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Bolt Escape still too cheap?
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Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
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Umm yeah since it's a magicka driven spell. Why should a full-on stamina based build be able to cast it as many times as a pure magicka driven build? LOL that's just delusional.
Yes it should cost more for stamina builds than for magicka builds. It's a magicka ability. Just like a DK who is largely stamina based can't cast green dragon blood nearly as many times as a magicka based DK, or a Stamina based Nightblade using shadow cloak, or a stamina based Templar using blazing shield. The way the game is currently, any stamina based build is going to suffer at the expense of their own class abilities.
It already does cost more for stamina or health builds because you magika pool is smaller and spells are more expensive. They can't spam it infinitely. It's clear you understand this concept in the examples you give, so clearly you understand that I wasn't saying stamina builds should be able to infinite spam, but rather that if the cost increases any further, stamina builds will not be able to use bolt escape and anything else, meaning it will be useless for stamina builds (so I can use my mana pool to attack or to teleport once and then die, why bother using?) which arguably need it more.Edited by Cathexis on August 18, 2014 4:10PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭MADshadowman wrote: »CapuchinSeven wrote: »MADshadowman wrote: »there's also a reason the other group stays stealthed and avoids the people that are roaming the area.
... not sure if you're replying to me or not, are you kidding me? Detection potions have a huge amount of range when a group uses them properly, AND someone using Bolt Escape can use stealth as well, so your point is silly.
i was replying to you. and no, i'm not kidding you. You know what has more range than potions? My eyes. I can see a group coming and stay out of their detection radius.
.............HOW are you not getting this?!
You can stealth, they can stealth, you can use potions, they can use potions. Your entire point is invalid only one class can use bolt escape.0 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭CapuchinSeven wrote: »MADshadowman wrote: »CapuchinSeven wrote: »MADshadowman wrote: »there's also a reason the other group stays stealthed and avoids the people that are roaming the area.
... not sure if you're replying to me or not, are you kidding me? Detection potions have a huge amount of range when a group uses them properly, AND someone using Bolt Escape can use stealth as well, so your point is silly.
i was replying to you. and no, i'm not kidding you. You know what has more range than potions? My eyes. I can see a group coming and stay out of their detection radius.
.............HOW are you not getting this?!
You can stealth, they can stealth, you can use potions, they can use potions. Your entire point is invalid only one class can use bolt escape.
I think you have no idea what you're talking about. What was your point?0 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭You know what, I play a Sorcerer, and fully supported the original nerf. That does not make my opinion more valid and I am sure some will equate the following text to me just looking out for my class, but whatever. I can not stop people from thinking what they are going to think.
So far, I disagree with the OP. I can get about 5-6 bolt escapes out, 7 or 8 if I am lucky with the magnus set bonus. I believe, this sorc of your's was either lucky, or the group chasing him where not really trying very hard. There is no way I could get away from that many people after engaging if they wanted to catch me. Gap closers like Charge, and Ambush, are very effective at catching sorcs.
To get so many cast of the ability in, you have to sacrifice passive defence for the regen. The people zipping around on that many cast, are the same people getting dropped in half a sec by NB. And to those that think using Harness Magicka + Streak and Dark Conversion makes you unstoppable, you are either intentionally giving false information or you are crazy. I have run with that set up many times, and still got caught by my pursuers.
My NB has zero, problems with Bolting sorcs and can now burst down most cloth users. And the incredible survivablility of the DK and Temps are insane sometimes. Insane like surviving 5-7 people attacking them Insane. Every class as a trump card right now it seems, and I kind of like it that way.
I really do not believe it is in need of a farther cost increase. I have honestly not seen this as a problem, and have only just now heard of anyone still thinking it needs a nerf. No one I know in-game, still thinks that Bolt Escape and its morphs are in need of anymore deduffs.
Edited by Tessitura on August 20, 2014 8:25AM1 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
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then don't chase him! its called bolt ESCAPE. its meant to ESCAPE, and that is what it will be used for. just like a DKs dragon blood, Templars blazing shield, and the NBs broken cloak, helps them survive, bolt escape helps a sorcerer survive. if a Sorcerer BEs out of a battle, they won't be back for a good amount of time. If you force them to escape with this ability, then you have taken them out of the battle, and have done your job. You wont always get what you want out of PvP. No need to nerf an already heavily nerfed skill.NorthernFury wrote: »Effective use of a class specific skill does not mean class needs a nerf.
It was nerfed because it was too effective before. It's still too effective when an entire group can not chase down and kill the guy because by the time the fastest pursuer gets to the sorc with some form of CC .. the sorc gets his immunity up and is out of the CC by the time the rest of party shows up to try to burn him and he's off to the races once again.
Edited by Cody on August 20, 2014 4:08PM0 -
Bolt Escape is no problem, at least if playing DK, thx to Shield-charge and perma-root.
If perma-root would be fixed though, well, then Bolt Escape would be a problem, because with the new, larger resources everybody's got at hand, spamming Bolt Escape like in the beginning is no problem.
I don't think that there are any good solutions to this though, imo, a skill like Bolt-escape shouuldn't exist in the game, because it's like an "I survive" - button, putting the Sorcs in a completely special role, because they can basically "always" escape and get a tent up, where the group then can revive.
Maybe if sorcs would get a self-heal instead of Bolt-escape, that would fix the problem and people could take it in a good way.Noricum
Thx to Giny, Sarana, Thaili, Derra, Cherahim, Gloy, Raweelz and Drimacus, you make the game worth playing even with AoE-caps, no usefull progression past Assault / Support Rank 10, and with PvP being not even close to balanced.
Chars: Sera - VR12 Templar (Heal / DPS) ||| Seraliah - VR12 Dragonknight (DPS / Tank)1 -
ghengis_dhan✭✭✭We were taking an outpost a few days ago. When one of the other players realized they were heavily outnumbered, he started Bolt Escaping back towards the nearest keep. Six of us went after him.
The chase lasted about five minutes, but we finally took him down. I was using Retreating Maneuver so our group could keep up, and someone was able to get on their horse to sprint past him and force him to change directions.
At first I thought we were going to lose him because he Bolt Escaped about seven times in a row, but after a while, it was clear this sorcerer kept running out of magicka and had no other means to get away from us."It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19101 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO wrote: »Alright, this discussion is going nowhere. So let's evolve the "original question" based upon the discussions so far.
Original question: Is Bolt Escape still too cheap?
What if we asked: How can we tweak Bolt Escape to prevent builds that exploit/abuse streaking and still preserve its intended functionality to non-exploitative players?
Let's hear some suggestions. I'll start.
Streak. I myself use it as a gap closer or situational ranged interrupt. I don't think it should be able to be spammed. What if we gave it a cooldown without giving it a cooldown? What would that look like? Suggestion:
Streak
Revert to original non increasing magicka cost.
Retain the AoE Stun from point of cast that the unmorphed version causes.
If cast within 3 seconds, halve the distance traveled for each consecutive cast, down to a minimum of 5 meters. This debuff would be called "Overcharged". Streaking through already disoriented player now causes "Reverberation", which induces disorientation upon the caster for 2 seconds.
Ball Lightning. This was fine as an escape tool and out of combat movement ability and was inadvertently nerfed because of streak abuse. Suggestion:
Ball Lightning
Revert to original non increasing magicka cost.
I would still use the Streak morph on my sorc as a gap closer and ranged interrupt. It was always a tossup because I loved that initial aoe stun of the unmorphed version. This version has the best of both and prevents exploitation.
Buffs for those who don't abuse it!
Nerfs for exploiters!
Only problem IMO with BE is the Streak Morph that has AOE stun. That it has a stun is not the problem. That it has a spammable stun is. Spam BE for escape is totally cool IMO.
