Expanded Concept: Possibilities for ESO Lich

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · July 2014

Now, before you bash me for making something entirely out of the blue, this was actually one of the more requested Skill Trees for a future version of ESO. For this expanded concept, I will be drawing ideas from navystylz_ESO's Lich Concept, as well as from inspiration from the Skyrim Story Mod Undeath and from WoW: Wrath of the Lich King with the Death Knight.
To begin, my version of the Lich draws from the idea of the Soul-Shriven, and the side effects of not having a soul. This form happens if you completely deny your right for a real soul, and have to feast on the souls of others to survive. This could show physically on the body, but I won't touch on that just yet. For now, let's focus on traits:

First off, the Lich is an alternate, undead state much like the Dragon Priest from Skyrim. Hence, they are highly magic based. They gain bonuses to Destruction and Restoration Staffs, like increased magicka regeneration (about 25%) and overall increased damage (about 5%). They also benefit from light armor, increasing the magnitude of all cloth appliances by 25%, and armor by 10%. That is a significant improvement, but only in full light armor. Any other armor types don't get this bonus, so a Lich would have full Cloth armor, ideally.
The downside is that, like all undead, they take increased fire damage (about the same as a Vampire, which is 50%), but they have a much higher poison and disease resistance (the latter being 100%), and have very high frost resistance (upwards of 50%). Another plus, they don't carry the Day/Night additions Vampires do.

Now that the gameplay traits are covered, let's cover the cosmetic ones:

I would have to give it to navystylz_ESO for this one, his cosmetic concept was really interesting. He created a cosmetic stage system, similar to the Vampire, except it does nothing for gameplay.
To change that, I will follow navystylz_ESO's concept, but add my own twists to them. So, here we go:

Stage One: This is the first stage. Nothing is out of the ordinary. No one can tell you are an Undead Lich. This is the default stage, showing high resemblance to the normal player model. In fact, that's all it really is, the normal model. The stages change depending on when Lich attributes are in effect. For example, taking fire damage puts more points towards the next stage than taking frost damage, and using Lich abilities will push more points for the next stage than the passives taking effect. Dying instantly triggers the next stage, no matter your progress. Stage One is the one stage where the advantages and disadvantages are at their lowest (The standard).
Stage Two: Your mortal form is slowly shedding. You look a lot more like a soul-shriven than before, your skin looking more pale, and people who look at you straight in the eye swear that you are ill. Luckily, your not. Stage Two is the first stage towards your true form, a truly undead creature. Your magicka based powers are increased slightly, now, as your mortal shell is slowly fading, releasing magic trapped within. All attributes associated with the Lich are increased by +5% from Stage One. This means your magicka regen is increased by a total of 30% and the overall spell damage is increased to 10%.
Stage Three: Your mortal form is falling apart. your skin is slowly peeling off, revealing the bone underneath. Your eyes glow a brilliant blue, and the skin on your head is taking the shape of a skull. You look paler than before, your skin turning light grey and the skin on your chest is loosing definition. People should stay away. To them, you might have the Knahaten Flu. Now, this is getting gross. You resemble more of a cross of a Draugr and a Soul Shriven in this form than previously. More so, your power has increased significantly, your Lich attributes increasing by +10% compared to Stage One. That's very significant, meaning you have 35% increased magicka regen and 15% increased overall spell damage. NOTE: The amount of points needed to move to the next stage grow exponentially. The time points needed to advance a stage increase by a magnitude of x3, meaning the points needed to advance to stage three are 3 times more than to advance to stage two, and so forth.
Stage Four: Nothing remains of your humanity. You are a full Lich now, a creature beyond death. People should be worried: you are death incarnate. What remains of your mortal form is hanging on your rib cage, the flesh rotting on your bones. Your eyes seethe with blue fire, and your skull is exposed. This is your true form, a rotting visage of who you once were. Your power has capped, now freely flowing throughout your undead form. Your Lich attributes have reached a staggering +20% increase from stage one. This means your magicka regen has hit a staggering 45% increase, and your overall spell damage capping at a 25% increase. This is your ultimate form, and nothing is to get in your way!

