The Arena only requires 4 players and "requires" may be stretching it for Normal mode. That will definitely make it easier for people to access the content.

That being said, most groups, especially PUGs, will never survive more than the first few waves in Hardcore mode. Finishing it will be impossible.

ZOS is in a bind here. It can make the content accessible and fun for all, thus disappointing the elitists. Or ZOS can make the content exceptional challenging and unfun for most, thus pleasing only the elitists and alienating everyone else.

At the moment, it seems like ZOS has decided to please the elitists with this content.

If they would just remove the stupid leaderboards and give some kind of meaningful progression for end-game content, everyone could be that much closer to enjoying it.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I find this silly.

There are groups and groups , the "elitists" are not forced to take anyone with them to run content , maybe they indeed only want people with certain builds that are know for delivering the best result , so what?

That is their right since that is their group , people who dont fit in what they want can go and form their groups and accept anyone into them they want also.

A player doesnt have a right to tell other how to play really , BUT a player also doesnt have the right to force their way into groups that dont want them.

So what? It shows how broken this game is when all the builds are all dress/staff.

I'd agree if this was some other MMO where each class had several viable PVE builds so everyone had options but it's not and it doesn't and it's sad that ZOS doesn't make this priority #1.

kieso wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I find this silly.

There are groups and groups , the "elitists" are not forced to take anyone with them to run content , maybe they indeed only want people with certain builds that are know for delivering the best result , so what?

That is their right since that is their group , people who dont fit in what they want can go and form their groups and accept anyone into them they want also.

A player doesnt have a right to tell other how to play really , BUT a player also doesnt have the right to force their way into groups that dont want them.

So what? It shows how broken this game is when all the builds are all dress/staff.

I'd agree if this was some other MMO where each class had several viable PVE builds so everyone had options but it's not and it doesn't and it's sad that ZOS doesn't make this priority #1.

That wouldnt matter at all.

There will always be a best of all builds , even if zen eventually closes the gap in gear , making stamina close to magicka , there will still be best and worse skills to use and so on.

Players are not blind , the moment you use one skill out of the line , they will notice and you will get the shaft forcing them to start again with a new players.

Elitists are in most game , there is always those that seek the 110%.

Again , just dont play in their groups and they really cant tell you what to do. If one of them ends up in your group , tell him/her that is not how you run things in that group.

Where there is group content, there is elitism.

Good thing is that you only need 3 other people so easy to find normal people who have no problems playing with us, puny mortals, instead of the almighty, superior elitist jerks awesome people.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I find this silly.

There are groups and groups , the "elitists" are not forced to take anyone with them to run content , maybe they indeed only want people with certain builds that are know for delivering the best result , so what?

That is their right since that is their group , people who dont fit in what they want can go and form their groups and accept anyone into them they want also.

A player doesnt have a right to tell other how to play really , BUT a player also doesnt have the right to force their way into groups that dont want them.

I wish more people understood this. Additionally, there are heaps of more easily completed dungeons and two technically "introductory" trials (as compared to dragonstar arena vet mode and the new serpent trial) for people who want a more casual experience to enjoy. The amount of moderately difficult or hard content in this game is sorely lacking.

Group or don't group with the more stringent parties, if you don't like someone else's rules for their group, go make your own. But take your own responsibility as to whether or not you can complete the content. Complaining about "elitists" isn't going to do anything, nor should you care about it. Group with like-minded people and enjoy, others will group with who they want to and everyone wins .

No matter what they change, buff, or nerf groups for endgame content will have entrance requirements. Ultimately, people are more interested in finishing the content in a timely manner than humoring a guy that wants to run an ineffective build.

Aeratus wrote: »

Haven't played on PTS, but I definitely do not expect there to be the same amount of elitism, due to the fact that it's only 4 players.

Trials have given way to elitism because they require 12 people. With only 4 people, you can play solely with your friends and not have to worry about having the requirements to make it into some elitist trial run.

This is your answer. With a dying, low player base finding PU-12man-Groups is always going to be hard. It shouldn't be so bad for 4.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Csub wrote: »

Where there is group content, there is elitism.

Good thing is that you only need 3 other people so easy to find normal people who have no problems playing with us, puny mortals, instead of the almighty, superior elitist jerks awesome people.

