Why I'm liking ESO and why I don't get all the hate.

raglau · August 2014

Vatter wrote: »

Only the casual solo player that has no concern with paying money for a broken product remains. The tens of thousands who know this product is broken have already left.

Even ZOS knows this product is broken. They pushed the console release back to December.

Evidently you are right about the console release but the former statement is not necessarily true. My guild is buoyant and plays group content regularly, several times a week in fact.

People like me will team up with new guildies to help them finish group content which we have already done, or to help them get achievements\skill points they have missed whilst leveling etc. We do this because we actually like the game and we're mainly very committed gamers, in my case with decades of gaming under my belt.

So yeah, I can see why you may perceive it the way you state, but that's not a universal truth.

Pseudonym · August 2014

The game has many bugs, and some serious issues to resolve, but none of that matters to me, because I know these things will get ironed out sooner or later, and what we will be left with is one fantastic MMO.

I'm already totally invested in this, if not for the overwhelming amount of bugs, I'd say we have a top MMO contender on our hands.

If this game has anything; it's potential.

Ninnghizhidda · August 2014

Tapio75 wrote: »

-Combat. There are classes, they are all magick classes. You can not be true warrior at all. Yes, there is melee and bow skill line but every and each of them has something magickal on them that uses stamina like Sword and board reflect spell which really is wizards counter spell. You feel just like in any other MMO, you press quickbar buttons to activate stuff. While quickbar slots are good in this game in general, those melee and bow abilities should just stay focused on abilities that do not seem magickal at all. There is enough magick in classes.

For me, this is the single and most disappointing "feature" of ESO. I would consider everything else more or less irrelevant or of very minor importance. But THIS one completely ruined so far all my expectations and continues to be a source of frustration. Still hoping they will get it right... But right now they seem pretty slow at doing anything significant, and, sadly, the whole game pretty much feels like "Elder Mages Online" (blah).

Otherwise, the game is really good, I would even say exceptional. Just fix this dreadful thing with classes and "warriors" already.

Elsonso · August 2014

Tapio75 wrote: »

-Combat. There are classes, they are all magick classes. You can not be true warrior at all.

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

For me, this is the single and most disappointing "feature" of ESO.

My expectation is that a future release will introduce a new class with new class skills that are stamina based warrior skills.

Psychobunni · August 2014

@Resueht and @eventide03b14a_ESO ...thank-you both for answering that directly. I didn't know and most likely would never be bothered with finding out who owns what exactly, who is the bottom line of producing what. I'll take your word(s) for it for the time being

Edit: Is "eventide" a MTG shout out?

epoling · August 2014

People that say "I only rage and complain about ESO because I care about it so much" reminds me of the guys who say "I only beat my wife because I love her so much". If you really care about something you may criticize it, but you find a decent way to do it.

Fleymark · August 2014

I'll just say this...Before you pass judgement on anyone "hating" anything get a toon into the veteran ranks, particularly a stamina build, and then watch several patch cycles go by. Paying sub fees for months in the process.

I love this game myself, thought people were chicken little nutters the way they were railing on it when I started. Then I saw first hand what was making them "nuts"...The developers of this game simply REFUSE to make fixing the handful of significant game-killing problems that this game has a real priority. They could, particularly bringing stamina builds (half or more of the builds in the game and the only way a lot of people care to play) in line with magicka. Performance issues and exploits in PvP. The weak WEAK group dynamic this game, an MMO, has on so many levels. Things that cut straight to the core of aa game's playability from a basic game theory standpoint.

And you notice these things, finally, around the time the honeymoon is over and the novelty of the beautiful graphics and animations (which they are), the excellent quest system (which it is) and the awesome class/build system wear off. They go to a major marketing event a month, just like they patch about once a month, and wax poetic about all of the things they plan to do for the game. You get all excited and look forward to those things. Then start to notice that while they do this every month, when the monthly patched come they actually push live two of the minorest things from 3 marketing events ago while your chosen weapon build gets a minor tweak to one skill and maybe a passive.

And you are paying sub fees the while time, like patience on a monument, while they prioritize things like armor dyes over making the game truly "play your way" as advertised from the beginning. While playing an alt with a build that works through the same linear content because you hit a wall with your main who can't get in trials groups. Content that was added well after the balance issues were known and took the problem from some builds being "unfavorable" to "completely unviable."

Look at it this way...At least us "haters" that are still around actually support the game and are trying to make it better. When I started in the first month the onesthen played beta and were jumping ship before the free month was up. And, honestly, for good reason. Some of us, as critical as we may be, do love the game and do want it to be better, we just aren't going to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is just wonderful when it's not and pretend that good design decisions are being made when they aren't.

Get some experience with this bunch and some perspective before you start throwing stones at people you think are "haters."