Maintaining Lich Stages
Maintaining the stages of the Lich revolve around the leeching of souls from others. To do this absorb the souls of your victims by pressing X, and you store the souls for later use (except under certain circumstances). Once enough souls are captured you can enter a meditative state where you regenerate your body back to mortal form. The time for the regeneration depends on what stage you are in when you enter. To return to Stage Three from Stage Four, it takes approximately 3 minutes, Stage Three to Stage Two takes 2 minutes, and Stage Two to Stage One only takes 30 seconds. You are probably asking, "Why would I want to revert stages?" Well, first, it allows you to receive more healing outside your abilities, making it so the healer in a group can heal you more easily. It also increases the effectiveness of potions after reverting back to stage one. Generally, as you progress the stages, the ability to heal yourself without Lich abilites drops, making you easier to kill. Your regeneration remains the same (and could possibly be increased), but the healing staff becomes less effective on you at advanced stages. It becomes even more of a hindrance when magicka and stamina potions start failing at stage four (Pirates of the Caribbean comes to mind). Food and Drinks also fail you at stage four, although the numbers at stage three were very small to begin with.

I actually had to nerf the numbers to make the Lich more balanced, but it is still powerful. Now that the base numbers are set, it's time to look at abilites:

The abilities of the Lich revolve around the undead form, and are mostly magic based. They also revolve around your ability to collect souls and the ability to heal your immortal form. So, here's a starter:

Soul Drain: This is the basic leech attack. It applies a drain life effect on the target, doing a medium amount of damage over 6 seconds and healing you in the process. It also slowly drains the soul of the victim, eventually completely consuming it when it is killed from the effect. If the Lich kills the victim who hasen't been killed by Soul Drain, but it was applied, it provides less points towards the revert, but the overall soul quality isn't sacrificed, because you were draining the victim in the first place (unless another Lich was draining the target as well). This effect also can be switched to fill Soul Gems, so it is another interesting way to fill Soul Gems besides the Soul Magic Skill Tree. One morph for Soul Drain could apply disorientation for 2 seconds upon cast, and another can increase the duration by 4 seconds. This ability has a low magicka cost.
Raise Dead: An important part of the Lich according to the Theorycrafters, Raise Dead does exactly what it says: it raises the dead. I view this as a possible summon that functions much like the current sorcerer summons. It summons a permanent skeleton that serves you until it dies, then you can summon another. Morphs could include changing the skeleton into a sword-and-shield type, or an Archer type. This is an expensive spell.
Grasp of Coldharbour: An AoE immobilize effect, Grasp of Coldharbour summons tendrils from the cold depths of Oblivion, immobilizing opponents for a ten second duration. The CC can be broken, and the target is immune to the effect for 12 seconds after the duration completes. A typical AoE stun that doesn't do any damage. One morph could apply a tiny damage effect, while another could increase the healing of allies within the area. This is a moderate-cost spell with a 7 meter radius.
Soul Rift: This is a rather interesting spell inspired by the Vampire discussion I started awhile ago. Using the concept behind Vampiric Dodge, Soul Rift teleports you a short distance (farther than a typical roll), making you immune to damage for the one second duration. Just like Vampiric Dodge, it can be used in all directions, rather than just forward. The effect would make you dissipate into a cloud of smoke, and reassemble a short distance away. One morph could increase the distance traveled, while another could increase the damage immunity's duration after the ability. This would be a low cost spell.
Soul Shift: Not to be confused with Soul Rift, Soul Shift is a damage shield, negating the fire weakness for the duration. This means you will have the same fire resistance as a normal player, along with the damage shield, which negates damage equal to 30% of your health for 20 seconds. One morph could apply a regeneration factor while the shield holds, and another could cause damage to nearby enemies.

That is a full bar of abilities right there, but there are two ultimates to cover:

Soul Tear: This ultimate does a massive amount of damage to a single target over 3 seconds, tearing the soul from the victim (immobilizing him). When the effect completes, the target gains a 40% debuff to all stats permanently. Or, until it dies. If the target is a player, the debuff is removed upon death. This is a devastating ability, but also warrants a high ultimate cost. Also, this is to a single target, so groups of enemies are generally unaffected. One morph could spike the debuff and cause AoE damage upon completion, while another could fully heal the user upon completion, even from the brink of death.
Soul Pit: Yet another devastating ability, this ability targets a whole group of enemies, dealing massive damage and immobilizing enemies in the large radius. Unlike Soul Tear, this ability doesn't apply a debuff, and the damage is spread among all enemies in the radius. This means that if there are a lot of enemies in the radius, the damage isn't as high. However, it's still frightening amounts. One morph could increase the radius and apply a healing debuff to the affected enemies, while another could increase the radius and give out healing to all allies in the radius. This ability warrants a high ultimate cost. NOTE: This effect not only does frightening amounts of damage, but it also is scary to see. The entire area is desecrated, looking like the deadland cause by the Breton in the ESO Trailer 2. And if you are in that area, you're likely toast.

As you can see from the list of abilities, the Lich is a devastating caster, but is rather frail in melee, so refrain from wielding swords or other weapons other than a bow or a staff.
Now for passives:

The passives for the Lich revolve around the your ability to maintain your immortal form, and for the weaving of souls. So, let's get started:

Corpse Aura: This two-stage passive expands your overall magicka and stamina pools by a significant percentage. Nothing special.
Soul Shot: This is a two-stage passive that increases the damage of your ranged attacks. The percentage is small, but it's better than nothing.
Shriven Husk: This three-stage passive lightens the healing debuff of later stages, although the percent change is only significant once all points are spent.
Meditative Haste: This passive reduces the time to revert stages in meditation by half. This is a great passive, but it comes very late in progression.
Soul Essence: All targeted Lich abilities cause Soul Trap to the affected enemy(s). This is useful if you want to fill Soul Gems quickly, as filled Soul Gems can also be used in the Meditation if need be. Also, it enables Soul Trapped targets to be absorbed into the Lich if no Soul Gems are available. A must have passive for the Lich.

To top it all off, let's talk about how the skill can be acquired. As you probably could tell, I will refrain from using the usual "mob spawn" mechanic. To gain this skill, a book could be found in The Hallow City, detailing a strange force in a certain location (I don't really care where). This starts a quest to the location, which turns out to be a sanctum for Liches. Kill all of the Liches you come across (the sanctum is instanced to you), and you come across an alter in a big room. Once you read the tome on the alter, you can either choose to gather the ingredients required for the transformation to become a Lich, or to destroy the alter so the vile magic can never be used again. Simple quest, but it doesn't end there. You eventually start hallucinating at certain points in your progression, starting new quests and, ultimately, you must choose what to do with your undead aspect. And, yes, I will be forcing this with all alternate states.
Here are your two choices:

Soul Husk

This is basically a supped up Lich form. You will rely more on Souls than ever before, and you even gain the ability to convert souls directly into your resource pools (even health). Soul Husks are also adapt with illusion, and their abilities gain extra control effects. They even have the unique ability to create Soul Gems from nothing, drawing from souls collected by the Husk. This ability has a cooldown, unless the ability gives another player a Soul Gem, then they can't gain another for half-an-hour. This is only one Gem at a time, and it is leveled based on the soul used. Basically, Soul Husks are Soul Gem factories. That doesn't mean Soul Husks are useless in combat, thanks to their increased CC capacity. Otherwise, there really isn't anything special about the Soul Husk.

Soul Reaper

A Soul Reaper is any PvPer's nightmare. The power of these monstrosities is frightening, and have a nasty trick that separates them from the regular Lich: it doesn't matter if a Reaper is melee or ranged. The Soul Reaper is equally adapt in melee as it is at a range. Some of its abilities gain an extra bonus if used in melee, and it is also much more resilient to damage than their Husk counterpart, but that's because the Soul Husk is more focused on not letting an enemy get close, while the Reaper doesn't. The Reaper's passives focus on doing as much damage as possible, and a little less CC than the Husk. Again, like the Husk, this isn't anything special.

Looking at both forms, you might think there really isn't a huge difference between the two. Well, you may be right. One is Tankier than the other, so? Well, the Soul Husk is more focused at staying at a range, and the Reaper really doesn't care where he is. So, really, it's just preference.

Anyways, that is my interpretation on how the Lich could work. Feel free to leave feedback for this Threorycrafting, and definitely help fill any gaps I may have left in the thread. Every little bit helps!

Magnys · July 2014

I personally like the idea(s) of expanded or additional concepts like Vamp/WW and things like the Lich you posted. I believe, if done right, they can add a TON to the game. My only wish regarding what they've done so far is that certain factions would not allow you to do any questing or what not with them if you are a certain arch-type (Vamp/WW). All in all though..great write up.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · July 2014

so what u are aying is u want a god mode?
have u read the boosts u wanne giv him? extra magica regen and spellpower to what 45% and 25% on stage 4, seriously? on top of that, increased armor while in light (what just doesnt make any sense to me) and extra resistance to frost, desease and poisen, and ok a little more dam from fire, 6 bonusses vs 1 weakness... i get how it fits lore wise, but practical its just gamebreaking
the thing thats currently wrong with the game is Light armor and staves vs other armors and anything stamina based, you just wanne triple that imbalance, everybody is gonna be a litch even worse as vamps pre patch
the idea is good, the execution is just way OP
(they could also make a necromancy skill line, which could use the skills you suggested, but not with the stages and transformation, which would be easyer to keep it all in line)

(*note I havent been able to read all in detail since I'm at work, but just that first spoiler got me thinking 'oboy')

poodlemasterb16_ESO · July 2014

Yeah as part of the 'necromancy' world class progression. The end of it but with serious tests to actually acquire it. Most people will not get past it without really working out the test mechanics and performing almost flawlessly.

Well that makes sense to me.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

yea this would be ridiculous, like a massively beefed up vampire. I can see the hordes of skirt wearing staff wielding DK former emperor liches taking keep after keep and dominating the battle field.

The_Sadist · July 2014

I prefer the original world skill line the 3 of us came up with http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95491/lich-concept/p1, but that's just me.
As a world skill line you're 'limited' to 2 spells and an ultimate alongside passives. Your suggestion is extremely broken and overpowered.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · July 2014

That is why I added the healing debuff. Remember that there a very few debuffs to healing in the game currently, and this is the only one that is worse than the Vampire Regen debuff. Remember, this comes from all forms of healing, except for those within the skill tree. I'm thinking upwards of 75% debuff, about 65% with the passives. I also see the Lich abilities, despite the damage, are fairly unreliable as healing abilities, as they would provide little little healing overall. Also, when I said the ultimates warrant a high Ultimate cost, I mean it (you know how everyone is complaining about how high the Ultimate cost is for the Werewolf Transformation? Well, this cost dwarfs that.).

Also, once you do the math, the numbers provided are not actually that high. A 25% boost to light armor is not very much if you look at the values for light armor. And a 10% boost to enchantments is about half as much as adding an Infused gem to crafted gear, so the numbers are not that high if you wear non-infused armor. Also, the numbers are slightly suggestive, and I was taking ideas from abilities that have worked in the past rather than broken mechanics. AoE stuns are not uncommon in MMOs, and Leeches have already been implemented in ESO. Also, the fact that world skill lines follow a specific pattern is slightly wrong, as devs did say they will add more WW abilities in the future. This thread follows the same pattern as my other theorycrafting threads on the Werewolf and Vampire. So, if you haven't already, please give those a read as well.

NOTE: 45% increase in Magicka Regen is overpowered? Not really, as the Regen rates are so low anyways in combat. 45% is just generous. You also can't forget that there is a nasty healing debuff.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · August 2014

I managed to take a look at the max values of the passives for armors, and get this: with 6 pieces of medium armor you can get a 24% boost the stamina regen with the right passives. And you call my numbers overpowered? Ha!

Sunrock · August 2014

No. This is not within the tradition of Elderscrolls.

PS: Healing buff to the most foul dark magic you can think of? Do you know anything about fantasy traditions and lore what so ever? Healing buffs are traditionally given to holy, light magic.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · August 2014

I realize that. However, you must remember that you yourself won't be able to heal yourself as much at the later stages. Do you want me to replace the Resto Staff buff with something... Less magical?

mixyesspitlickub17_ESO · August 2014

I am a big Lich fan. I don't really like vampires. This is too vampire-ish for me.

Some quick thoughts:

A lich could always look like a rotting corpse, with a 10 minute illusion spell so they can access towns.

It could take intentional, horribly evil acts to become a lich. (Blood of slain children, kitten skins, etc.)

It could have bonuses to defensive stats and high health/regen but heavy penalties to healing.

Weapons aside from the Destruction Staff could have penalties. Buffed Unarmed attacks could be an effective alternative.

In my view, a Lich is a wizard who has done horrible things to not die. It should be more focused on survival. It's powerful because it has lived long enough to become powerful (higher level).

Mjollo · August 2014

Very cool concept but there a few flaws that i have found with this that wouldn't work. 45% magicka is way to much for a bonus. Let's say the average person has 1600-2000 magicka by default. 1600 x 1.45= 2320. That's NOT including enchantments or passives so imagine with some passives of a High Elf added: Gift of Magnus which can increase max Magicka up to 10% at rank 3. 2320 +10% is already a staggering 2552. now add an 3 extra "white magicka glyphs" (without infused traits) on head, chest, and legs that would each apply 78 magicka (vr12) which is 78x3=234 plus the original 2552 which would equal 2786 max magicka. Now, This is NOT counting the multiple Reduce magicka costs from a Sorcerer and other High Elf passives. You would Theoretically have unlimited magicka to cast what ever you please.
As you said, If the Lich's only true weakness is fire damage guess what? Than can put 2 rings on giving them 1200 fire resistance EACH because they don't need those slots for extra magicka recovery or max magicka. and they still have a necklace slot for what ever else they want to increase.
Ultimately, what you have is a monster you cannot kill unless you make silver bolts proc even so, most players do not have on there rotation. 100% disease (which makes sense on undead but still) makes it invulnerable to poison arrow effects so bows are out. 50% resistance to frost makes it pointless to pull out a frost destro staff(not that many people do) and with 2400 fire resist forget impulse any DK abilities.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · August 2014

Then you must count in the healing debuff at later stages, which can be crippling if you aren't ready for the consequences (a shattering 75% at stage four). Believe me when I say this, if you don't have an active healing ability on your slot (sometimes even when you do), a full set of medium armor (which, to the Lich, is a rough estimate to the armor bonus to cloth) will not protect you from a large group of enemies. The sorcerer' slack of healing abilities can also be a problem, forcing you into the Mage's Guild to get Entropy, or investing in the Healing staff. This is why I added a drain to the Lich's first ability.

Also, this doesn't even compare to the bone-crushing bonuses to stamina on some of the other skill-lines. And skill-costs increase with level, even after investing in Feat-cost reductions, so the numbers provided in the skill list are relative. You must also remember that I stated that the skill-line is avaliable only in Coldharbour, which is impossible to reach at lower levels.

NOTE: The healing debuff only applies to abilities outside the Lich Skill tree. This includes drains, potions (which fail you at stage four), and nearly all healing spells and effects, as well as making food useless at stage four. However, healing provided inside the tree are unaffected, making Soul Drain a top priority. Also, Poison and Disease are two very different damage types in ESO, as stated in the glyphs you can make regarding them.

And Mix: The Vampire Skill-line was a sort of inspiration for the Lich I came up with. Lich's are undead, so they would need souls to maintain their form. And Stage One reflects upon the mortal you used to be. Also, ten minutes is never nearly enough to hide yourself during your restocking efforts. The stage system is not based on time spent, but by the damage you take and the actions you use, and you will not want to die whiles in town, as it would trigger the next stage instantly.
I also covered that healing debuff you mentioned, but screw the defensive buffs.
It also isn't ideal to use melee weapons while a Lich, as your defenses are rather frail, and although a bow would be nice, a Destruction Staff and a Restoration Staff are just as good if not better.

Lynx7386 · August 2014

A lich is created by extracting his or her own soul and putting it in a phylactery (usually along with the heart, I think).

We dont have souls.

Witar · August 2014

mixyesspitlickub17_ESO wrote: »

In my view, a Lich is a wizard who has done horrible things to not die.

Our character like any other daedra is unkillable lorewise. So it would make no sense to become lich for that

Woolenthreads · August 2014

Re: Healing. I was going to say "A Lich should take healing spells as damage" but then I realised "It's Restoration Magic". Think of it as being the difference between god-given power channelled into healing miracles and a self-powered spell which restores damage.

That being said I think that it'd be more interesting to have a Lich's healing spells turned into a negative energy killing and make negative energy spells like "Bat Swarm" used against it as a rejuvenation spell. It's also make it interesting to make certain powers non-beneficial to them ie Blood Fountain.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · August 2014

Woolenthreads wrote: »

Re: Healing. I was going to say "A Lich should take healing spells as damage" but then I realised "It's Restoration Magic". Think of it as being the difference between god-given power channelled into healing miracles and a self-powered spell which restores damage.

That being said I think that it'd be more interesting to have a Lich's healing spells turned into a negative energy killing and make negative energy spells like "Bat Swarm" used against it as a rejuvenation spell. It's also make it interesting to make certain powers non-beneficial to them ie Blood Fountain.

The worst thing you could do in an MMO. Reversing the routine effects of group healing on a single player just doesn't work in a multiplayer setting. You might as well remove the multiplayer content altogether.

However, this could only mean that allies shouldn't hurt you. But what about enemies...
To get the gist of what I'm saying, many turn-based RPGs have a special effect called Zombie, which causes most healing spells to damage the inflicted actor instead of healing, and poison heals him. A similar thing can be done with the Lich, but that can only apply to the enemy's abilities. Basically, more ways to kill an unstoppable monster, Defialed. *evil grin* The things you learn from the most basic element of RPGs... Thanks for the tip Woolenthreads, just remember that this is an MMO, not a traditional RPG.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

mixyesspitlickub17_ESO wrote: »

I am a big Lich fan. I don't really like vampires. This is too vampire-ish for me.

Some quick thoughts:

A lich could always look like a rotting corpse, with a 10 minute illusion spell so they can access towns.

It could take intentional, horribly evil acts to become a lich. (Blood of slain children, kitten skins, etc.)

It could have bonuses to defensive stats and high health/regen but heavy penalties to healing.

Weapons aside from the Destruction Staff could have penalties. Buffed Unarmed attacks could be an effective alternative.

In my view, a Lich is a wizard who has done horrible things to not die. It should be more focused on survival. It's powerful because it has lived long enough to become powerful (higher level).

kitten skins! ha! Make it puppies and I will wear a fur coat and be the undead cruella deville.

We don't really need more undead though, and lich has never been possible in TES.

Tessitura · August 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

I prefer the original world skill line the 3 of us came up with http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95491/lich-concept/p1, but that's just me.
As a world skill line you're 'limited' to 2 spells and an ultimate alongside passives. Your suggestion is extremely broken and overpowered.

A agree with you. I happen to like our concept better as well, but that could be because of the time we put into it. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95491/lich-concept/p1. We also put more work into balancing it.

Shameless repost of tree. ^

Lynx7386 wrote: »

A lich is created by extracting his or her own soul and putting it in a phylactery (usually along with the heart, I think).

We dont have souls.

We get our soul back. So it would be perfectly fine, lore wise, if they made it only possible after completing the main story.

Your argument has been regarded and explained away before.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

kitten skins! ha! Make it puppies and I will wear a fur coat and be the undead cruella deville.

We don't really need more undead though, and lich has never been possible in TES.

There is a first time for everything. This could be the first for liches, maybe even setting a standard for the future. And why not more undead? Not like there are anything else a person can turn into short of a god, or other versions of what the game already has. I would much prefer a new sub-race, over a different variation of vampire or werebeast. Lich is not just the only real option, but a new adition to the series that could help make ESO stand out. Also, liches = very cool. :P

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · August 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

I prefer the original world skill line the 3 of us came up with http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/95491/lich-concept/p1, but that's just me.
As a world skill line you're 'limited' to 2 spells and an ultimate alongside passives. Your suggestion is extremely broken and overpowered.

I finally found the time to look through your concept (again). I had a problem with it almost immediately. The Lich you guys came up with was far too inspired by Role-Play. About 70% of players who play MMO's don't do anything that is a role play aspect. I may be a role-player when it comes to how my character reacts to certain situations. Most other players don't.

This emphasis was present almost immediately as you presented the stage system. Since there is no system in place that punishes you for being at stage four, most players will have no reason at all to perform the ritual. The concept I came up with put this into account, creating the double-edged sword I was intending. The idea was to create something very powerful, but also have a crippling side effect as a result.

I also saw that the side effects you came up with are easily negated. 35% less healing, and 25% more fire weakness? That's child's play. The plague effect is also, admitidly, useless in a short fight. 5% of damage into healing is nothing if you end the fight quickly. Math: 500 damage makes 25 healing, out of about 2000 health around that particular level.

Defile, your first ability, is a CC ability that immobilizes enemies. It also applies the plague effect. Almost immediately I see a problem. The before mentioned plague effect is applied to everyone within the field, as well as doing damage overtime. Then there is the radius. HAVE YOU SEEN THE RADIUS OF ESO ABILITIES? Minuscule. This is just too overpowered, as well as impossible to dodge in PvP.

I don't have a problem with the Zombie, in fact I like that ability.

Death Tap drains the Magicka from nearby corpses. Useless. The Lich is a Highly magic based skill tree, and, ideally, a Lich would max out Light Armor to get the most Regen possible. No one will ever use this ability. This is just like Dark Exchange from the Dark Magic tree for the Sorcerer. Except Dark Exchange is ten times more useful, and even then it is never used...

The passives, although interesting, don't add anything to the skill tree. Sure, there is a barrier that suppresses damage, and a passive that grants new abilities to summons, but overall uninteresting. Then there's Savant and Death Knight. You can take only one, and you must exclude the other. Most players are mixed in their abilities, and this division is completely unnecessary.

I'm not saying you should scrap your idea. I just see many areas that I know players will exploit or find frustrating. I come from the realm of many MMOs, and I know if something is overpowered (or underpowered) just by looking at it. I may come back to this with a revised concept, but I believe we both have issues...

The_Sadist · August 2014

*cracks knuckles*

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

I finally found the time to look through your concept (again). I had a problem with it almost immediately. The Lich you guys came up with was far too inspired by Role-Play. About 70% of players who play MMO's don't do anything that is a role play aspect. I may be a role-player when it comes to how my character reacts to certain situations. Most other players don't.

Not really, the spells are lore friendly in terms of what a Lich is in the TES universe, but that aside it's not exactly made for role-play, it's functional and not overpowered compared to a majority of your suggestions. Furthermore, the world skill line follows a particular setup in terms of spells, passives and an ultimate, your concept is a fully fledged semi class line and doesn't follow these rules. Perhaps you should re-write your concept and I'll poke at it again.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

This emphasis was present almost immediately as you presented the stage system. Since there is no system in place that punishes you for being at stage four, most players will have no reason at all to perform the ritual. The concept I came up with put this into account, creating the double-edged sword I was intending. The idea was to create something very powerful, but also have a crippling side effect as a result.

Likewise, there's no punishment 'real' for a vampire being at stage 4, nor is there punishment for a werewolf if s/he transforms in front of a group of fighter's guild members. If anything you're pushing for a more role-play based Lich given your fixation of the cosmetic aspect, but that's just my interpretation. Your concept is broken beyond belief, what exactly is this 'double-edged sword' you speak of? A crazy amount of benefits at the cost of some fire weakness?

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

I also saw that the side effects you came up with are easily negated. 35% less healing, and 25% more fire weakness? That's child's play. The plague effect is also, admitidly, useless in a short fight. 5% of damage into healing is nothing if you end the fight quickly. Math: 500 damage makes 25 healing, out of about 2000 health around that particular level.

I'm in favour of 50% less healing and 50% fire weakness with NO real benefits outside of passives. You, on the other hand, go over kill. 50% fire weakness for a myriad of bonuses which would make you near indestructible, it sounds broken to me. 5% of damage into healing increased to 15% when you max the passive. 15% of 500 is 75 which may appear low, but it's passive gain. Casting a massive AoE spell which hits 4 targets yields 300 heal a pop, given block and other class passives it's pretty solid. You can't just make a broken concept in a MMO environment, there has to be a degree of balance.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

Defile, your first ability, is a CC ability that immobilizes enemies. It also applies the plague effect. Almost immediately I see a problem. The before mentioned plague effect is applied to everyone within the field, as well as doing damage overtime. Then there is the radius. HAVE YOU SEEN THE RADIUS OF ESO ABILITIES? Minuscule. This is just too overpowered, as well as impossible to dodge in PvP.

You're calling our concept overpowered? Amusing, but I digress. This is a concept, it can be adjusted and whatnot as seen fit. The radius is purely there as a place holder, the actual number can be whatever the developers see fit.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

I don't have a problem with the Zombie, in fact I like that ability.