Where there is difficult or not-so-easily-puggable content, there are people who want to make sure they can complete it with a party of similar skill rather than spending heaps of extra time and potentially failing where they didn't have to. You don't see the people you're calling "elitists" complaining. They just form their own groups.

I saw that in guild chat a lot, and I do understand if the content is hard... but when people are elitist in the vet dungeons where 3/4 people are already way overgeared and they don't even go for a speedrun or hard mode... or when they already faceroll trials, that's when I don't understand elitism.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I find this silly.

There are groups and groups , the "elitists" are not forced to take anyone with them to run content , maybe they indeed only want people with certain builds that are know for delivering the best result , so what?

That is their right since that is their group , people who dont fit in what they want can go and form their groups and accept anyone into them they want also.

A player doesnt have a right to tell other how to play really , BUT a player also doesnt have the right to force their way into groups that dont want them.

So what? It shows how broken this game is when all the builds are all dress/staff.

I'd agree if this was some other MMO where each class had several viable PVE builds so everyone had options but it's not and it doesn't and it's sad that ZOS doesn't make this priority #1.

That wouldnt matter at all.

There will always be a best of all builds , even if zen eventually closes the gap in gear , making stamina close to magicka , there will still be best and worse skills to use and so on.

Players are not blind , the moment you use one skill out of the line , they will notice and you will get the shaft forcing them to start again with a new players.

Elitists are in most game , there is always those that seek the 110%.

Again , just dont play in their groups and they really cant tell you what to do. If one of them ends up in your group , tell him/her that is not how you run things in that group.

But it does matter; it gives people more options on those best builds. I've played with "elitists" and been one and it works fine for many games because you have options and classes and each one gives a unique style of play even if there's only one two best builds for one class but in this game it's pretty ridiculous and really pigeon holed more so then any other MMO I've played.

Though it's not the elitism that bugs me but the fact that the content they keep churning out further content that reinforces it in a time when everything is so pathetically unbalanced.

kieso wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I find this silly.

There are groups and groups , the "elitists" are not forced to take anyone with them to run content , maybe they indeed only want people with certain builds that are know for delivering the best result , so what?

That is their right since that is their group , people who dont fit in what they want can go and form their groups and accept anyone into them they want also.

A player doesnt have a right to tell other how to play really , BUT a player also doesnt have the right to force their way into groups that dont want them.

So what? It shows how broken this game is when all the builds are all dress/staff.

I'd agree if this was some other MMO where each class had several viable PVE builds so everyone had options but it's not and it doesn't and it's sad that ZOS doesn't make this priority #1.

That wouldnt matter at all.

There will always be a best of all builds , even if zen eventually closes the gap in gear , making stamina close to magicka , there will still be best and worse skills to use and so on.

Players are not blind , the moment you use one skill out of the line , they will notice and you will get the shaft forcing them to start again with a new players.

Elitists are in most game , there is always those that seek the 110%.

Again , just dont play in their groups and they really cant tell you what to do. If one of them ends up in your group , tell him/her that is not how you run things in that group.

But it does matter; it gives people more options on those best builds. I've played with "elitists" and been one and it works fine for many games because you have options and classes and each one gives a unique style of play even if there's only one two best builds for one class but in this game it's pretty ridiculous and really pigeon holed more so then any other MMO I've played.

Though it's not the elitism that bugs me but the fact that the content they keep churning out further content that reinforces it in a time when everything is so pathetically unbalanced.

And you dont solve anything , you are not complaining about elitists , you are complaning about game unbalance and how zen needs to fix it.

NOT the same.

You can instead of having 1 best build , have 10. The elitists will want you into one of those 10 , that simple , that is how they enjoy to run the game. That solves variety , not elitism , because elitism is a way to play the game , you cant solve it without tossing the player out of it. There will always be unbalance , that is just how it works , with spellcraft and the new guild lines it will just become "worse" probably.

People will also form groups that dont ask for that , which is fine also.

The key for a group is that people agree on playing together, they can play in anyway they prefer in that group of theirs , it might not be like the other group , but so what? If you dont like that one join another , form another.

Oh the poor, put upon elitist groups and their problems. The 99%ers deeply sympathize with the 1%ers. We feel your pain. We fully support you right solicit people to join your guilds under the guise of needing players for Trials and Dungeons but then never inviting\including them for said content. We also support your right to kick out players from your groups, such as when a DK with 100% availability is dropped from the Trials group in favor of a NB with 25% availability. I know people that encountered those situations and it certainly gives a certain impression of those groups. These types of incidents make me wonder if the game's community is doing it more harm than the tone deaf content managers and devs who continue to ignore the glaring problems in this game.

