Veteran Rank players at low level Anchors

apostate9 · August 2014

Srugzal wrote: »

apostate9 wrote: »

Oh, and "Towering arrogance" is another great example of hyperbole. You guys really are hilarious.

Just a small point. "Towering arrogance" is a metaphorical description. Hyperbole would be "it was the most outrageous display of arrogance anyone have ever seen, an arrogance of biblical proportions, an arrogance to shock even the gods."

Get it?

Yeah I get it, he just did it. Adding "Biblical" is not required for it to hyperbolic. This whole thread is so absurd.

Some guys is mad that VRs are ganking kills at low level dolmens. VR players here feel they are entitled to hunt achievments, but roundly condemn the kill-ganking as rude and offer to just heal or hang back or something. Fixed. Right?

Wrong, because the Internet.

Some kid lambasts a VR player for being too considerate, because now apparently his refusal to just wipe out the whole mob at each dolmen is rude:

Paraphased: How dare you imply your VR10 toon is more powerful than my level 20??! I don't need your charity! I don't need your healzz...

FFS. He didn't say that, and stop arguing both sides.

Griefing him on the forums for trying to get his dyes in a more lowbie-friendly manner only undermines the argument this SirAndy is supposedly trying to make. Then he tries to play it off like he's the voice of reason and I'm doin' him wrong, when his sole contribution to the thread was to USE HYPERBOLE to sandbag some poor guy for trying to be cool.

In point of fact, my line of questioning about exclusive access to dolmens for low-leveled players was germane to the OP, while nothing Linguist boy said thereafter was. SirAndy's astounding audacity in ignoring the very relevant bits of my post so he could find a way to defend his use of hyperbole with the "I'm the rubber" routine shows a risible and hilariously tenuous grasp of logic and English. He doesn't sound clever. He sounds butthurt.

Hyperbole = / = reductio ad absurdum,

Exactly. Like accusing a polite player of impugning your worth because he opted to heal instead of soloing the dolmen he needed. Cuz he could... so just take "yes" for an answer.

Recap:

1.Vets and Lowbies alike pay the same amount of real $ to access the content. Vets can kill whatever they want, thus it is only courtesy that inclines them not too.
2. That being said, VRs jacking all the kills so lowbies cant do anything is rude.
3. If 2 above is a true statement, hassling vets who restrict their activities to healing is both counter-productive, and rude. I think they call it "trolling".
4. There is no point 4.

Srugzal · August 2014

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

I'm guilty of this one as well. But when I hit VR12 (Cadwell's gold, all quests and dungeons complete) I only had a little over 200 Dwemer constructs for that achievement, so that one is a little off the mark (every other hunter achievement was done or nearly done by the time I hit VR12). Can you imagine grinding out 800 Dwemer at level? I was able to grind it out in a couple hours in low level dungeons. And while I do try to be courteous to low level players, I'm sure some came in behind me to find an empty dungeon.

I like to give the game designers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the effects of certain design decisions, like the balance issues between armor types or the legitimacy of the existence of a de-facto gold standard build (the so-called "sorc in a dress with sticks").

But I'll bet you anything that when these achievements were designed, nobody foresaw top ranked players farming low-level dungeons like this. Who would have thought that people would go out for this sort of thing?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing. I just can't imagine that this was anticipated. And that gets me thinking... what else was not anticipated?

And they said the game didn't have emergent gameplay! Maybe the meta-game of achievements... is the real game...?

OrangeTheCat · August 2014

I wonder if down scaling to the zone's level, like what GW2 does, would help matters. I doubt there is anything ZOS can do to get people to stop being jerks or to self-reflect on how what they are doing might not be appreciated.

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · August 2014

Tbh most people are jerks ingame, if you cant beat em join em i say, only a game

most players would sell their ganny for a motif x)

Ojustaboo · August 2014

I suppose it comes down to time. A vet player just wanting to get the achievement out the way, playing for an hour or so a night, probably wants to do them as quick as possible.

