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Why did they bother to put weapons in this game?
jelliedsoup
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Is it because previous es games had them, so they felt obligated to?
The whole 'design' of weapons, stamina etc appears to have been an afterthought and trying to squeeze them in there to make it similar to the other es games.
Really? Sort it out, youve had months now and the steady stream of improvements are NOT focussing on weapons so I will assume zos considers them fixed.
Whoever had this vision should go design a game without weapons, and not let those who actually want weapons to pester you with requests to improve them.
The whole 'design' of weapons, stamina etc appears to have been an afterthought and trying to squeeze them in there to make it similar to the other es games.
Really? Sort it out, youve had months now and the steady stream of improvements are NOT focussing on weapons so I will assume zos considers them fixed.
Whoever had this vision should go design a game without weapons, and not let those who actually want weapons to pester you with requests to improve them.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO4
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lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cause fist fights with bosses may be one sided.
* edited for typo it's early here
Edited by lathbury on August 28, 2014 5:14AM2 -
Zhoyzu✭✭✭✭✭
there is a difference between 'maybe' and 'may be'Cause fist fights with bosses maybe one sided
Zhoyzu - Nightblade Alchemist (v15) RETIRED
Has-No-Heart - Templar Enchanter (v4) FUBAR
Ambadassador - Dragon knight (v1) Naked with no future (returned from the naked realm to tank PvE)
Sakis Tolis - Sorceror (v10 in progress) Living Legend!
Xuhl'Xotuun - Warden Current Main as im starting the game over essentially with this character aside from crafting.
Creator of Khajiit fall dmg reduction racial passive concept.4 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭Who knows at this point.☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
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NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB1 -
AoEnwyr✭✭✭✭Some of the weapon skills are pretty good. Are you suggesting that the weapon itself is pointless but the skill trees ok or that you don't like the actual weapon skills?
I use Two Handed and Resto Staff in my build and am quite happy with them 1 -
bosmern_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭jelliedsoup wrote: »Is it because previous es games had them, so they felt obligated to?
The whole 'design' of weapons, stamina etc appears to have been an afterthought and trying to squeeze them in there to make it similar to the other es games.
Really? Sort it out, youve had months now and the steady stream of improvements are NOT focussing on weapons so I will assume zos considers them fixed.
Whoever had this vision should go design a game without weapons, and not let those who actually want weapons to pester you with requests to improve them.
People on the receiving end of my 30% crit 2h battle axe say other wise.
Honestly, I have tons of stamina so I get to smack people with brawler to keep myself going and then reverse slice them, usually they will hit a crit of anywhere between 600-1200, I'd like to see those with crit resist stop that. I'm a NB 2h wielder and I laugh when I see a DK bathrobe user, I can almost 2 shot everyone in pvp, but for DK's and temps stacking shields, it will take about 10 hits.~Thallen~3 -
jelliedsoup✭✭✭✭✭I havebosmern_ESO wrote: »jelliedsoup wrote: »Is it because previous es games had them, so they felt obligated to?
The whole 'design' of weapons, stamina etc appears to have been an afterthought and trying to squeeze them in there to make it similar to the other es games.
Really? Sort it out, youve had months now and the steady stream of improvements are NOT focussing on weapons so I will assume zos considers them fixed.
Whoever had this vision should go design a game without weapons, and not let those who actually want weapons to pester you with requests to improve them.
People on the receiving end of my 30% crit 2h battle axe say other wise.
Honestly, I have tons of stamina so I get to smack people with brawler to keep myself going and then reverse slice them, usually they will hit a crit of anywhere between 600-1200, I'd like to see those with crit resist stop that. I'm a NB 2h wielder and I laugh when I see a DK bathrobe user, I can almost 2 shot everyone in pvp, but for DK's and temps stacking shields, it will take about 10 hits.
I have 45% weapon crit, and bow,DW, NB.
I use flurry and get between 500-800, and the snipe is good from distance. But the skills are pretty lacklustre, I use 2 skills from weapons per bar at most. You can play this game without using weapons, you cannot play without using class skills.