Ohioastro · August 2014

I've been playing since early release. Do the critics honestly think that people like me - who like the game just fine - simply haven't reached the point in the game where we can see that they're right and that we're wrong?

Or maybe, just maybe, your opinion is not universal. And there is a difference between constructive advice and toxic behavior. I appreciate reading the former. However, when you go around blowing up minor glitches into "a broken game", or start proclaiming that only people who haven't reached vet ranks could possibly like the game, or the like, then you're neither engaging in a discussion nor are you being constructive.

Games don't last forever. If you're not having fun, stop playing; if you would like a feature, chime in and say so. Your burnout does not mean that everyone else is burned out, and a design decision can be perfectly fine for others even if you don't like it yourself. I resigned myself to this years ago in MMOs; I prefer more interesting puzzles, but most MMO players want simple and easy time-killers, and that's what most of the genre is. The key is to play what you like and not to make a game into what it isn't.

Fleymark · August 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

I've been playing since early release. Do the critics honestly think that people like me - who like the game just fine - simply haven't reached the point in the game where we can see that they're right and that we're wrong?

Or maybe, just maybe, your opinion is not universal. And there is a difference between constructive advice and toxic behavior. I appreciate reading the former. However, when you go around blowing up minor glitches into "a broken game", or start proclaiming that only people who haven't reached vet ranks could possibly like the game, or the like, then you're neither engaging in a discussion nor are you being constructive.

Games don't last forever. If you're not having fun, stop playing; if you would like a feature, chime in and say so. Your burnout does not mean that everyone else is burned out, and a design decision can be perfectly fine for others even if you don't like it yourself. I resigned myself to this years ago in MMOs; I prefer more interesting puzzles, but most MMO players want simple and easy time-killers, and that's what most of the genre is. The key is to play what you like and not to make a game into what it isn't.

Are you suggesting that half or more of the builds in a game that was and is marketed as "play your way" and two weapons and one armor type (one third of the options available before you even get into permutations) being so over balanced compared to all others, in one extreme case (trials) the only viable options, are "minor glitches?"

I don't see anyone "trying to make a game what it isn't." I see people asking for the game they were sold, continue to pay for, and have yet to get.

There's a major difference.

Maverick827 · August 2014

epoling wrote: »

People that say "I only rage and complain about ESO because I care about it so much" reminds me of the guys who say "I only beat my wife because I love her so much". If you really care about something you may criticize it, but you find a decent way to do it.

Yes, because comparing critics to wife beaters is helpful.

Woolenthreads · August 2014

I'm an ESO addict, so I'm not sure of the validity of my opinion

. I like games for development of state/character. It means that quick games and RTS' are not of interest to me. This is why I have an abundance of different characters, I like to spend time developing their skills in different ways.

I have only had one serious game-breaking bug in Rivenspire. Any other frustration is due to solo Bosses made inordinately harder than other critters as a challenge for veterans in a dungeon. World Bosses I can accept because getting my 455 handed to me because of a poor choice is fine. Getting pounded because I absolutely must fight this Boss alone, in order to move on, is aggravating.

However, I am still playing

Fleymark · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

epoling wrote: »

People that say "I only rage and complain about ESO because I care about it so much" reminds me of the guys who say "I only beat my wife because I love her so much". If you really care about something you may criticize it, but you find a decent way to do it.

Yes, because comparing critics to wife beaters is helpful.

Seriously. Another typical ESO forums post. Don't like the game? You're a BAD PERSON, like a wife beater. It's ridiculous.

I'll criticize the game I've paid for since early access anyway I like, how I like. If people don't like it, that's their problem.

My patience with the fanboys, the self-appointed passive aggressive forum police, and the sloth's pace at which the developers of this game have chosen address the significant problems that plague this game has waned as we approach the half a year mark.

And I will discuss it as I please on the discussion forums that I pay for.

sagitter · August 2014

GrimGryphon wrote: »

Love the game and can't think of any other MMO I'm interested in playing.

The worst part of this game is the constant whining from other players.

True, and unfortunately this is not the first mmo where i've found them , i remember the Daoc VN Boards... Less or more, you will find them in most of mmos.

Zaann · August 2014

Great OP Ogriv ... I don't follow many game forums, specifically because of the overwhelming amount of crap people spend time posting/fighting about. I've definitely become desensitized to the hate, reading between the lines to take away my own meaning ... but it's certainly very refreshing to read a post like this.

Insightful + Agree + Awesome

Anastasia · August 2014

Tapio75 wrote: »

Well, with Stat scaling option extended to all zones, you could just play with scaled character or the level fashion way like now

It would still be greater challenge to go level 50 zones (i would prefer scaled zones to be vr5 like Cyrodil and me scale to 50) as level 10 than as level 20, 40 or 50 since you dont have all the passives, abilities and other perks you have otherwise plus your armor is still that weak level 10 armor.

