Come across a Cheater? I have the solution

Makkir · August 2014

When I played old school EverQuest I was party of the community that worked on a fan site that basically put to shame the well known exploiters and cheaters in the game.
Since that behavior is prohibited on these forums I cannot post a direct link to the fan site I created for ESO that basically does the same thing. I am a huge Anti-Bully advocate outside game, and I am always looking to bring a better gaming experience to players like you. Lets face it, there are cheaters and dirtbags out there that ruin your gaming life or bring it to a level of frustration.
A lot of the time they slip through the crack because of the delay or lack of in game reporting, or slow response from Developers and Moderators. When there is evidence and concrete proof of such actions, I think it helps the community to make these game criminals known. Guilds can also use my site as a reference if they want to quickly investigate guild applicants.
I don't want to post a link in here just yet, as I am not sure if it violates the code of conduct since I am not specifically shaming any one specifically in this thread. If you like a link please send me a PM. There are instructions on how to submit your proof on the website :-)

Goodnight
Please note the website currently is in progress and contains NO exploiters as of tonight. I have 20 cases currently under review and if determined only then will be posted to the site.

Carnagan · August 2014

How will you ensure that this website isn't used by people who have a grudge or mistook just what happened from attacking an innocent player? In other words, what are you going to do and how are you going to investigate to make sure that the accused are actually cheating? How are you going to investigate specific events more accurately than the Mods can?

This is kind of group dog-piling is exactly why naming and shaming is against the terms of service.

AlexDougherty · August 2014

I agree with @Carnagan , these websites start high ideals, but sooner or later you will name and shame an innocent person. You have little or no way of confirming most of these accussations, because you will always with twenty cases or more for every person trying to investigate.

AtriasNaradan · August 2014

Agreed with both above me.

In one other game, i've been a victim of being shamed just for the sake of personal dislikes. Some parties keep trying to find any mean to say that i'm a cheater just because they saw me as arrogant prick who achieved things out of their comfort zones (i did have a hard time achieving those things, but i did it anyway for some legal challenge, not through any kind of cheat).

The only saving me is that i'm not cheating and the game devs knows it, and i was actually one that secretly giving the devs any cheating forum i found related to that game.

Regardless, normal players who don't know better often see me (and some of my in-game friends) with bad eyes due to the false accusations made by haters and trolls from the opposition parties. I don't want that kind of thing to happen in this community as well, to any innocent players.

So, how will you prevent false accusation of innocent players from reaching your hall of shame at all?

Makkir · August 2014

I've been overwhelmed with feedback and emails to the website, but to answer some quick questions:
I am not affiliated with ZOS so nothing I say is official. How many other sites are out there, forums, cheat forums, blogs, guild sites, hack sites, etc that shame people, maybe innocent, or bash/flame people? Tons, right? Basically, people can use my site and take it as they will.
ZOS doesn't allow flaming and such on their forums, but what prevents it on a different forum? Nothing. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but we are going to have a fairly decent screening process and make that decision ourselves. We are not going to shame people for asking dumb questions in zone chat, having opposing viewpoints, or trolling. But can we if we wanted to? Yes. So bascially to answer your question, it's on our authority how we will determine legit cases, but I am also publicly stating that my site is not the appropriate place for the every day drama you see here on these forums. It's more "bigger" issues like exploiting and cheating.

Makkir · August 2014

Atrias, you can PM me if you are more comfortable. I've played every big title MMO out there and it SOUNDS LIKE you are talking about WoW Achievements and people accusing you of win trading, or something to the effect. That is pretty popular over in that game.

If I made a website to accuse people of win trading, it would eat up all my time. It's unneccessary since you can view achievements in game and make that determination yourself.

I am more so talking about people using third party software to auto-interrupt your spell casting, DDOS attacks, Gold Duping and exploiting. I'm not going to shame you for finding an in game bug that is relatively harmless (like walking on water in a remote area or something like that).

Most of the feedback I am getting right now is hacks involving Cyrodiil and proof that people are using third party software.

If you go around in game scamming people for gold (taking their money and not holding your end of the deal) then you deserve to made public. Those are the types of people I am after. Better explained?

Carnagan · August 2014

How does the fact that there are other sites that do this out there somehow justify adding another one into the mix? If anything it would suggest that adding a new one isn't going to help the situation any further.

Are you only going to list names that you have personally witnessed and have absolute proof have hacked or exploited? What surety do you have that you aren't being used to harass the innocent?

You also haven't explained HOW you are going to make sure that every complaint is valid. That you plan to isn't nearly as important as giving a full description of your methodology.

How are you going to be sure that there was no lag involved in an event, or that someone with a lot of gold or items actually duped them? Why are you better at getting this done more accurately than ZOS, who can actually check logs to weigh the validity of a complaint.

Why is it bad to bully people in the real world but OK to set up a tool that will be a great platform for cyberbullying?

This idea as not been thought through.

Makkir · August 2014

The resource will be there to raise awareness, it's up to you the viewer to decide it's legitimacy and use.