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

The solution to the elitist has always been simple. Find a decent guild. By this I mean spend sometime, group with people you get to know as often as possible etc as you look for a decent guild. Put some effort in and any decent guild will work with all guild members. Its a bit harder then it seems but totally worth it

Easier said than done considering the flawed guild system Zenimax has dumped on us

Another interesting 'discussion' about balance.

Let me first start by saying I have never completed a trial. I fell in with a guild that does (and completes) trials on a regular basis, but since I haven't done the stick and dress \ cross dressing build, I have been one of the weak links in my runs.

The guild I'm part of makes it clear when they're doing the run for speed, and when they're organizing a run for practice. On practice runs, they're not concerned about speed or completion, although they would like to complete it. They take inexperienced and sub-optimal builds to give everyone a chance, in the hopes that they will build players up to the challenge. That being said, when they are forced to start looking for PUGs, it's for the speed runs, because there aren't enough experienced guild players online and they just need 1 or 2 more to compete their roster.

I don't consider that elitist, there's simply a bar for entry that my toon doesn't quite meet.

I could fairly easily respec my toon to cover the skills gap. By the time you hit VR12, you should be swimming in skill points and easily able to create a character that can fill multiple roles. My primary toon has a hard time doing that because I maxed out every crafting profession, but the toon I'm currently levelling won't have that issue.

So what's the point of my post? We all know that there are balance issues in the game. It's not the fault of the people who are organizing trial runs. We all know that because of these balance issues, the 'play as you want' promise is a bit on the empty side. As such, for certain aspects of the game you have to 'play for what the group needs' instead of 'playing the one build that floats your boat.'

At VR12 with 6 professions maxed out, I still have enough skill points to get everything I want from 2 armor lines, 3 weapons lines, and all three of my class skill lines. If I didn't have those professions maxed out, I could easily have enough variety in my build where I could PvP or Quest like a warrior, and then put on the silly dress for trials. My next toon will be a strong melee build that cross dresses for friday night trial runs.

So I really have to wonder, how much of the elitism is really elitism as opposed to players that are simply upset about the realities of the game mechanics?

firstdecan wrote: »

Another interesting 'discussion' about balance.

Let me first start by saying I have never completed a trial. I fell in with a guild that does (and completes) trials on a regular basis, but since I haven't done the stick and dress \ cross dressing build, I have been one of the weak links in my runs.

The guild I'm part of makes it clear when they're doing the run for speed, and when they're organizing a run for practice. On practice runs, they're not concerned about speed or completion, although they would like to complete it. They take inexperienced and sub-optimal builds to give everyone a chance, in the hopes that they will build players up to the challenge. That being said, when they are forced to start looking for PUGs, it's for the speed runs, because there aren't enough experienced guild players online and they just need 1 or 2 more to compete their roster.

I don't consider that elitist, there's simply a bar for entry that my toon doesn't quite meet.

I could fairly easily respec my toon to cover the skills gap. By the time you hit VR12, you should be swimming in skill points and easily able to create a character that can fill multiple roles. My primary toon has a hard time doing that because I maxed out every crafting profession, but the toon I'm currently levelling won't have that issue.

So what's the point of my post? We all know that there are balance issues in the game. It's not the fault of the people who are organizing trial runs. We all know that because of these balance issues, the 'play as you want' promise is a bit on the empty side. As such, for certain aspects of the game you have to 'play for what the group needs' instead of 'playing the one build that floats your boat.'

At VR12 with 6 professions maxed out, I still have enough skill points to get everything I want from 2 armor lines, 3 weapons lines, and all three of my class skill lines. If I didn't have those professions maxed out, I could easily have enough variety in my build where I could PvP or Quest like a warrior, and then put on the silly dress for trials. My next toon will be a strong melee build that cross dresses for friday night trial runs.

So I really have to wonder, how much of the elitism is really elitism as opposed to players that are simply upset about the realities of the game mechanics?

This guys post should be copied onto every other post that complains about elitism in game. Better yet sticky it up top so everyone can read it before complaining.

Then again it makes perfect sense with its logical explanation of most cases of 'elitism' so nobody will probably pay attention to it.