EDIT: Number and locations of missing parts of Tamriel are such, that they could easily create totally new storylines and starting areas to them but i would still prefer scaled option to go anywhere

Let me ask this ... you are suggesting/asking/wanting the above ideas in this (*) MMO?

Ohioastro · August 2014

Fleymark wrote: »

Ohioastro wrote: »

I've been playing since early release. Do the critics honestly think that people like me - who like the game just fine - simply haven't reached the point in the game where we can see that they're right and that we're wrong?

Or maybe, just maybe, your opinion is not universal. And there is a difference between constructive advice and toxic behavior. I appreciate reading the former. However, when you go around blowing up minor glitches into "a broken game", or start proclaiming that only people who haven't reached vet ranks could possibly like the game, or the like, then you're neither engaging in a discussion nor are you being constructive.

Games don't last forever. If you're not having fun, stop playing; if you would like a feature, chime in and say so. Your burnout does not mean that everyone else is burned out, and a design decision can be perfectly fine for others even if you don't like it yourself. I resigned myself to this years ago in MMOs; I prefer more interesting puzzles, but most MMO players want simple and easy time-killers, and that's what most of the genre is. The key is to play what you like and not to make a game into what it isn't.

Are you suggesting that half or more of the builds in a game that was and is marketed as "play your way" and two weapons and one armor type (one third of the options available before you even get into permutations) being so over balanced compared to all others, in one extreme case (trials) the only viable options, are "minor glitches?"

I don't see anyone "trying to make a game what it isn't." I see people asking for the game they were sold, continue to pay for, and have yet to get.

There's a major difference.

First of all, the differences between the armor and weapon skills have been massively exaggerated. You can play the entire way to endgame absolutely fine - my dual wield / bow medium armor nightblade has been a ton of fun leveling all of the way.

If you're talking about timed trials at the end of the game, then it's utterly unsurprising that some combinations are better than others. Do you truly think that it is reasonable to demand that all builds produce exactly the same damage output, for instance, in something like a trial? This is what I meant by unrealistic expectations. In fact, I'd argue that you might well want to have, say, abilities designed for different contexts - which is pretty much what ESO has now.

What makes ESO good is that you can gear any given character up to make them work. In a normal MMO you can spend years with classes that are pigeonholed into specific roles and which can be either weak or "balanced" / nerfed into weakness. And if there are many hours invested in such a character then "rerolling" is a huge effort. Instead, you might have to to skill up a different armor set or weapon set to do some particular end game event in the worst case.

I think that it's a valid point to demonstrate that something like a timed trial, by its nature, will devolve into favoring the absolute most efficient setups for that particular trial. This is an argument for a variety of trial approaches or for a variety of other things to do at the end of the game, not an argument that the designers didn't succeed because they didn't make all approached exactly the same. I think that they have time to demonstrate that they can do this.

kevlarto_ESO · August 2014

I have played mmo's since before they had graphics, and single player games it feels like forever, I have played all things Elder Scrolls since Daggerfall.

I enjoy ESO, to me they found a good balance of mmo and single player, it is still the young one on the block, and has a lot of growing to do, I am looking forward to seeing it grow and being here while it does, ESO has brought things back to the mmo, I have missed since some of the older games.

soulclaw · August 2014

While I like the game, I have to say that if the OP ever grows up and goes out into the world he or she will have to deal with the fact that not everyone will like what he or she likes.

There are lots of things that I like that many people do not like, but I don't go and whine on forums about it. I also do not feel the need to be a cheerleader.

AoEnwyr · August 2014

OP what a wonderful post! I am a firm believer in constructive feedback but too often what you see on the forums is rage, nastiness and demands. Perhaps this comes back to the communication skills of some people (and levels of maturity) but it has the effect of making the forums seem like a dreary and bitter place to visit at times

As for getting "Flamed Out" you may but don't worry about it, the kinds of people who behave in that way and have nothing constructive to contribute aren't worth worrying yourself about.

All the best to you in your adventures!

seaef · August 2014

Obscure wrote: »

Let's be clear, the true fans here are critical of ESO.

Well, when I see a proper critical response then I'll agree with you. To date, all I see are posts from a bunch of whiners who think the game needs to be tailored exactly to their needs and screw everyone else.

I know of only one other group of humans that act like that...toddlers.

Bherdani · August 2014

Tapio75 wrote: »

Well, i like the game in many ways but it definitely does not feelenough of TES. I also dont remember them saying they are working on an MMO but on Elder Scrolls online which plays and feels much like traditional Elder Scrolls does.

Tapio, there are numerous examples from every TES game that refute the complaints you list here.

Bherdani · August 2014

As a 'true fan' of TES I find the nitpicky condescension of other 'true fans' rather Aldmeri, as are their wordy explanations justifying 'hate.'