Death Tap drains the Magicka from nearby corpses. Useless. The Lich is a Highly magic based skill tree, and, ideally, a Lich would max out Light Armor to get the most Regen possible. No one will ever use this ability. This is just like Dark Exchange from the Dark Magic tree for the Sorcerer. Except Dark Exchange is ten times more useful, and even then it is never used...

In your opinion no one will use it. The ability has an impact on nearby allies upon morph, so it's useful for teammates and whatnot. More over, the alternative morph restores magicka and increases DPS, you can't knock that. Furthermore, have you played an endgame character? Magicka is always an issue. Dark Exchange is a class specific spell, what about Nightblades or Templars? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue exactly. I use multi-potions alongside purple food and Magicka glyphs on my Sorcerer but still have Magicka issues at times, the spell can be useful and I'd use it personally for the damage buff and magicka regeneration.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

The passives, although interesting, don't add anything to the skill tree. Sure, there is a barrier that suppresses damage, and a passive that grants new abilities to summons, but overall uninteresting. Then there's Savant and Death Knight. You can take only one, and you must exclude the other. Most players are mixed in their abilities, and this division is completely unnecessary.

And your passives also don't add anything spectacular or 'new'. Passives are passives, they should compliment and not break, I think we did a decent job. The division is there to add a layer of depth to the concept given the parameters of 'undead knight' and 'powerful wizard' sort of notion. Once again, look at your own concept before trying to claim the division is useless, you yourself have a 'soul husk' and 'soul reaper' distinction.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not saying you should scrap your idea. I just see many areas that I know players will exploit or find frustrating. I come from the realm of many MMOs, and I know if something is overpowered (or underpowered) just by looking at it. I may come back to this with a revised concept, but I believe we both have issues...

I'm definitely saying you should go over your idea and conform it to the standard of a world skill line. Your concept is indeed broken, overpowered and not really lore friendly (TES Liches are immortal beings who used Necromacy or dark magics to achieve said state, they don't necessarily revolve around souls and are not 'reapers').

You have the ground work of a class, not a skill line and that's half my issue. Your debuffs are greatly inferior compared to your buffs and therefore it's not balanced. Your staging is also broken, we opted for a cosmetic aspect because you're constantly a Lich regardless of how much illusion / restoration magic your allocating to your appearance. The sheer benefit of becoming your Lich would mean everyone would do so and it would be vampires all over again. You concept is awesome for a single player game, not so much for an MMO.

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO · August 2014

Obviously, you haven't seen the nasty Healing Debuff I came up with. That's around 75%, which is nasty considering the amount of damage you normally take from just about everything. I will definitely run over my own concept, eventually. My original aim was to make something really powerful, while also creating a nasty set of side effects to counterbalance it. In truth, many of the abilities in this write up use mechanics that are already part of the game, and the passives add some extra flavor to the Skill Tree.

Also, the fact that World Skill Trees follow a set pattern has been disproven by the devs. They already said they will add abilities to the Werewolf Skill Tree.

The_Sadist · August 2014

mr.scottkenyonub17_ESO wrote: »

Obviously, you haven't seen the nasty Healing Debuff I came up with. That's around 75%, which is nasty considering the amount of damage you normally take from just about everything. I will definitely run over my own concept, eventually. My original aim was to make something really powerful, while also creating a nasty set of side effects to counterbalance it. In truth, many of the abilities in this write up use mechanics that are already part of the game, and the passives add some extra flavor to the Skill Tree.

Also, the fact that World Skill Trees follow a set pattern has been disproven by the devs. They already said they will add abilities to the Werewolf Skill Tree.

No I haven't, point it out in your original thread, I must have missed it. Furthermore, 75% with no self heal outside of an ultimate which fully restores your health is indeed nasty, nasty enough to make you a hindrance in any group situation. 50% less healing received plus a passive which self heals and isn't altered by the initial reduction seemed good on paper, but who knows. 75% reduction in heals and 50% fire weakness is probably going to get you killed in most fire intensive content.. which is prevalent in both PvP and PvE. Tone down the passives, the weaknesses and general power and we can talk.
In theory I like some of your concepts, obviously I'm being super critical due to my contribution to the other proposed idea and also I'm not a huge fan of the direction you're trying to take.

Link please, it would make for an interesting read.