Holding back so the on level player gets a hit sounds great in principle. But most people arent logging on for a couple of hrs a night to sit back and watch/help a stranger (who in many many cases wouldn't ever return the favour to other players) at the expense of them getting their achievement done.

The game is not a charity.

SirAndy · August 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

The game is not a charity.

Charity would be if you were giving lower level players something.

This whole thread is about VR players taking something away from lower level players.

Sorry, but charity has nothing to do with this ...
;-)

OrangeTheCat · August 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to time. A vet player just wanting to get the achievement out the way, playing for an hour or so a night, probably wants to do them as quick as possible.

Holding back so the on level player gets a hit sounds great in principle. But most people arent logging on for a couple of hrs a night to sit back and watch/help a stranger (who in many many cases wouldn't ever return the favour to other players) at the expense of them getting their achievement done.

The game is not a charity.

Most people would return the favor, if that was the social norm. But it's not. It's up to us to play the game like we wish others would. At first, some people would take advantage of your generosity. But after a while, most people would act in a generous manner. It's totally up to us.

Ojustaboo · August 2014

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to time. A vet player just wanting to get the achievement out the way, playing for an hour or so a night, probably wants to do them as quick as possible.

Holding back so the on level player gets a hit sounds great in principle. But most people arent logging on for a couple of hrs a night to sit back and watch/help a stranger (who in many many cases wouldn't ever return the favour to other players) at the expense of them getting their achievement done.

The game is not a charity.

Most people would return the favor, if that was the social norm. But it's not. It's up to us to play the game like we wish others would. At first, some people would take advantage of your generosity. But after a while, most people would act in a generous manner. It's totally up to us.

Your experience of humanity is vastly different to mine.

Sure there are kind generous folk around, but sadly there are just as many if not far more that will take all they can and give zero back, and laugh at people who think they can be changed.

And when it comes to mmos, its far far far worse.

Ojustaboo · August 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

The game is not a charity.

Charity would be if you were giving lower level players something.

This whole thread is about VR players taking something away from lower level players.

Sorry, but charity has nothing to do with this ...
;-)

If I'm holding back from running in and blasting everything as quick as possible to let lower levels have their fun, then yes I am giving them something, my time

apostate9 · August 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

The game is not a charity.

Charity would be if you were giving lower level players something.

This whole thread is about VR players taking something away from lower level players.

;-)

No it isn't. Dolmens aren't your property to take. This misapprehension on your part is leading to your obvious emotional distress. Your achievement is not more important than his.

And when VRs offer to just heal, MorHawk slams them for being condescending, so this whole thread is really providing very few incentives for the "offending" vets to change their ways.

apostate9 · August 2014

MorHawk wrote: »

apostate9 wrote: »

The whole thread is condescending, his remarks were as germane as anyone else's. Some people do have difficult with the dolmens, and yes the vets have as much right to them as you do, we paid for them too.

So which is it? Are low-levelled players entitled to exclusive access to certain dolmens? Because if you think so, that is pretty snotty. We all pay to access the content, dolmens are first-come first served, dot. If you don't own the dolmens in your zone, then you really are being done a favor when he throws down heals, so don't act like it isn't classy play that benefits you...because it is.

The point is that (and you really should have got this from the OP) so many VR12s are nuking the Anchors so fast that the folks who are level-appropriate never get a look in. You're strawmanning pretty hard if you think that requesting that over-levelled players heal or dial back their DPS somehow means 'exclusive access'.

Dude you are the master of inb4 with the logical fallacies you don't understand. Not only did YOU, (not I) set up a strawman with the whole healing thing, but YOU (and not I), have been using hyperbole. It is clear to anyone who didn't look up those words on Google 15 minutes ago for the first time like you did.

My post is completely topical, and addresses the OPs desire to not have VRs kill all the monsters at "his" dolmen, which is reasonable from his point of view, I freely admit. Unfortunately, this is a MMORG and the dolmens aren't his. Other points of view therefore come into play.

So what he is asking for is a courtesy. Fine. As long as we are all on the same page cuz that's what it is. A courtesy. I play this game for my amusement typically, not yours, and not his.