Relyk04 · August 2014

@Elloa I can certainly relate to your stance. In fact I also wonder why ppl get so heated about the "differences" in the game.

Perhaps it because they want to love the game so they broadcast their opinion to make it "their" experience which is ok.

Perhaps it is because they have a "toxic" personality and wish for things that have no rhyme or reason.

Perhaps it is because they have experienced "trials and tribulations" when it comes to their experience with the game, while WE have not.

Perhaps it is because many of these game-improving "ideas" are simply subjective.

Perhaps it is all these reasons as well as the reasons denounced in this thread; certainly it is because of all these reasons and more.

This much I "know" is true.

I, like many, applaud your efforts as well as the many others who feed "constructive," unbiased feedback into these forums and into this game.

My 2¢

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · August 2014

I like cats.

AoEnwyr · August 2014

epoling wrote: »

People that say "I only rage and complain about ESO because I care about it so much" reminds me of the guys who say "I only beat my wife because I love her so much". If you really care about something you may criticize it, but you find a decent way to do it.

Brilliant! Some people certainly have a funny way of showing how they care.

Chelos · August 2014

RazielSR wrote: »

And why are you wasting your time saying how good the game is? GO AND PLAY!! If you come here means that you are wasting your precious time by creating this topic and answering to other people wasting their time!

Wrong

I'm currently on a computer and in a place where I cannot play. Believe me, if I could I would rather play than just read about it.

Such a lack of imagination

EinionYrth · August 2014

Chelos wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

And why are you wasting your time saying how good the game is? GO AND PLAY!! If you come here means that you are wasting your precious time by creating this topic and answering to other people wasting their time!

Wrong
I'm currently on a computer and in a place where I cannot play. Believe me, if I could I would rather play than just read about it.

Such a lack of imagination

Indeed: the guys who pay me tolerate my web browsing so long as I get the work done; I suspect they'd be rather less forgiving if I started playing games on their time.

Unmai · August 2014

I find it amazing how opinions can be so varied on this game. We all know there are problems (some serious) that need fixing, no one has claimed any different. But some simply seem to want to hate on the game and ZOS about these and some minor issues also rather than provide constructive criticism that could actually aid in the development of this game. @soulclaw I'm not sure how much more I want to grow up since I'm already in my 30's. I just personally prefer to not hate on things and people as I find they are more receptive went I don't.

People seem to forget how "young" this MMO is compared to the ones they are thinking off when declaring what ESO should be doing. I wasn't playing WOW when it started but I wonder how the fanbase received it back then. FFXIV was a complete mess and the forum was hateville when V1 was released.

As I've said personally I would like ZOS to give weekly progress reports on what is being worked on for new content and for bug fixes. I like to think that they are using these forums to gather issues and get a sense of the general feelings of the fanbase (it's the only source they have) so I would rather give them encouragement to produce a superb MMO rather than try to abuse them.

R1ckyDaMan · August 2014

lordrichter wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

-Combat. There are classes, they are all magick classes. You can not be true warrior at all.

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

For me, this is the single and most disappointing "feature" of ESO.

My expectation is that a future release will introduce a new class with new class skills that are stamina based warrior skills.

As someone who always plays full plate sword and board type characters in elder scrolls games the skill system makes it impossible to change it to my liking

I enjoyed the run in and bash things on the head approach of the elder scrolls games.

But this is an mmo and to appeal to mmo players they needed to add some home comforts at least for them.

DieAlteHexe · August 2014

Unmai wrote: »

...

People seem to forget how "young" this MMO is compared to the ones they are thinking off when declaring what ESO should be doing. I wasn't playing WOW when it started but I wonder how the fanbase received it back then. FFXIV was a complete mess and the forum was hateville when V1 was released.

As I've said personally I would like ZOS to give weekly progress reports on what is being worked on for new content and for bug fixes. I like to think that they are using these forums to gather issues and get a sense of the general feelings of the fanbase (it's the only source they have) so I would rather give them encouragement to produce a superb MMO rather than try to abuse them.

It was ugly when WoW released. Really, really ugly. Lag like you wouldn't believe, you'd go to loot something and be stuck in the looting position. Servers crashing, a real mess. They got it sorted relatively quickly but the yowling was spectacular. And the yowling continued, at least until I left the game over various and sundry things.

I agree with your second quoted paragraph above but, having worked at a dev. house, understand that devs aren't likely to want to be on forums and, in many cases, getting them to do other than coding is not likely to work out too well. Might be worth a meeting between devs and community for the purpose of a weekly update. I think most would appreciate that.

I think the game is very good. It's young, it has issues and time will tell on how those issues get dealt with. I get a feeling this will mature into a great game for folks who enjoy this type of game. What irks me is folk buying and game and then trying to force the game to be something it isn't, and isn't intended to be. I am especially bemused by those who revile questing. They might've been better served to find a different game because this one is solidly based on questing (yay!).