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Light Armor's problem is that it reduces the cost of spells by 21%
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PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »Put in an slotted ability for heavy armor that buffs the hell out of weapon damageAll Armor types should have resource management options.
Heavy 1%Magicka 3%Stamina cost reduction
Medium 2%Magicka 2%Stamina cost reduction
Light 3%Magicka 1% Stamina cost reduction
All 5 piece bonuses should be removed and replaced with similar per piece bonuses.The 5 piece bonuses are truly restrictive. This would would really encourage more hybrid and mixed armor builds.
Buffing survivability of Heavy should be done after this since it would be very risky in term of pvp balance.
At VR12 resource management is the game. The 21% reduction from light helps but it is still not enough to remove resource management from the calculations. This is why every good magicka dps build still uses Spell Symmetry at endgame.
So Yes Buff Heavy and Medium for beter sustain. Don't nerf light armor sustain.
This is a fantastic idea.
Add an ability for heavy armor that buffs the hell out of weapon damage while slotted and you'd have the perfect counterpoint to light armor being able to do damage while their damage shields are up.
Complete freedom in armor type then without nerfing anything!
I would agree only if it is another toggled ability that has two great shiny red balls spining around your oh so manly Curved Sword.
I don't know if a passive or buff is necessary though. The truth is that melee doesn't only have dps problem it also has a great deal of stupid,boring,awkward skills for PVE. I am not interested in trying DW again no matter how much the buff stamina regen .cost reductions,weapon damage buffs they introduce. Blood craze - crap skill that does nothing on most end game monster since bleeding doesn't do much.Flurry-the worst skill animation I have seen in a game recently. We are only left to play with WW and Sparks that are nice but not much you can do with single target. The 2handed also doesn't really have a good single target skill and only makes for a good aoe ultimate spammer.Edited by PBpsy on August 22, 2014 4:23AMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO wrote: »
Expecting a large warrior in heavy armor not to be able to swing their weapon extremely hard is also silly
Light armor only really provides good protection when used in conjunction with protective spells. That's why they should add a slottable ability to allow heavy to do damage.
I'm fine with heavy armor hitting hard, but the tradeoff should be greatly reduced attack speed vs. cloth.
We are now in agreement! Make them hit really hard but much slower. It could still do really good sustained DPS and be a reasonable alternative to medium crit builds.I would agree only if it is another toggled ability that has two great shiny red balls sniping around your oh so manly Curved Sword.
I don't know if a passive or buff is necessary though. The truth is that melee doesn't only have dps problem it also has a great deal of stupid,boring,awkward skills for PVE. I am not interested in trying DW again no matter how much the buff stamina regen .cost reductions,weapon damage buffs they introduce. Blood craze - crap skill that does nothing on most end game monster since bleeding doesn't do much.Flurry-the worst skill animation I have seen in a game recently. We are only left to play with WW and Sparks that are nice but not much you can do with single target. The 2handed also doesn't really have a good single target skill and only makes for a good aoe ultimate spammer.
Deal! I'll take a glowy manly 2 hander, buff heavy armor and 2h trees and I'll take it! Edited by jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO on August 22, 2014 4:05AMI can has typing!0 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭Go to http://ukmernfur.guildlaunch.com//forums/viewtopic.php?p=36568564&gid=371741&gid=0&sid=5028a41deedad2ae3ecb60bd2b972123&sso=1408681510 Oh if any of you wanna join and are EU AD the more the merrier0 -
Dudegr✭And medium armor passive reduces stamina costs by 14% with 7 pieces plus every dps weapon tree 2H,DW,BOW have an extra -20% costs from passive which brings reduce costs to 34%, NERF ? No ofc ... I don't understand the point of this thread ... same nerf what i dont use post like always ... oh get a life people ...4 -
Khami✭✭✭✭cromica81_ESO wrote: »Venereous44 wrote: »Lets not break the one armor that works right. The extra buffs help equal the low armor rating...
Just keep complaining about the other armor types instead.
Except as people have already stated you can hit armor cap while wearing full light armor, so there is zero negative except for how ugly it is.
You sacrifice 26 spell power or one or two skill slots that you may not want to use.on top of the 2 slots you sacrifice on freaking balls since you can't get spell crit worth crap from gear that you don't get in trials.
Spell power cap has been lowered. Using jewelry to reach the cap is not necessary. I have a full medium DK with DW+Bow with 99 spell power (30 points from the cap at 129). Resistance negation via the sharpened trait on staves (as well as bows and two handers) stacking with resist bypass of light armor is were the largest portion of damage increase comes from.
Spell crit is obtainable via skills such as Inner Light, and crafted sets Willows Path, Twilights Embrace, and Night Mother's Gaze. Not to mention the temporary buff granted by potions of spell critical.
If you are a NB caster going for Spell crit on gear will require you to sacrifice other stuff such as extra Regen. Magicka, Cost reduction. This means that you will have to use either Spell Symmetry or Siphoning Attacks. Siphoning attacks cost 22% of my spell power which means I actually have to have 127 to get your 99 spell power.Either way 2 or 3 slots for spell crit and resource management. I am not COMPLAINING though I am happy with my set up. I am just pointing out that with light armor there are sacrifices you have to make. It is in no way light armor with armor cap for free. The post I was replying was definitely implying it. It is certainly possible to get soft cap in light but no end game PVE DPS will put 2 freaking armor rings on or be able to user armor biffs without a pretty large sacrifice in dps.
The spell penetration is another topic entirely and should be taken care of , Preferably In a way that has minimal impact on pve.
I'm a VR12 Khajiiti NB caster. This is my trials build.
I'm softcapped with max magicka and spell resistance. My magicka recover is 105 where my health and stam are half that or more. My spell crit is 71% my spell power is 131.
I run funnel health, crippling crasp, impale, siphoning spirit, inner light on my main bar with restro staff.
2nd bar is destro staff, elemental ring, power extraction, impale, spell symmerty, inner light.
5-piece Magnus, 3 piece Warlock, and 3 piece Wise Mage.Edited by Khami on August 22, 2014 5:23AM0 -
Kronosphere✭✭✭✭There is no single problem with the Light Armor skill line, it has multiple best options which makes it the best option.
•It increases magicka recovery which primarily contributes to sustain.
•It increases spell penetration which primarily contributes to overall DPS.
•It increases spell resistance which primarily contributes to survivability.
•It decreases the cost of magicka skills (all class skills) which primarily contributes to efficiency and overall resource optimization.
Add in the concepts that:
•The overwhelming majority of skills use magicka.
•The overwhelming majority of magicka skills are simply better than stamina alternatives or have no stamina alternative.
•The gear support for magicka vastly outweighs the gear support for stamina (I.E. no stamina equivalent to Warlock, or Syrabane, or Magicka Furnace, etc.)
•Magicka does not have an opportunity cost of losing the ability to use CC Break, Dodge, Block, Bash, Sprint, or Sneak if skills are used to consume it and alternatively the loss of ability to use skills if those features are used (only Stamina faces this constraint).
So to say the entire problem with light armor is due to any singular element is fundamentally short sighted and logically flawed. There's a much bigger problem with the game balance than any one passive in one skill line.
probs best single statement ive read overall about light armor problem, well said~House Indoril~
Submit to the three, the spirits and thy lords.3 -
Smiteye✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »Medium doesn't have as high of a cost reduction because most (all?) of the stamina weapon lines have passives that already reduce the cost of abilities.
Additionally medium armor also has a 14% stamina base cost reduction *AND* higher base ability damage in lines using it *AND* are available to any class *AND* provide 21% physical crit chane instead of the 10% available from light armor.3 -
BrassRazoo✭✭✭✭✭BrassRazoo wrote: »Sorcerers and Templars are the only classes that should be allowed to wear light armour in the first place.
No.
Well if you can explain why it makes sense, or in this case, is successful, for "Tanks" to wear Cloth and wield Staves then I may change my mind.
I can appreciate the apparent freedom this games design is trying to achieve but it has failed.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ViciousWayz wrote: »
Light armor will cap spell resist and a pair of resist physical harm enchants will cap armor while wearing it. No sacrifice on protection. Additionally plenty of resources to use armor skills, reflect skills, damage shields, and healing, all at large cost reductions.
No price is paid wearing light armor. The fact that it does not have any trade off is part of the reason it's optimal.
This is pretty much the core of the issue.
Light Armour can build to tank effectively as Heavy Armour with little sacrifice.
Heavy Armour should be substantially better at reducing damages than Light Armour is, but it isn't.
The issue isn't that DPS-gear is doing DPS too well; it's that DPS gear is doing survivability as well as Survivability gear.
If you use 3x armor enchants to softcap (not even hardcap, but just softcap) your armor rating you're giving up +39 spell damage which is, dependent on the ability, in the range of 15-20% damage or healing for class line skills. Hardly a small sacrifice. A heavy armor user can obtain substantially more protection than a light armor user. Softcaps are just that: softcaps, not limits. The actual hard cap is about 50% reduction in incoming armor-checking damage (Nightblade class skills like ambush, weapon line skills, and a lot of other abilities).Edited by Attorneyatlawl on August 22, 2014 10:05AM-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.2 -
Ghenra✭✭✭ZOS will not nerf light armor because they are cowards, look at the first post, at this moment it has 15 LOL vs 6 agree and 2 awesome, why? Because the majority of this game is lamer players using the OP Magicka builds with light armor and ZOS don't want lose this quatitity of cryer kids subs.
Simply.4 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BrassRazoo wrote: »Sorcerers and Templars are the only classes that should be allowed to wear light armour in the first place.
I slightly disagree.
I think that Sorcerors should be the only class that should gain any major gain from it, but all classes should be able to wear light armour.
I also think they need to rebalance heavy and medium armour so it gives more protection, and less of a disadvantage in magicka terms.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule1 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cromica81_ESO wrote: »Venereous44 wrote: »Lets not break the one armor that works right. The extra buffs help equal the low armor rating...
Just keep complaining about the other armor types instead.
Except as people have already stated you can hit armor cap while wearing full light armor, so there is zero negative except for how ugly it is.
You sacrifice 26 spell power or one or two skill slots that you may not want to use.on top of the 2 slots you sacrifice on freaking balls since you can't get spell crit worth crap from gear that you don't get in trials.
Spell power cap has been lowered. Using jewelry to reach the cap is not necessary. I have a full medium DK with DW+Bow with 99 spell power (30 points from the cap at 129). Resistance negation via the sharpened trait on staves (as well as bows and two handers) stacking with resist bypass of light armor is were the largest portion of damage increase comes from.
Spell crit is obtainable via skills such as Inner Light, and crafted sets Willows Path, Twilights Embrace, and Night Mother's Gaze. Not to mention the temporary buff granted by potions of spell critical.
If you are a NB caster going for Spell crit on gear will require you to sacrifice other stuff such as extra Regen. Magicka, Cost reduction. This means that you will have to use either Spell Symmetry or Siphoning Attacks. Siphoning attacks cost 22% of my spell power which means I actually have to have 127 to get your 99 spell power.Either way 2 or 3 slots for spell crit and resource management. I am not COMPLAINING though I am happy with my set up. I am just pointing out that with light armor there are sacrifices you have to make. It is in no way light armor with armor cap for free. The post I was replying was definitely implying it. It is certainly possible to get soft cap in light but no end game PVE DPS will put 2 freaking armor rings on or be able to user armor biffs without a pretty large sacrifice in dps.
The spell penetration is another topic entirely and should be taken care of , Preferably In a way that has minimal impact on pve.
I'm a VR12 Khajiiti NB caster. This is my trials build.
I'm softcapped with max magicka and spell resistance. My magicka recover is 105 where my health and stam are half that or more. My spell crit is 71% my spell power is 131.
I run funnel health, crippling crasp, impale, siphoning spirit, inner light on my main bar with restro staff.
2nd bar is destro staff, elemental ring, power extraction, impale, spell symmerty, inner light.
5-piece Magnus, 3 piece Warlock, and 3 piece Wise Mage.
Exactly. You are not using 2 x 600 armor rings or any skills that caps your armor. No one does in pve.ESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)1 -
Aeratus✭✭✭✭✭
I use 3x 600 armor rings on my NB light armor tank, for total armor over 3k with the unassailable set bonus.cromica81_ESO wrote: »Venereous44 wrote: »Lets not break the one armor that works right. The extra buffs help equal the low armor rating...
Just keep complaining about the other armor types instead.
Except as people have already stated you can hit armor cap while wearing full light armor, so there is zero negative except for how ugly it is.
You sacrifice 26 spell power or one or two skill slots that you may not want to use.on top of the 2 slots you sacrifice on freaking balls since you can't get spell crit worth crap from gear that you don't get in trials.
Spell power cap has been lowered. Using jewelry to reach the cap is not necessary. I have a full medium DK with DW+Bow with 99 spell power (30 points from the cap at 129). Resistance negation via the sharpened trait on staves (as well as bows and two handers) stacking with resist bypass of light armor is were the largest portion of damage increase comes from.
Spell crit is obtainable via skills such as Inner Light, and crafted sets Willows Path, Twilights Embrace, and Night Mother's Gaze. Not to mention the temporary buff granted by potions of spell critical.
If you are a NB caster going for Spell crit on gear will require you to sacrifice other stuff such as extra Regen. Magicka, Cost reduction. This means that you will have to use either Spell Symmetry or Siphoning Attacks. Siphoning attacks cost 22% of my spell power which means I actually have to have 127 to get your 99 spell power.Either way 2 or 3 slots for spell crit and resource management. I am not COMPLAINING though I am happy with my set up. I am just pointing out that with light armor there are sacrifices you have to make. It is in no way light armor with armor cap for free. The post I was replying was definitely implying it. It is certainly possible to get soft cap in light but no end game PVE DPS will put 2 freaking armor rings on or be able to user armor biffs without a pretty large sacrifice in dps.
The spell penetration is another topic entirely and should be taken care of , Preferably In a way that has minimal impact on pve.
I'm a VR12 Khajiiti NB caster. This is my trials build.
I'm softcapped with max magicka and spell resistance. My magicka recover is 105 where my health and stam are half that or more. My spell crit is 71% my spell power is 131.
I run funnel health, crippling crasp, impale, siphoning spirit, inner light on my main bar with restro staff.
2nd bar is destro staff, elemental ring, power extraction, impale, spell symmerty, inner light.
5-piece Magnus, 3 piece Warlock, and 3 piece Wise Mage.
Exactly. You are not using 2 x 600 armor rings or any skills that caps your armor. No one does in pve.Edited by Aeratus on August 22, 2014 1:05PM0 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Depending on how a person chooses to play, medium and heavy armor have some pretty good passives of their own. Passives that a player in light armor won't have. If everyone wants to be a DPS mage, then everyone will wear light armor. That's what it's for, but they won't have the stamina or health passives that the other armors give.Edited by SFBryan18 on August 22, 2014 1:35PM1 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
recommended something like this in the past. apparently thats "bad"All Armor types should have resource management options.
Heavy 1%Magicka 3%Stamina cost reduction
Medium 2%Magicka 2%Stamina cost reduction
Light 3%Magicka 1% Stamina cost reduction
All 5 piece bonuses should be removed and replaced with similar per piece bonuses.The 5 piece bonuses are truly restrictive. This would would really encourage more hybrid and mixed armor builds.
Buffing survivability of Heavy should be done after this since it would be very risky in term of pvp balance.
At VR12 resource management is the game. The 21% reduction from light helps but it is still not enough to remove resource management from the calculations. This is why every good magicka dps build still uses Spell Symmetry at endgame.
So Yes Buff Heavy and Medium for beter sustain. Don't nerf light armor sustain.
PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
RoyMallis✭✭✭I kinda feel that you shouldn't get damage buffs from armor, it should come from skill line passives and enchantments. Just a thought, I am open counter thoughts on this.I do what I can, when I can, to provide in game help to those seeking it. @RoyMallis1 -
Resueht✭✭✭The first thing I want to see change is requiring a majority of armor pieces for respective active skills in the armor trees. For example, to cast Immovable, require 5 or more pieces of heavy armor. It only makes sense...If she doesn't know the pain of cliffracers, she's too young for you.1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »Nerfing something that works how it should by reducing its potency instead of correcting the problems in the other sets is lazy "fixing" and actually doesn't fix anything. It doesn't make you have more fun but it makes others have less fun. A good fix is one that doesn't cause Light Armor users to have less fun but instead makes the other choices more fun.
That's why I suggested the alternate of buffing the other armor types' cost reduction to 0.5/1/1.5 as an alternative method of addressing the problem.
No, you don't address anything, you break what's not broken while not fixing what's broken.
Spell cost is enough that I need to use mana-replenish abilities, spam mana potions (ever wondered why they cost 12k a stack?) and use Warlock stuff for the regen instead of going for better gear. Even then, I (and every other sorc) have to sweat 50 shirts just to still be well below other classes DPS in trials.
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
Nhines✭✭✭HomerSamson wrote: »How about making armor relevant to damage mitigation so people running around in underwear are as squishy as they should be
Pretty much this. Nefing light instead of strongly incentivizing medium and heavy isn't going to work, those two will still end up being poor choices.
If you raise the armor cap substantially, you'd still be better off wearing light armor and using mitigation spells for tanking. The only way heavy armor is going to have any real value is if it has scaling (per piece) percentage damage reduction, whether it's calculated before or after armor/sr. Make tanks actually tanky. Perhaps add it to the Bracing passive so it requires at least 5 pieces, then tweak the regen on Constitution so it's magicka instead of health. Do people really care about in combat health regen with as many ways to heal as there are in this game?
Med armor is a totally different issue. Even with "buffs" to stamina builds, the majority of skills are magicka based. Maybe some sort of attack speed/double strike passive for med armor, idk.1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You likely know first hand how quickly a group will take Sorc DPS over Nightblade. Not a large difference between the two in DPS, but that Sorcs sustain doesn't miss a beat with crit surge (makes specing for more DPS mean you're more survivable). Though that's a class inequality thing that I'm not even sure is really a problem.
I do trials with 3 different guilds.
The "soft core" one cancels trials where there are more than 2-3 sorcs and / or there are less than 4-5 NBs. Because with sorcs ultra-low DPS and mana depletion it's hard to beat DPS race encounters.
The hard core ones allow 2 sorcs exclusively because of the AoE silence, else they would only accept 1-2 templars and ZERO sorcs. That's how "inequal" we are.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭BrassRazoo wrote: »BrassRazoo wrote: »Sorcerers and Templars are the only classes that should be allowed to wear light armour in the first place.
No.
Well if you can explain why it makes sense, or in this case, is successful, for "Tanks" to wear Cloth and wield Staves then I may change my mind.
I can appreciate the apparent freedom this games design is trying to achieve but it has failed.
It makes sense because of Armor Cap. Nobody is getting good armor from Light Armor, they buff their Armor through other means, and there are plenty. So, when a Medium or Heavy Armor with the SAME setup as the Light Armor guy compare stats, Diminishing Returns leaves them about the same Armor.
The best fix: Armor Cap should be lowered to 1,000.
1. Light Armor should increase this by 5% per piece worn. (up to 35%, or 1350).
2. Medium Armor should increase Armor Cap by 10% per piece worn (up to 70%, or 1700).
3. Heavy Armor should increase the cap by 20% per piece worn. (up to 140%, or 2400).
Within; Without.0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭If you raise the armor cap substantially, you'd still be better off wearing light armor and using mitigation spells for tanking.
And yet The Road Ahead states concerning the new Champion System:
"The final result of those changes isn’t entirely known yet. As an example, we believe the Champion System may entirely remove the concept of soft caps from the game."
So I agree with you, but ZOS is just bound and determined to totally *** over any possibility of game balance. It does say "may" but the fact they're seriously entertaining the idea enough to mention it in the road ahead indicates a complete disregard for balance. Time will tell, but everything on the horizon from Spell Crafting to the Champion System looks like a serious *** storm, and the end of the road for anyone who isn't a dress wearing stick wiggler.0 -
BloodStorm✭✭✭All light armor Templar Altmer vampire with innerlight toggled and spamming blazing shield is what Mannimarco wishes he was because light armor makes us immortal aka GOD mode.4
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Kvasir Silverpaw✭✭✭david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »It certainly won't surprise many people, but in light of the developers mild nerf to light armor's spell penetration, this needs to be said (because it seems the developers either don't know it or are not willing to accept it):
The central problem with light armor is that it can reduce the cost of all spells up to 21%.
Nothing in the other armor lines even comes close to this.
The problem with Light Armor being superior to heavy will not be solved until this is addressed. This is why you can wear light armor and have not just greater DPS and healing, but greater survivability too (since you have more mana for defensive shields and buffs and self-heals).
My suggestion: reduce the spell cost reduction from light armor from 1/2/3 % per piece to 0.5/1/1.5 % per piece. Either that, or give medium and heavy a 0.5/1/1.5 % increase.
Then we might see some real choice on types of armor. Until that issue is addressed, light will still be superior to heavy.
nerf light armor, nerf sorc, nerf light armor, nerf sorc, nerf light armor, nerf sorc
and the broken record of complaint continues....
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