They have mechanism in place now costing more magicka when BE is used within 4 seconds of previous cast. Merely make it so Streak Stun is inactive for 4-8 seconds after initial cast, so every first cast would stun and then every other if one was to cast every 4 seconds. Something like that would help and still give the Sorc the offensive usage of the spell just not a spam stun.s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »Stop crying and please try to play a Sorc in PvP. Bolt escape does not help you escape 90% of the time. NBs will teleport to you even if you bolt escape. So many players use bows nowadays, that they will snipe you down.
+1 LOL You pulled that number out of a warm dark place lol. I think the other 75% of the player community would disagree with that statistic...just sayin.Edited by Vizier on August 22, 2014 1:11AM2 -
c0rp✭✭✭✭✭
✭You people defending bolt escape are delusional. Instant get away with basically no effort.
I'm In the process of lvling a Sorc because it's op. add into it the permenant incapacitate *** and it's the most op skill in the game.
ZoS and you people are blind.
Make sure you keep a tally of how many times you die because you are OOM trying to use BE....people who have no clue what they are talking should just not talk.Force weapon swap to have priority over EVERYTHING. Close enough.
Make stamina builds even with magicka builds.
Disable abilities while holding block.
Give us a REASON to do dungeons more than once.
Remove PVP AoE CAP. It is ruining Cyrodiil.
Fix/Remove Forward Camps. They are ruining Cyrodiil.
Impenetrability needs to REDUCE CRIT DAMAGE. Not negate entire builds.
Werewolf is not equal to Vamps/Bats.2 -
MADshadowman✭✭✭✭✭yeah, you guys really have no idea. play a sorc and you will see that BE is not an "i survive" button. you just have to block and you wont get stunned and like i mentioned several times in this post, there are so many ways to stop a streaking sorc. Every class has at least one skill that can hit a sorc mid-air and make him kiss the ground. And let the sorcs have this little aoe stun, which is so easily block-and breakable. Sorcs don't have unbreakable stuns or can permaroot people. Just stop whining now.3
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Francescolg✭✭✭✭MADshadowman wrote: »Sorcs don't have unbreakable stuns or can permaroot people.
Not true, sorcerers can chain-root you by constantly spamming the same skill, no matter if you use purge/immovable, you get re-rooted immediately after!
Edited by Francescolg on September 1, 2014 11:20AM1 -
rekina✭✭✭This is hilarious that seeing all Sorcerers gather up and make a wall of defense to this skill. BE is completely overpowered and people are still in denial. If someone asks me to pick just one skill that is totally overpowered, I'd pick bolt escape.2
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i get what he is saying, that new gear is re-raising the spell's effectiveness.
on the other hand we all know there is magicka/stam imbalance as is so we wait.
i assume there was no sorcerer in the pursuing party that could streak after him?
as a bow/sorc i used to run them down fairly easily. which illustrates that 1 specific build may require another specific build to counter it.0 -
Wahee✭✭✭SweetRollBandit wrote: »Lets be honest bolt escape is pretty much all Sorc builds have in a way of defense. Low armor and time consuming stuns aren't really fit for battling 7-8 enemies in pvp.
Don't see a problem with someone using it to their full capabilities so they don't get slaughtered all the time.
I'd like to introduce you to hardened ward. Shake hands and say hello. Then pop a harness magicka on top for good measure. Streak is most definitely not a sorc's only survivability tool.Mostly Harmless: PvP leader and officer
mostly-harmless-guild.com0 -
Francescolg wrote: »MADshadowman wrote: »Sorcs don't have unbreakable stuns or can permaroot people.
Not true, sorcerers can chain-root you by constantly spamming the same skill, no matter if you use purge/immovable, you get re-rooted immediately after!
Seriously? really? you cannot complain about a skill when you don't even understand/use implemented game mechanics.
Use break-free while disoriented; the subsequent cc immunity is your best friend for any and all cc in pvp. Try playing a sorcerer and see how many times u can "chain spam" lol. Probably about the same amount as licks to the center of a tootsie pop before you're dry on magicka. The ability has already been nerfed, HARD, on spammability.
On a side note: Streak is the ONLY CC in the game with an implemented negative effect if used in succession. All other cc's can be spammed repeatedly.