Technically speaking, I am free to do as I wish and am not bound by any rules or restrictions when it comes to how I want to evaluate. I am not an authoritative figure nor do I work for ZOS so my opinion only matters to those who put weight in to it. I was here to say "hey I am doing this, and I am putting a lot time into making sure it's legit." It's up to you to decide if you want o buy into it or not.

Carnagan · August 2014

Makkir wrote: »

The resource will be there to raise awareness, it's up to you the viewer to decide it's legitimacy and use.

Technically speaking, I am free to do as I wish and am not bound by any rules or restrictions when it comes to how I want to evaluate. I am not an authoritative figure nor do I work for ZOS so my opinion only matters to those who put weight in to it. I was here to say "hey I am doing this, and I am putting a lot time into making sure it's legit." It's up to you to decide if you want o buy into it or not.

You're saying that people can choose to buy into it or not. Will someone who isn't cheating but is being targeted by people using your site have the option to buy out of it?

I agree that you are free to do as you wish. But you are deluding yourself if you think you bear no responsibility for innocent people being hurt. Especially when it has been pointed out that it is a possibility and you are taking no action to prevent it.

Makkir · August 2014

Who said I was taking no action? I have rule listed on the website for submissions. You're nit-picking now.

Carnagan · August 2014

Makkir wrote: »

Who said I was taking no action? I have rule listed on the website for submissions. You're nit-picking now.

No,@Makkir, I'm just pointing out how there are no safeguards. Posting rules and having no mechanism to thoroughly investigate the claim means you are running on the honour system. You're trusting that anyone submitting something is being honest but know that it is possible that they unfairly attacking someone.

At no point have you explained how you intend to investigate claims. You've only said that you're going to post rules and leave it to the viewer to do with it as they will. If the point of the site is to make the community better then you need to make sure that the information is completely accurate and that no one is purposefully or inadvertently attacked when they haven't done anything wrong. If you can't meet that threshold then you are creating a mechanism that is going to be more and more likely to poison the community as your site grows.

If you want to create a name and shame site with the intention of making the community better then you need to put in the time and effort to ensure that every single name posted is definitely and unquestionably a cheater. I don't see how you can possibly do that without access to the kinds of information that the developers have.

AtriasNaradan · August 2014

Makkir wrote: »

Atrias, you can PM me if you are more comfortable. I've played every big title MMO out there and it SOUNDS LIKE you are talking about WoW Achievements and people accusing you of win trading, or something to the effect. That is pretty popular over in that game.

If I made a website to accuse people of win trading, it would eat up all my time. It's unneccessary since you can view achievements in game and make that determination yourself.

I am more so talking about people using third party software to auto-interrupt your spell casting, DDOS attacks, Gold Duping and exploiting. I'm not going to shame you for finding an in game bug that is relatively harmless (like walking on water in a remote area or something like that).

Most of the feedback I am getting right now is hacks involving Cyrodiil and proof that people are using third party software.

If you go around in game scamming people for gold (taking their money and not holding your end of the deal) then you deserve to made public. Those are the types of people I am after. Better explained?

It's not WoW, i'm actually one that never play WoW. But for more detail on the story, lets just say that on that game there's an unlimited skyshards (meant to be unlimited, not a cheat), which we can only get by killing tough champion rank enemies, and it's used to buy stats (health, mana, stamina)...unlimited stats as much as shards we can get. Those who hate me actually hates me for killing big tough bosses without being a skyshard heavy farmer like them (they labeled it as impossible to do, but i post a vid of it on the forum proving it as possible).

On top of that all, i was rejecting their elite guild invitation and decide to create a guild of my own, which rival them, hence they hate my guildmates as well...and try to bring me and my friends down through any possible mean, including trolling, false accusations, and character killing. The worst thing is, they were all at first good in-game friends of mine.

..............

Anyway, it's tough, and i know for sure that not all people can stay as long as i was (some of my guildmates quits for good). That's why i don't want that kind of disaster happens in this game to anyone. I'm not going to support and neither will i goes against your project, i'll stay neutral in this...but just saying to think it over on how you can prevent any false accusation and defamation to reach your hall of shame later on. Always keep in mind that some people will go so far to defame people they hate, and it's easier to do that on internet and with today's technologies.

Makkir · August 2014

Carnagan wrote: »

If you want to create a name and shame site with the intention of making the community better then you need to put in the time and effort to ensure that every single name posted is definitely and unquestionably a cheater. I don't see how you can possibly do that without access to the kinds of information that the developers have.

Well thank you for re-iterating what I have already mentioned all across the internet (reddit, TF, dozen other ESO fan sites)

- I have 15+ years of MMO experience
- I member on my team was a correspondent/dev in a previous MMO
- I have "membership, subscription" access to a couple of hack/cheat sites. I think this information is a benefit and important for me to know what is going on in the "underground" gaming world.
- Nothing will be publicly posted without substantial and solid evidence.

I am going to end this conversation on the ZOS forums and continue QA on other fan sites. I have a lot of work ahead of me.

Thank you for input/suggestions