Not sure how you beat a blocking templar or dk with weapon skills.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO40 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭Most people that read my posts know that I've got a number of stamina builds and I consider them very strong in PVP and I like them a lot, but there is an up hill battle for stamina builds when compared to magic builds and to pretend otherwise is silly.
There's something about this game that just feels broken, on first glance it's broken but any deep look at it and things start to stand out, it's like big changes were made late in the game with the class system or they just never thought this out properly.4 -
dennissomb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Simply put, smart people use weapon skills along side their class skills. Weapons have many great abilities that compliment the skills of their class. What I see to often is people claiming weapons are useless because they want to use "only" weapon skills. One hand and shield is crucial to my heavy armor DK. Bow and DW are crucial to my leather wearing NB. What I don't do is put all weapon skills on my bar. I use the best of weapon and class skills to accomplish whatever it is I may be doing
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »Simply put, smart people use weapon skills along side their class skills. Weapons have many great abilities that compliment the skills of their class. What I see to often is people claiming weapons are useless because they want to use "only" weapon skills. One hand and shield is crucial to my heavy armor DK. Bow and DW are crucial to my leather wearing NB. What I don't do is put all weapon skills on my bar. I use the best of weapon and class skills to accomplish whatever it is I may be doing
This.
I can't fathom people who thought they could load their bar out entirely with skills from one tree and be effective.----
Murray?2 -
yiasemi✭✭✭✭Meh, I die gloriously, every day, with a soul gem attached to each weapon hand so even one severed limb won't stop my daily swashbucklery, depending on how I bit the dust today. A few points into world magic don't hurt either. I could have been a contender....Edited by yiasemi on August 28, 2014 1:19PM2 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »Simply put, smart people use weapon skills along side their class skills. Weapons have many great abilities that compliment the skills of their class. What I see to often is people claiming weapons are useless because they want to use "only" weapon skills.jelliedsoup wrote: »You can play this game without using weapons, you cannot play without using class skills.
ZOS appear to have balanced magicka and stamina users in a vacuum, where they wrongly compare all weapon ability users to all class ability users, when in reality it is nigh impossible to play that way, and next to no one would even attempt to.
They completely rely on slightly higher weapon crit than spell crit to achieve some semblance of balance between stamina and magicka builds, but this is completely negated by the fact that all decent players in PVP stack Impenetrable to cap.
So, you end up with an effectively weak set of utility skills and mediocre damage without crit and split stats, while magicka users can just dump all their points into health and magicka for both class and staff abilities and faceroll to victory.
The weapons themselves aren't horrible, in fact there are some useful abilities in each. However when it comes to balance in this game, ZOS seems unwilling to admit their mistakes.
They would rather take away cool things like the stacking sneak speed bonus on the new Night Mother set than talk about re-thinking their stamina design philosophy.2 -
Dovhakiin✭✭An NB Bow User would laugh at you while sniping the heck out of you...I use a DK tank as my main and I dont think weapon skills are useless.0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭stamina build = / = weapon build.
You can argue stamina as a resource is badly designed, but no need to make excessive statement.Edited by crislevin on August 28, 2014 1:38PM2 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭stamina build = / = weapon build.
You can argue stamina as a resource is badly designed, but no need to make excessive statement.
Well, actually, if you think about it, it IS the same.
Every single weapon in the game EXCEPT staff uses stamina as a resource, and to determine how much damage the abilities do.
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crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
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"except" makes it sounds like a tiny outlier of some kind, the fact remains that 33% of weapon skills use magicka.AlienDiplomat wrote: »stamina build = / = weapon build.
You can argue stamina as a resource is badly designed, but no need to make excessive statement.
Well, actually, if you think about it, it IS the same.
Every single weapon in the game EXCEPT staff uses stamina as a resource, and to determine how much damage the abilities do.