The only thing broken with streak is the nonexistent target cap.Edited by Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO on September 2, 2014 6:34PM2 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »Bolt Escape is no problem, at least if playing DK, thx to Shield-charge and perma-root.
If perma-root would be fixed though, well, then Bolt Escape would be a problem, because with the new, larger resources everybody's got at hand, spamming Bolt Escape like in the beginning is no problem.
I don't think that there are any good solutions to this though, imo, a skill like Bolt-escape shouuldn't exist in the game, because it's like an "I survive" - button, putting the Sorcs in a completely special role, because they can basically "always" escape and get a tent up, where the group then can revive.
Maybe if sorcs would get a self-heal instead of Bolt-escape, that would fix the problem and people could take it in a good way.
Dude, you play the two classes with the most survivability in the game, classes that are so ridiculously tough, that you need to drain all their friggin magikca before being able to finally finish the fight even if it was decided minutes before. And you seriously complain about sorcerers survivability?
You guys should really get some perspective, its embarrassing to watch you demanding a third nerf of BE, when no skill in the game got nerfed so hard before. How about we look into GDB and Blazing shield first, ha?Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
morvegil✭✭✭✭IT NEEDS A NERFLo'ke
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Asgari✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It was established streak was not working as it should with the player hit cap. Other than that why are we still discussing streak?
L2P and stop crying.Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
Princess Asgari | Sorc
Asgari | NB
-Asgari | Stamplar
Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
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Princess_Asgari wrote: »It was established streak was not working as it should with the player hit cap. Other than that why are we still discussing streak?
L2P and stop crying.
this.0 -
I wonder what is there to learn, when a sorc can bolt-escape multiple times leaving one with the thin chance of staying in kill-range if charging very quickly after every bolt escape, which can lead to ones own death if the sorc i. e. bolt-escaped into guards.
I believe, the problem would be very easily fixable, if the teleport needed a target to teleport to like charge, so Sorcs couldn't teleport through the wilderness. I know that's a nerf, but I cannot think of any other possibility to let the ability remain it's offensive value, because only the defensive-abuse is what makes players mad.
This, or, take the ability completely out of the game, and give sorc a well-working self-heal instead of it maybe.Noricum
Thx to Giny, Sarana, Thaili, Derra, Cherahim, Gloy, Raweelz and Drimacus, you make the game worth playing even with AoE-caps, no usefull progression past Assault / Support Rank 10, and with PvP being not even close to balanced.
Chars: Sera - VR12 Templar (Heal / DPS) ||| Seraliah - VR12 Dragonknight (DPS / Tank)1 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no equivalent to BE in the game for any other class. The Sorc Fanboys try to defend the indefensible and even after ZOS has confirmed it is NOT working as intended they still want to point at other class skills that are either broken eg. (Shadow Cloak) or since last patch might be doing more damage than intended, eg. (Blazing Shield), non of which work anything like BE. The Sorc apologists have no legs to stand on so they misdirect by pointing at non-related and broken skills.
Can you imagine the outcry if some of the gap closing skills had an AEO stun that hit whole groups without limits....ROFLMAO OMG the thought is delicious. But of course this would not happen because it would be ridiculously overpowered yet BE is just that, a multipurpose gap creator/closer that can actually do both at the same time, stun/damage unlimited players and generates tons of ultimate at lightning speed.
BE is a great skill that is OP atm and IS going to be tweaked, nerfed and altered by ZOS.
So Sorcs will have to L2P like the rest of us....BooFngHoo
What I think ..hope we see...:
Restricted Stun like stun can only happen every 10 seconds once it procs (give or take) Better yet have it stun only those the mage actually touches.