Then you and your bad Internet lexicon come along and pile on to the fist VR who tries to be cool about it and you seem to think *I* am the one who created the strawman when *nobody* said you NEED a VR healer.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content]

MorHawk · August 2014

apostate9 wrote: »

Some guys is mad that VRs are ganking kills at low level dolmens. VR players here feel they are entitled to hunt achievments, but roundly condemn the kill-ganking as rude and offer to just heal or hang back or something. Fixed. Right?
Wrong, because the Internet.
Some kid lambasts a VR player for being too considerate, because now apparently his refusal to just wipe out the whole mob at each dolmen is rude.

So because some players are ungrateful, that spares us from the responsibility of consideration?

Your logic. it hurts.

apostate9 wrote: »

Hyperbole = / = reductio ad absurdum

Exactly. Like accusing a polite player of impugning your worth because he opted to heal instead of soloing the dolmen he needed. Cuz he could... so just take "yes" for an answer.

I'm...not sure what diversionary tactic you're even trying here. Sounds like you're repeating your first point though, so see above.

apostate9 wrote: »

Recap:
1.Vets and Lowbies alike pay the same amount of real $ to access the content. Vets can kill whatever they want, thus it is only courtesy that inclines them not too.
2. That being said, VRs jacking all the kills so lowbies cant do anything is rude.
3. If 2 above is a true statement, hassling vets who restrict their activities to healing is both counter-productive, and rude. I think they call it "trolling".

Just about with you until 3. Who the heck is hassling vets that are just healing? Those ingrates you mentioned earlier? This is really the entire crux of your argument?

Ojustaboo wrote: »

If I'm holding back from running in and blasting everything as quick as possible to let lower levels have their fun, then yes I am giving them something, my time

Oh, how generous of you. Good grief, why is the concept of a synergistic society so foreign to some people?

SirAndy · August 2014

apostate9 wrote: »

Dolmens aren't your property to take. This misapprehension on your part is leading to your obvious emotional distress. Your achievement is not more important than his.

Nice try, but you are mistaken about both, my apprehensions and my emotions.

It's quite simple really, so bear with me ...

As a VR player you have a *choice*:

- Disregard low level players and run a dolmen over and over to get your achievement while killing everything so fast that you're locking out low level players from getting their achievements.
- Let low level players partake in the dolmen so they get their achievements and can move on.

In contrast, low level players have *no* choice in the matter!

Your actions force *them* to spent their time waiting or go somewhere else completely until you're done.
;-)

Spottswoode · August 2014

I have been to low level anchors for achievements and daedra farming, but I tend to play healer so the lesser guys can have their fill.
Methinks this could be easily fixed by using public grouping around dolmens so everyone can share the experience and kills counter in the same manner as Rift.

GnatB · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Getting a grindy achievement in an MMO is like paying off a big loan. You feel relieved when it's done, perhaps even proud. You might value what having paid off that loan says about you as a person, but you definitely don't look back at the time spent paying off that loan as "fun."

Which is why any sane person doesn't bother. Unlike a loan, they aren't going to foreclose on you or send the collection agencies after you.

Maverick827 · August 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

You don't get anything for activating the first four pins. There are no enemies left for the one at the end, so you don't really have an advantage in getting that one. I'm not sure what you think you were accomplishing.

There is an achievement for releasing x number of pins ...
;-)

Only the last pin. Not the first four.

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

You don't get anything for activating the first four pins. There are no enemies left for the one at the end, so you don't really have an advantage in getting that one. I'm not sure what you think you were accomplishing.

There is an achievement for releasing x number of pins ...
;-)

Only the last pin. Not the first four.

its every pin you u newb iv done it the achiement, and i was checking as i was going along....in the ach you can track how many you have done.

[SNIP]

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments] and [ our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

UrQuan · August 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

You don't get anything for activating the first four pins. There are no enemies left for the one at the end, so you don't really have an advantage in getting that one. I'm not sure what you think you were accomplishing.

There is an achievement for releasing x number of pins ...
;-)

Only the last pin. Not the first four.

Really? So how did I just get credit for 3 more after doing a single dolmen?

This is a simple test that anyone can do (like I just did).

Before:

After:

So no, you don't only get credit for the final pinion. You get credit for each and every one.

Ojustaboo · August 2014

MorHawk wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

If I'm holding back from running in and blasting everything as quick as possible to let lower levels have their fun, then yes I am giving them something, my time

Oh, how generous of you. Good grief, why is the concept of a synergistic society so foreign to some people?

So you have your view on how we should behave and any other view is wrong?

Someone needing about 300 dolmens, if everytime they go to one they sit back and let the on level players take their time, it will take them forever.

Cogo · August 2014

Since there are dolmens at all levels, why not just stop giving credit for mob kills if they are more then 5 levels below you, like loot drops?

Maverick827 · August 2014

UrQuan wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

You don't get anything for activating the first four pins. There are no enemies left for the one at the end, so you don't really have an advantage in getting that one. I'm not sure what you think you were accomplishing.

There is an achievement for releasing x number of pins ...
;-)

Only the last pin. Not the first four.

Really? So how did I just get credit for 3 more after doing a single dolmen?

This is a simple test that anyone can do (like I just did).

Yeah, the test is simple, which is why the results I got months ago when I tested it were pretty clear. They must have changed it since then. I solo'd dozens of anchors when farming for generals and I certainly didn't have the achievement after only 20 of them.

Arsenic_Touch · August 2014

The complaints are misdirected. The current mechanics are set up so veteran players are forced into doing this if they want to complete the achievement, you'll never complete it just playing the game through each zone or going to a higher level zone to farm it. So if you want to complain about something, you can point your fingers at ZoS, not the veteran players.

Want to complete the dolmen? come back when you're a higher level. There is virtually no benefit from doing the dolmen for that level when you first come upon it, so to throw a hissy fit over veteran players when you'll be doing the same thing they just did if you ever want to complete said achievement is just pretty much pointless.

It's pretty much a case of "Deal with it" until ZoS decides to scale the events properly or improve the ability to obtain the achievement, you'll just have to pucker up and deal.

Lord_Hev · August 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

or going to a higher level zone to farm it.

Oh really? Then how did I achieve it then?

I only farmed them for a few weeks too. "Farming" meaning not even dedicated. I just never miss an anchor if I can help it. I spent one weekend doing vigorous rotations. Just one weekend.

I got it at VR 5.

Cogo · August 2014

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

The complaints are misdirected. The current mechanics are set up so veteran players are forced into doing this if they want to complete the achievement, you'll never complete it just playing the game through each zone or going to a higher level zone to farm it. So if you want to complain about something, you can point your fingers at ZoS, not the veteran players.

Want to complete the dolmen? come back when you're a higher level. There is virtually no benefit from doing the dolmen for that level when you first come upon it, so to throw a hissy fit over veteran players when you'll be doing the same thing they just did if you ever want to complete said achievement is just pretty much pointless.

It's pretty much a case of "Deal with it" until ZoS decides to scale the events properly or improve the ability to obtain the achievement, you'll just have to pucker up and deal.

Forced? I managed quite nice at my current level thank you.

And whats wrong with all the dolmens in the vet areas? To hard? ;-)

Aziz006 · August 2014

Achievement leaderboards!

Magdalina · August 2014

I feel special now:D I farmed all my (remaining after doing all the anchors at least once) generals in Reaper's March, vet 10 zone for me. Those repair bills for soloing anchors were fun, but killing lvl 20 daedra just didn't seem right:)

I found out about the general spawn pattern when I had just a few generals left but I was stubborn enough to finish them in Reaper's.

Delgent · August 2014

It's these kind of design decisions that have me contemplating leaving ESO for good. I played for a couple of hours this morning on my level 10 and had a VR1 killing everything in sight in the dungeon I was trying to do. The excitement of finding a rare mob quickly wanes when the VR runs up and kills it before I can target and get an instacast off.

