attacks, which nobody uses in pvp... so maybe it's time to give heavy armor a resistance to something that's actually commonly used.

Heavy armor is supposed to be the defense armor type. Yet it offers less defensive potential than light armor, so long as you slot immovable. Immovable really needs to be restricted to those wearing a majority of heavy armor.

Heavy armor should have a higher soft cap for armor, .

I think every single point you listed is wrong in this post, but I'm going to just quote the most obvious and egregious ones to point out:

-Heavy actually does provide significant extra resistance due to the armor rating to most of the Nightblade abilities of note (such as surprise attack/concealed weap, ambush, etc. etc.), bow attacks, and many other class skills that check armor as their mitigation type.

-Heavy gets 3% armor and 3% spell resist, while light gets 6% spell resist, per piece. Seems perfectly balanced actually.

-You get spell resist with heavy armor. And since you don't need an armor ring to achieve similar physical protection levels as light needs rings for, you can slot a spell resist ring for even higher overall protection.

-Lots of people use physical/armor-checking attacks, see above. Nightblades use mostly entirely armor-checking abilities, as do bow users, dual-wielders, and other skills. Add in the spell resist given and you are gaining a large amount of protection. Stating that no one uses these skills shows a complete non-participation on your part in Cyrodiil except on the forums if you are trying to say that without being sarcastic.

-Heavy does offer higher protection. Immovable cannot bring you even close to the hardcaps, just the softcaps, with other armor types.

-Heavy armor is required to reach the hardcap basically without casting multiple short-duration & temporary buffs which have their own high costs. So it already actually does do this.

The rest of your points are similarly incorrect but there's really no need to do a rundown of your giant block without spacing or linebreaks .

Uhh, let's see, first of all you missed the fact that light gets annulment, which is a flat 50% spell damage reduction... Second, you really can't argue that stamina attacks are slotted more commonly than magicka attacks. The fact that you're arguing that point makes it look like you're more interested in putting me down and simply arguing than you are in the facts. Ask every decent PvPer you know how many stam ATTACKS they slot... Finally the fact that you think heavy offers higher protection because it goes further beyond the soft cap is laughable. Do you even know what the soft cap does? Any points further than overcharge is a complete waste of investment. Why on earth would a heavy armor wearer want his only advantage to be that he gets closer to the hard cap? A light armor + immovable vs. a heavy armor + immovable is almost insignificant in pvp, especially when you're dealing with a metagame where magicka attacks are, again, by far the most common. Finally, nobody is even trying to reach the hardcap. You're really just acting like a pretentious *** at this point. You say all my points are wrong, yet you argue with the ones that you can only provide weak, and often incorrect, arguments against. If everything I said is so wrong, then why don't you give a decent explanation as to why it's wrong?

I'll just go ahead and say it for you: you only play dress+stick builds, so you don't want to see any changes to the current meta. Just stick your head in the sand, because it's coming...

How you managed to completely ignore everything being said and throw out even worse fud about things such as softcap and especially not comprehending that I said nothing about Nightblade and stamina attacks is beyond me. Nightblade abilities check armor. Softcap is not Hardcap, learn the terms and basics before trying to respond when I even explained it in my reply to you originally. Oh and pro tip, you don't have to wear an armor set to use its active line ability.