Doesn't work will CC'd
Should still be highly effective escape mechanismEdited by Vizier on September 3, 2014 4:03PM1 -
TheMachineKiller✭✭✭Um, no. Bolt Escape/Streak is our signature move. They've nerfed it once, about to nerf it twice, and it will not be nerfed a third time. Templars can stay alive forever by self healing, Dragonights can reflect everything at you constantly, and nightblades can bow attak/ambush/impale for quick kills. As sorc's our thing is bolt escape. We are a crafty tactiful class.Vehemence
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Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Today I was chasing a sorcerer from one keep to another one. He was bolt escaping and I was riding 75% speed horse.
p.s. I didn't catch him.Edited by Artis on September 5, 2014 6:08AM2 -
Asgari✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Today I was chasing a sorcerer from one keep to another one. He was bolt escaping and I was riding 75% speed horse.
p.s. I didn't catch him.
Lies!Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
Princess Asgari | Sorc
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-Asgari | Stamplar
Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
Banner Down!
No Mercy
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Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭No. Why would I lie? It's just that with new magicka regen caps, they can spam bolt escape again.
p.s. What really sucks is that they can use it both for attacking and escaping. And it feels like it stuns you even if you have just broken CC.
lol really? who can you kill like that? When DKs and Templars can dragonblood or shield+heals and sorcerer can spam bolt escape and run away, you can only kill another NB in stamina build lol. Because if he's in LA with resto staff, he will survive.and nightblades can bow attak/ambush/impale for quick kills.Edited by Artis on September 6, 2014 11:46PM0 -
Mud_Puppy✭✭✭Cost was never the problem. Neither was the mechanic. A simple cast time would have been fine./kill0 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skill is BS and needs fixing. Several times today dudes were just out running us due to this stupid skill and they could easily sneak, regain magicka (because let's face it this game favors magicka) and survive and gank again. It's one of the most ridiculous skills in the game.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »@Sheaden Please stop doing insane math and applying it to every sorcerer who's using this skill, i'm a highelf with poor magickaregen and no costreduction through set-pieces at all which means i only have my 7/7 light-armorpieces so i only have half of your theoretical OP-ness.
I use this ability offensively in pvp and pve and have done so since almost launch even before people were crying about it.
When i'm outnumbered i try my best to escape but i do the same when i play on my v2 Nightblade (and no, Cloak is not comlpetely broken as long as you don't apply dots to anyone).
People who aren't intrested in fair fights and gang up on one player shouldn't be complaining about balance when they're outsmarted or the other player gets lucky.
If I go invisible and get rooted theyou can see me in cloak because the root graphics. Which means I still don't get away. If you get rooted and bolt.they sure see you still but 15m away instantly after their cast. Which means no root again for you but if I dodge roll out I can be rooted again cause I'm still in their range. Which brings us again to magelight. This skill needs to only see crouch stealth and not detect invisibility. Two skills/mechanics to counter the nb from escaping. Your skill still has none. Weird how that works.
Agree on the magelight thing. And i know that it might be frustrating to see a sorc escape but any further nerfs will really make this skill useless (except the aoe-cap which is necessary). I can still catch every enemy-sorcerer who tries to get away with a combination of streak+invasion. And if he's rooted he'll loose half his speed while trying to bolt away.0 -
Epsilon_Echo✭✭✭✭Lets use a little logic here.
A mage with 2500 magic, 7-piece light armor, can cast BE 6 times before having to regen. 8 IF you have a 5-piece warlock and it procs correctly.
If you nerf it any more you savage any sorc who does not happen to have those 3 things, which I imagine are actually most players who play sorc.
Keep this in mind. I have a VR12 sorc. But it was not my first or main toon. I also have a VR12 DK and VR12 NB. I looooooaaaathed sorcs and their prissy BE spam as a DK main. But after nerf I am happy, and see no need for a further nerf. To do so would be a disservice to any sorc who isn't build for max magic pool.
I am also a duelist. I have killed some of the best sorcs in the game 1v1 as a DK and as a Sorc. So do me a favor and stop pretending like the spamming of any specific skill makes any real difference. Tactics are supreme for the most part in this game and using tactics best suited to you class. If some classes were not better than others at specific things then we wouldn't have classes in the first place. And before anyone says it, lets not walk down that road, the last thing we need is a classless skill bar with GDB, BE, Sunshield, Concealed weapon, and Crystal shards.
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