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Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why weapons? They look cool and they're fun to play with. Plus if Slurg didn't have weapons in her hands, she might be tempted to take up smoking and that's a nasty habit.Happy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.0 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
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"except" makes it sounds like a tiny outlier of some kind, the fact remains that 33% of weapon skills use magicka.AlienDiplomat wrote: »stamina build = / = weapon build.
You can argue stamina as a resource is badly designed, but no need to make excessive statement.
Well, actually, if you think about it, it IS the same.
Every single weapon in the game EXCEPT staff uses stamina as a resource, and to determine how much damage the abilities do.
Really? You're gonna hammer this point? OK then...
Offensive weapons that use Stamina:
Two Handed
One Hand and Shield
Dual Wield
Bow
Offensive weapons that use Magicka:
Destruction Staff
No, restoration staff DOESN'T count, because we were talking about damage scaling of weapon abilities and Restoration Staff has no offensive abilities that do damage, other than basic light and heavy attacks.
So in reality, a more accurate statement would be that 80% of the offensive weapons in the game use stamina.
That means to be effective, 80% of the builds in the game have to split stats between two resources to power abilities from their class (which scale damage off magicka) and weapon (which scale damage off stamina), EXCEPT the 20% that use Destruction Staff (and Restoration Staff, for heals), who can just dump all their points in magicka.
Of course the numbers don't end up looking like that. Due to this imbalance, what actually ends up happening is that 80% of players abandon the 80% of offensive weapons that use stamina and use a build with light armor and staff.
That is why forums around the internet call it "ESO: Equip Staff Only" and "ESO: Elder Skirts Online." XDEdited by Phinix1 on August 28, 2014 2:23PM0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ok then what?
Where did OP mention anything about "offensive" abilities? Who are "WE" that were talking about damage scaling?
Why are you ignoring the fact people can use restoration staff in offensive mode just FINE?
Why do you think restoration staff is somehow "ineffective" when massive number and percentage of players use it to great extent?
Your frustration, while maybe legit, has nothing to do with if there should be a weapon in hand, if you want stamina to be a better designed resource, argue about that.
Edited by crislevin on August 28, 2014 2:32PM1 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why are you ignoring the fact people can use restoration staff in offensive mode just FINE?
Why do you think restoration staff is somehow "ineffective" when massive number and percentage of players use it to great extent?
No one said you can't use Restoration Staff in an offensive build. All I said was that it does not have any ABILITIES of its OWN that are offensive.
All class skills scale their damage off of magicka. So do resto staff heals. So of course, a person that puts a ton into magicka is going to benefit both on whatever class skills are on their resto bar AND the heals.
My argument is pretty simple. Having staff be the only weapon that doesn't require splitting stats to do damage is just silly.
The simply fix is to have class skills scale off of whatever is higher, magicka or stamina.
A BETTER solution would be to have two alternate morphs for each class ability that cause them to USE on resource or the other.
That way I could spec my class into melee, and have stamina powered and damage-scaled class abilities.2 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have played many different builds on my nightblade. I've done full stam (including weapon/ fighters guild only), full magic, hybrid, tank, stupid things like 'guild skills only' and 'lowest dps skills only'. Really just a lot of messing around and having fun. So that's where I draw my perspective from.
It is really annoying when you can equip a staff or even go bare handed and be more effective than holding a weapon (situationally or otherwise).
Let's take for example a quick and dirty melee build (comparing 2h min maxed hybrid w/ 'just thrown on' magica build staff, and no weapon);
Veiled strike/assassin's blade/teleport strike/[cc/kb; uppercut, destructive clench *fire, volcanic rune]/[quick hit; reverse slash or cleave, force shock or impulse, strife or drain power.
Using the exact same or at (least similar) rotational pattern, the staff and no weapon both not only have better damage at close range, but better utility as well. Both the clench and rune can hard cc multiple enemies in the time it takes for uppercut to hit one (all in melee range), plus you can throw in a non animation canceled veiled strike on the target of the two abilities and effectively do the damage of one uppercut. And as they are instant, you can't be bashed/blocked out of them like with uppercut.