Today was the first day I logged in since last week because of the VRs at anchors frustration. I was trying to do the low level AD anchors last week, and was lucky to get a hit here or there before mobs were vaporized by the VRs. I logged off then, and hadn't had the desire to log in until today because of it.

In both instances I asked for a little restraint from the VR, both times I received rude replies. I guess their time IS more valuable then mine.

It wasn't fun, it was frustrating and pretty much a waste of my time. The 10 is my highest level character, because I recently switched from DA to AD. If this is what I have to look forward to for anther 40 levels, then I don't think it's worth paying for.

I know this is basically my problem and how I view/react to it. Maybe I'm getting too old for this

Just some perspective from a player who is frustrated about the issue. I won't whine and complain, I'll just unsub and maybe go back to my old world...something I never though I'd do once I started playing ESO.

Love ESO, but I don't know that it's worth the bother having to compete with VR players when trying to get things done as a low level.

Srugzal · August 2014

UrQuan wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

You might value what having paid off that loan says about you as a person, but you definitely don't look back at the time spent paying off that loan as "fun."

To my mind, spending time in an MMO doing things you don't enjoy is just, well, lunacy. Especially if you pay for the privilege.

Not if it gives you a sense of accomplishment, and if that sense of accomplishment is worth more to you than the time you've spent doing things that you don't enjoy.

Can't agree with that, not if the process isn't meaningful. If it isn't, for me the achievement is also meaningless. Different strokes.

I wasn't talking about whether it's meaningful for you. You said that it's lunacy. I pointed out that for some people the sense of accomplishment is worth it, and therefore it's not lunacy for them. If you can't agree with that, then you lack the ability to understand that different things are important to different people.

So you feel that it's necessary to attack me to make your point? Tsk tsk.

Unlike you, I'm not pronouncing universal truth here, just articulating my own opinion, and acknowledging that others have different views. You should try to do the same.

Um, what? How is anything there an attack? My entire point is that different people have different views, so it's unfair for you to say that it's lunacy for them to do something they don't enjoy, when it's possible that for them the payoff makes it worth it. You specifically said you can't agree with that. You're the one who won't acknowledge that other people have different views. Either you agree that it's not lunacy for those people (and you've said you don't agree with that), or you're saying that others can't have different views from you (which means that you lack the ability to understand that different things are important to different people). End of story, with absolutely zero attacks on anyone.

Ummm, sure mate. Whatever you say. <backs slowly away>

MorHawk · August 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

So you have your view on how we should behave and any other view is wrong?

Welll...yes. Yes I do. Moral subjectivity's a popular argument these days, but it can only get you so far. I'm fairly certain that there are those who argue that murder's okay, but I have absolutely no qualms about society forcing its 'views' on those people.

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Someone needing about 300 dolmens, if everytime they go to one they sit back and let the on level players take their time, it will take them forever.

Ambiguity's fun, isn't it? No-one can directly contradict you that way.

You ever heard of the Golden Rule? The idea here being that, if someone had acted that way while you were levelling, you would have been completely shut out from that content. Thus, as much of a horrible inconvenience as it is for you to take an extra couple of minutes per dolmen, to act entirely in your own self-interest is unfair to others. Sure, you can argue this all you want, but in this case, I have absolutely no problem saying you're wrong. Morality is often less subjective than you might think.

MorHawk · August 2014

Delgent wrote: »

I know this is basically my problem and how I view/react to it. Maybe I'm getting too old for this Just some perspective from a player who is frustrated about the issue. I won't whine and complain, I'll just unsub and maybe go back to my old world...something I never though I'd do once I started playing ESO.

Love ESO, but I don't know that it's worth the bother having to compete with VR players when trying to get things done as a low level.

For what it's worth, this will all calm down in a month or so once all the content locusts eat through it. See if there's anything else you can do right now, take a month off if you need to, but I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone driven off from a game they enjoy just because of idiot kids who are incapable of seeing anything outside their tiny little self-interest.