That doesn't even take into account the joy of quickly and easily being able to throw a guy into the air then tp striking to him mid flight. I can dest clench, ambush, and supprise attack someone before I can land an uppercut, and it is far more fun and safe with significantly more damage to do so.
Reverse slash does good damage, but it is more telegraphed than the other two, and does not have their bonus potential. Cleave applies a good bleed dot, which is essentially useless in aoe fights vs impulse or drain power. You can morph to carve to give good ult generation, but impulse and drain power can do just as well if not better. They have far more forgiving aoe, and sap essence is 2 2h skills in one. It gives you an instant rally (instant weapon damage and heal and is far more usefull in both because it's instant and lasts longer) and a carve hit due to transfer. *bonus* its spammable without worrying about wasting 75% of the skills damage.
Why do you think resto staff is so strong? I can equip the 'weaponless' build and get a free 10% to damage, all the while holding block, with the added bonus of regenerating 15% mana on a heavy attack.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Evergnar✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Shunravi that pretty much sums it up.I have played many different builds on my nightblade. I've done full stam (including weapon/ fighters guild only), full magic, hybrid, tank, stupid things like 'guild skills only' and 'lowest dps skills only'. Really just a lot of messing around and having fun. So that's where I draw my perspective from.
It is really annoying when you can equip a staff or even go bare handed and be more effective than holding a weapon (situationally or otherwise).
Let's take for example a quick and dirty melee build (comparing 2h min maxed hybrid w/ 'just thrown on' magica build staff, and no weapon);
Veiled strike/assassin's blade/teleport strike/[cc/kb; uppercut, destructive clench *fire, volcanic rune]/[quick hit; reverse slash or cleave, force shock or impulse, strife or drain power.
Using the exact same or at (least similar) rotational pattern, the staff and no weapon both not only have better damage at close range, but better utility as well. Both the clench and rune can hard cc multiple enemies in the time it takes for uppercut to hit one (all in melee range), plus you can throw in a non animation canceled veiled strike on the target of the two abilities and effectively do the damage of one uppercut. And as they are instant, you can't be bashed/blocked out of them like with uppercut.
That doesn't even take into account the joy of quickly and easily being able to throw a guy into the air then tp striking to him mid flight. I can dest clench, ambush, and supprise attack someone before I can land an uppercut, and it is far more fun and safe with significantly more damage to do so.
Reverse slash does good damage, but it is more telegraphed than the other two, and does not have their bonus potential. Cleave applies a good bleed dot, which is essentially useless in aoe fights vs impulse or drain power. You can morph to carve to give good ult generation, but impulse and drain power can do just as well if not better. They have far more forgiving aoe, and sap essence is 2 2h skills in one. It gives you an instant rally (instant weapon damage and heal and is far more usefull in both because it's instant and lasts longer) and a carve hit due to transfer. *bonus* its spammable without worrying about wasting 75% of the skills damage.
Why do you think resto staff is so strong? I can equip the 'weaponless' build and get a free 10% to damage, all the while holding block, with the added bonus of regenerating 15% mana on a heavy attack.
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rsciw✭✭✭AlienDiplomat wrote: »Why are you ignoring the fact people can use restoration staff in offensive mode just FINE?
Why do you think restoration staff is somehow "ineffective" when massive number and percentage of players use it to great extent?
No one said you can't use Restoration Staff in an offensive build. All I said was that it does not have any ABILITIES of its OWN that are offensive.
It doesn't have any active abilities of its own that are offensive, but a passive ability increases damage by 2% per 20% health you have, so at 100% health you get 10% extra dmg with resto staff equipped, using pretty much any non-weapon specific skill you want.
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jelliedsoup✭✭✭✭✭An NB Bow User would laugh at you while sniping the heck out of you...I use a DK tank as my main and I dont think weapon skills are useless.
The irony us I use snipe and know it's good, snipe from sneak, heavy attack Etc and yet I'm still complaining?www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO40