Contradicting Systems in ESO.

Soloeus · August 2014

Purpose: Some systems in ESO contradict the purpose or goal of other systems. Economy is encouraged by limited inventory, scarcity of Improvement Mats, and Guild Trade Kiosks. However it is countered by 100% Self-Sufficiency, a "Closed Market" economy and a lack of items you would want to pay for.

In this thread, I am looking at how some of the game systems contradict the purpose or goal of other systems.

1. Guild Stores. No Auction House - Low Economy. Everyone is forced to join multiple Trade Guilds, and participate in a Narrow Market. This itself Counters the goal of having Active Commerce, which can be seen in: Gold Sinks, Limited Inventory, Gear Changes (which force you to acquire new mats).

We have so many reasons to participate in commerce... But its just a pain in the arse. I hate dealing with humans and "Haggling" or "Negotiating" with the trolls, they sap my energy. This discourages the economy I am encouraged to partake in.

2. Self-Sufficient Crafting. Crafting System letting everyone master everything is good. What isn't good is that so many Gear Sets are downright worthless. It is like those who develop the gear don't play the game so they don't really know what types of bonuses would be desirable to different player types.

We can craft everything but... It sure takes a lot of Skill Points at low levels, forcing you to choose. But if you just ignore Crafting and at V12, begin deconstructing Nightwood/Void Cloth/Void Iron items, you will master it just the same and this holds true for every craft. This makes Crafting feel less valuable to you when you learn that everyone has 50 Alchemy, Provisioning, Wood, Metal, Cloth. This also Counters the goal of having Good Commerce.

3. Linear Progression. Even if you don't grind, you will outlevel dungeons, bosses and dolmens quickly. This creates a Linear Order you "must" experience the game in, or else you are punished. You get no exp/loot. This ruins grouping by encouraging players to ignore dungeons until they are V10-12. There is also no real economic gain from doing the dungeons. This makes many dungeons/bosses/dolmens have a resource cost (potions, repair, food, etc.) and no reward.

So, there is no Carrot on the Stick. And, everybody knows it. If I could enter a Leveled Instance of Solo/Public/Group Dungeons with Level Scaling on Enemies/Loot/Exp, then I would benefit from doing dungeons and moreso, from being in a group.

4. Groups. Casual Grouping occurs all over the world but is borky due to phasing. Casual Groups can't really compete in PVP or even PVE. Casual Groups really can't pug Dungeons or Craglorn. This punishes Casual Players for the Skill Gap between themselves and Professional MMO Athletes (I said it). This reinforces the Economy by making only one group of players Providers. However it also contradicts the Economy. The objects they exclusively have, if you don't have 2m to spend on an outfit you are better off Crafting your own and not buying from them.

This furthers the idea of Exclusive Providers and ensures Economy is the only way for most players to obtain -many- items. However the player is not really empowered to buy these items because they probably won't be top tier very long given stealth nerfs or introduction of more elite group areas.

Lack of Casual Grouping with High End Rewards keeps the Casual Players unable to gain enough wealth to purchase the items anyway, so the only players who can afford the items are also the ones farming them; contradicting the Economy.

Lack of High End Solo Rewards has the above listed effect that designates Solo Players as Consumers who can only get High End Gear through the Economy. Yet they won't have the Gold Power to get High End Gear to really compete in PVP or be viable in Elite Trials.

5. One Type of PVP. There is only one type of PVP, which is Cyrodil. Smaller Scale PVP such as 1v1 Duels, Player Arenas and Battleground Areas don't exist. And, I don't care if it isn't unique or exists in other MMO's, heck, Swords exist in other MMOs. This contradicts the idea of social bonding and grouping. Players who want to PVP only have one form available to them, and many who want to do group content are Casuals not MMO Athletes so they have bad social experiences which discourages social bonding and developing friendships.

Conclusion: To close, I would like to say that Zenimax needs to think a little bit more about:
1. The type of game they want ESO to be, versus what it really is.
2. The types of gameplay discouraged/reinforced by content/design choices.
3. The direction of actual gameplay versus desired gameplay.

Hopefully, more people will contribute more ways in which current Game Systems either contradict or discourage participation in other Game Systems in ESO. This is not a "Complaining" thread. This is a thread that will hopefully bring to light some of the areas in which ESO can encourage, rather than discourage certain types of Gameplay such as Grouping and Economy.

Rologue · August 2014

Insightful, but I disagree with a lot of what u said (especially small scale PvP.) but well thought out none the less.

Soloeus · August 2014

I would like to see the grounds you disagree on, to add depth to the issues. I don't mind if you disagree at all. I only mind when people respond with assumptions that I am a bad player then proceed to lecture me about good gameplay, or other things which don't address the content in posts.

I don't know if having Small Scale PVP would reinforce participation in other systems but the idea is that having more options would enable more players into higher tier rewards and bigger piles of gold to participate in the economy with.

Of course, there are also downsides (would it discourage other players from participation in Cyrodil if there were battlegrounds and arenas, for example).

Do you feel there are any Game Systems which actually discourage rather than reinforce participation in other Game Systems?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · August 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Conclusion: To close, I would like to say that Zenimax needs to think a little bit more about:
1. The type of game they want ESO to be, versus what it really is.
2. The types of gameplay discouraged/reinforced by content/design choices.
3. The direction of actual gameplay versus desired gameplay.

1. I want a game, such as WOW, Rift, et. al. where I can level without being forced to 'group up', where grouping is optional and is there for those whose main interest is loot farming (because God knows there's no other useful purpose served by most dungeon crawling after you've done it once).

2. ESO is rapidly becoming a 1990s group-or-die game where all progress and story content is gated for groups only, as evidenced by the group-or-die soloers-need-not-apply content updates in 1.2, 1,3 and now 1.4.

These updates provide story content gated by grouping, they are 'adventure' zones where 'adventuring' requires grouping when most people who like grouping are there for the phat lewt, speedruns and leaderboard positions: ie. mainly for the e-peeners.

3. The game is headed in the opposite direction I want it to go and indeed way different from the way it was presented pre-release, especially in the beta phase. I don't PVP so am locked out of much PVE content in Cyrodiil, which seriously reduces the content available for me to play even if I wanted to 'group up'.

Result: two pre-order accounts with 6 months subs. canceled and remaining time ticking.

Spottswoode · August 2014

1. Guild stores
I'm in partial agreement with your reasoning, but the general intent was to force players to interact in the marketplace. The limited guild membership would seem to be a stronger contradiction to me. The overall limited effectiveness of the guild stores in general seem to provide an incentive to craft your own gear as opposed to purchasing it.

2. Self-Sufficient Crafting
I'm of the belief this is functioning as intended. They are still monkeying with the set bonuses, though, so the set bonuses should improve over time. Ideally the "low level" set bonuses should outperform the higher ones, so you're right, most of the set bonuses will be of minimal use and gradually phased out completely as you level.
It's likely that the devs wanted high level crafters to have a substantial market advantage over players (and to prevent craft grinding with bots or what have you) in the long run. The limited market power of guild stores does work against that goal, however.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · August 2014

@fromtesonlineb16_ESO are you sure you playing Elder Scrolls Online????

The only areas that need grouping are Group Dungeons, and Craglorn Quests.
The rest of the pretty HUGE game can be done completely solo.

@‌Soloeus

1. NO to Action House. Full stop. Market manipulation with bots is not a solution to economy. You need to join two good trading guild, that has merchants across the map and a Guild Master who doesn't see the profits from the tax growing his personal bank account, but spends that money to bid for the good trade places.

(For AD the ones in Reapers March are going for 150,000 gold per week, but the returns are even better).

And keeps removing accounts that are active more than 4 weeks.
I would only add that they SHOULD make the limit bigger to 1000 members, because 500 is tad small atm.

2. That is coming from Elder Scrolls mentality. Yes is great to be able to craft your own stuff, and I do not see the problem for it. Still there is big market to sell your wares to people not bothering with it.

3. Your proposal will increase "grinding" making the rest of the map completely empty from players. No. DAOC tried that and killed the game. (Catacombs patch).

4. I do not see the issue with PUG. We group up with random people most of the time and we do dungeons, trials etc. The only issue is when people have grind their character with only 5 skills, 1 set of armour and 1 weapon. And they cannot adapt. Also some lack brains.

I went to help a friend "grind" at Hirsine, first time as pure "healer". And I was that good, after they explained to me how to do it, that they paid me 5,000g per hour for a week (2 hours per day) to help them as healer grind their alts also at Hirsine. When I went on holidays, they gave up after day one, having changed 6 different healers who couldn't understand the basics of what was needed.

FYI My usual setup is close combat Templar Tank.
And I am not a "pro" player but as casual as possible.... (learned many game mechanics on my 3rd month in game...)

5. Other MMOs have also 1 pvp method Arena. At least Cyrodiil is so vast you can have 1v1 battles and small scale ones. I always do when I do not stick with the zerg train.
And I prefer Cyrodiil than Arena pvp. (btw Imperial City is coming for more soloing and skirmishing).

1. The type of game they want ESO to be, versus what it really is.
2. The types of gameplay discouraged/reinforced by content/design choices.
3. The direction of actual gameplay versus desired gameplay.

Maybe if ESO needs so drastic changes, is not the game for you? And you should look for something else like WoW?

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · August 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

5. One Type of PVP. There is only one type of PVP, which is Cyrodil. Smaller Scale PVP such as 1v1 Duels, Player Arenas and Battleground Areas don't exist. And, I don't care if it isn't unique or exists in other MMO's, heck, Swords exist in other MMOs. This contradicts the idea of social bonding and grouping. Players who want to PVP only have one form available to them, and many who want to do group content are Casuals not MMO Athletes so they have bad social experiences which discourages social bonding and developing friendships.

You are correct on many point except this one.
There isn't only one form of PvP but one framework for PvP where plenty of forms can take place.

Currently, there are other issues in the game preventing it from properly working (aoe target caps) but smale scale, large scale ,sieges, open world and organised pvp can exist in the Cyrodiil framework.

Being in a non instanced world means that player do interact with each other.
You can go in a dungeon, get jumped by an enemy and have a friendly come and save you: instant positive interaction.

The campaign format is also well designed to have "server culture" form.
I'm an haderus(eu) player, and I know and recognise the other players in my campaign. Be them friendlies or enemies.
I had countless solo occasions where I had positive interaction with stranger, and some where I chose to keep in touch and regularly speak with them.

This is an mmo, it should be striving for an immersive virtual world.
Instanced content would be a detriment to that.

Elf_Boy · August 2014

To: @Soloeus

I am not @Rologue, I hope I can pick up the threads of the conversation and chime in a few random thought that come to mind while reading the original post. It is past bedtime and my doctor has given me a rather strong muscle relaxer to help with chronic back pain. Please forgive any spelling or grammatical errors.

Thank you.

I think your basic premise as outlined in purpose is flawed. This may well be true for you, it is not a good strategy to assume others have the same motivations and goals you hold dear.

Not saying your are wrong or right -for you- just they may not be very valid for say, me.

Many do like to play the market with an AH system. Some just get annoyed at all the games people play trying to corner the market, buy and resell, and all the other baggage that come with it.

You can join 5 guilds giving you access to 5 guild stores, sell you heart out.

I dont see bag space or it's lack driving economy. I see wanting to make items and buy sets driving economy and while the small size of our bags and bank (B&B) doesnt allow us to hoard to our hearts content it does let us make what we want, having a good guild even makes that easier with no having to play the stocks to get rock salt or a salt shaker. (wow reference)

1) I see guild stores as useful and helpful. I can go buy a few set pieces and not feel like I should have brought lube with me.

2) Just because your not happy with the items does not mean they are bad. Just means your not happy with them. I see a lot of sets and items I like.

3) Silly me, I thought the dungeons were there so I could go in, experience the content, bosses, story and all all that sissy rp stuff. I didnt realize I was supposed to be scraping the floor and using a metal detector spell to find copper pieces and lost rings.

Please explain to me a game of this style (fantasy rpg mmo) that does not have this so called linearity? Yes, some like GW2 do a better job of scaling ppl to the zones, you still wont find the good stuff playing the areas out of the so called order.

4) Exactly how do the PVE groups compete? You know once the leader is in an instance you can port to it, right? No phasing issues with that. Further it has been posted that grouping is being worked on to fix the various phasing issues.

I'm a so called casual player. I get invites to dungeons and craiglorn all the time. Maybe you need the right guild, one focused on playing and experiencing the content not cornering the market on stinkhorne to make people pay for your yacht.

What are these many items most players need your version of the so called economy to get? How are players not really empowered by these items you suggest they didnt get and dont have anyways? What are these so called stealth nerfs, what patch, what skill, items, etc? I read the patch notes, do you?

5) PVP isnt my ball-o-way. You get a pass on this one (from me anyways)

OK maybe not, I do really try hard to understand what people are saying and see their logic even if I think it is fertilizer. I am just not getting what your are trying to communicate by a so called mono-pvp system somehow interfering with socialization?

Really, how does just having Cyrodil or whatever single PVP outlet to go gank people (or keeps or whatever) stop you from forming a social/party?

You seem to be trying to argue or tie together multiple, independent, separate thoughts, which like the flavors in an anchovy, okra and roadkill milk shake just shouldn't be together, ever!''

In wrap, how is this NOT a complaining thread, you just attacked with a 100 hit die wall of text with more venting then then the Death Star (post explosion).

I dont see the claimed contradictions, I dont dislike the game play. I do rather enjoy the game world. This is the first world to hold my attention since the bad, nasty, ebil, bottom feeding, wast-of-skin, not even good for organ donation, troll like in every way, sad, and somewhat disliked by me, Board of NCSoft choose to dump COH and refused to allow anyone else to buy it. (or so I have read)

Normally I would not be so -err- intense, however you did seem to want a rebuttal and I do like to help out where I can.

**EB**

Soloeus · August 2014

A lot of great content from everyone! To elaborate on a few things:

I am not elite by any means, but I am not some blithering idiot who can't kill vamps, stands in AOE's, can't kill nightblades, doesn't know how to roll dodge or block, or the other things people say to attack you when they want to attempt to weaken your argument by making you look weak. I am not some scrub who just posts on the forum; I am a V12 Sorc, 36 Templar, 28 Dragonknight, and more. I also have one character in each other faction because I wanted hireling alts and figured I should experience a different angle of the game with them.

1. The "Sets I am talking about" change often enough that once you complete a set you are already looking for the next one. This is problematic because players who aren't able to "keep up" are left behind. At first when the difference in parity between advances is low, this isn't much of an issue. However with frequent additions and changes, it can become an issue in time.

2. The Guild Stores are well intended, I am in 3 great Trade Guilds which maintain 480-500 members. I am also in a casual guild for night owls NA timezone and a good PVP guild that knows how to get things done.

* Advising me to join Trade Guilds, just like advising me to Roll Dodge is pretty insulting because it assumes things about me and argues from presupposition. It is blatantly disrespectful. It is used to make it look like I am someone who doesn't participate in Trade Guilds or Roll Dodge. From there, it diverts the topic into muddy waters of disguised personal attacks.

Many trade guilds are starting to charge weekly fees to players (to raise enough gold to bid for spots). Players who either can't make the donation or don't sell enough items are removed. I won't debate if this is good or bad, but this is the general consequence and its spreading. Hopefully players can keep up with the fees.

3. Many Casual Solo players like to Grind, but they want items scaled to their own level instead of weaker ones they won't find useful. I see this as an issue of permitting Solo Players to do what Group Players are already doing; grind elite loot.

4. I have also engaged in all different types of PVP in Cyrodil. I like finding battles inside dungeons. Even if I get ganked on my way to the Skyshard, I laugh. I also recognize many of the former Bloodthorn, Wabbajack, Dawnbreaker and now Chillrend players.

I could (but won't) name a few who I realized from a death list mod that I have killed over 30 times, and been killed by over 30 times. I wonder if we see each other and charge? Maybe they don't even notice, how would I know? Its fun to think about.

5. I also agree Instanced Content is detrimental to an immersive world. If I had my way, all Group Dungeons would just be harder Public Dungeons where you could just trounce on in and see other players to win or lose with. I find Questing in places like Craglorn to be "Gated" (as another poster above describes).

I want PVP to be fun and offer a variety of ways to select the type of PVP from a menu and be zoned in to the type of PVP you want. Life aint that easy though, eh?

What do you think would reinforce the current Game Systems to encourage Player Participation? (Aside from fixing grouping tools).

I hope I addressed most of the concerns.

Morvoldo · August 2014

wrong topic sorry

Xeres14 · August 2014

Oh the limited skill bar slots contradict the whole skill point system. It's akin to buying an internet service with 50 Mbs down and then limiting your internet at the router to 5 Mbs.

Soloeus · August 2014

Xeres14 wrote: »

Oh the limited skill bar slots contradict the whole skill point system. It's akin to buying an internet service with 50 Mbs down and then limiting your internet at the router to 5 Mbs.

I share this sentiment. I understand its for Console Limitations, but it feels like you first have to "choose" to spend your skill points to get an Ability, then you have to "choose" that ability as one of your five creating a layer of redundancy.

This gets worse with things like Bound Armor, Magelight, Winged Twilight, Clannafear, that are turned on/off. The problem is that when you swap bars you have to have the same ability slotted on the second bar, so you are left with 8 skills instead of 10 if you want Magelight always active or Bound Armor.

This contradicts the system of Grouping.

For a Conjuration Sorcerer this means you have 6 abilities because 2 on both bars are consumed by summons. This is contradictory to playing how you want because you are railroaded away from options you enjoy using. You are effectively deterred from certain playstyles and those who still play in those styles are often shunned from groups.

People think Heavy Armor Stamina Builds are ostracized from groups? Wait til you see the guy with 2 Summons and Bound Armor try to find a group, especially if his main weapon is a bow.

nerevarine1138 · August 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Xeres14 wrote: »

Oh the limited skill bar slots contradict the whole skill point system. It's akin to buying an internet service with 50 Mbs down and then limiting your internet at the router to 5 Mbs.

I share this sentiment. I understand its for Console Limitations, but it feels like you first have to "choose" to spend your skill points to get an Ability, then you have to "choose" that ability as one of your five creating a layer of redundancy.

This gets worse with things like Bound Armor, Magelight, Winged Twilight, Clannafear, that are turned on/off. The problem is that when you swap bars you have to have the same ability slotted on the second bar, so you are left with 8 skills instead of 10 if you want Magelight always active or Bound Armor.

This contradicts the system of Grouping.

For a Conjuration Sorcerer this means you have 6 abilities because 2 on both bars are consumed by summons. This is contradictory to playing how you want because you are railroaded away from options you enjoy using. You are effectively deterred from certain playstyles and those who still play in those styles are often shunned from groups.

People think Heavy Armor Stamina Builds are ostracized from groups? Wait til you see the guy with 2 Summons and Bound Armor try to find a group, especially if his main weapon is a bow.

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it right now.

The limited skill bar has nothing to do with console limitations. The developers were very clear on that system being selected before they finalized console plans.

Your post states the very point of the limited bar while pretending to not get it. The bar forces you to make tactical choices based on the situation. Of course your two-summon-bound-armor bar isn't going to be as effective in a group setting (or maybe it will be if you figure out a way how), but it's going to be highly effective for soloing content. Likewise, your Magelight+AoE skill bar may not be the best for fighting a boss, but that's why you change skills out before specific fights.

The limited bars force people to use their brains and be strategic about their active skill choices. You clearly understand that, because you understand that certain skills are more optimal for certain situations. However, you've reached the conclusion that rather than figure out how to load out your bar for different situations, ZO should just give you WoW-style bars. The result there (as we've all seen) is 100s of buttons clogging up the screen and only 3-4 of them being pressed with any regularity.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · August 2014

It is also the best way to create horizontal progression rather than vertical one.

You may earn more skill points, but you only unlock more possible builds, not more power. It helps lessen the gap between a veteran player and a new player.

Bleakraven · August 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Xeres14 wrote: »

Oh the limited skill bar slots contradict the whole skill point system. It's akin to buying an internet service with 50 Mbs down and then limiting your internet at the router to 5 Mbs.

I share this sentiment. I understand its for Console Limitations, but it feels like you first have to "choose" to spend your skill points to get an Ability, then you have to "choose" that ability as one of your five creating a layer of redundancy.

This gets worse with things like Bound Armor, Magelight, Winged Twilight, Clannafear, that are turned on/off. The problem is that when you swap bars you have to have the same ability slotted on the second bar, so you are left with 8 skills instead of 10 if you want Magelight always active or Bound Armor.

This contradicts the system of Grouping.

For a Conjuration Sorcerer this means you have 6 abilities because 2 on both bars are consumed by summons. This is contradictory to playing how you want because you are railroaded away from options you enjoy using. You are effectively deterred from certain playstyles and those who still play in those styles are often shunned from groups.

People think Heavy Armor Stamina Builds are ostracized from groups? Wait til you see the guy with 2 Summons and Bound Armor try to find a group, especially if his main weapon is a bow.

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it right now.

The limited skill bar has nothing to do with console limitations. The developers were very clear on that system being selected before they finalized console plans.

Your post states the very point of the limited bar while pretending to not get it. The bar forces you to make tactical choices based on the situation. Of course your two-summon-bound-armor bar isn't going to be as effective in a group setting (or maybe it will be if you figure out a way how), but it's going to be highly effective for soloing content. Likewise, your Magelight+AoE skill bar may not be the best for fighting a boss, but that's why you change skills out before specific fights.

The limited bars force people to use their brains and be strategic about their active skill choices. You clearly understand that, because you understand that certain skills are more optimal for certain situations. However, you've reached the conclusion that rather than figure out how to load out your bar for different situations, ZO should just give you WoW-style bars. The result there (as we've all seen) is 100s of buttons clogging up the screen and only 3-4 of them being pressed with any regularity.

Yup. FF14 has tons of windows and abilities you can slot and you can play it on the console just fine. It's a game design decision.

Soloeus · August 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it right now.

The limited skill bar has nothing to do with console limitations. The developers were very clear on that system being selected before they finalized console plans.

Your post states the very point of the limited bar while pretending to not get it. The bar forces you to make tactical choices based on the situation. Of course your two-summon-bound-armor bar isn't going to be as effective in a group setting (or maybe it will be if you figure out a way how), but it's going to be highly effective for soloing content. Likewise, your Magelight+AoE skill bar may not be the best for fighting a boss, but that's why you change skills out before specific fights.

The limited bars force people to use their brains and be strategic about their active skill choices. You clearly understand that, because you understand that certain skills are more optimal for certain situations. However, you've reached the conclusion that rather than figure out how to load out your bar for different situations, ZO should just give you WoW-style bars. The result there (as we've all seen) is 100s of buttons clogging up the screen and only 3-4 of them being pressed with any regularity.

1. I thought it did have to do with Console Conformity. It is a terrible design choice, even with a 1-9 Skill Bar, I would still have to make strategic choices. The difference is that I am forced into always using the same 3 builds no matter what the situation is; and the remaining build possibilities will never work. I will be gimped for using Conjuration in Craglorn or PVP or Vet Dungeons or Group Vet Dungeons. Conjuration CANNOT have its pets POOF OUT when you swap bars, so there is no strategic choice. You have 2 abilities consumed and your build consists of 3 abilities on both bars.

Of course, it would also be problematic if you could just slot Bound Armor, Clannefar, Winged Twilight and Inner Light on both bars without being restrained in some way. However the 1-5 bar doesn't "give choices" it gives you a very limited number of builds that are even capable of working.

2. This is why I feel we are restrained into FOTM builds.
My AoE Bar is: Magelight, Critical Surge, Impulse, Crushing Shock, Crystal Fragments.
My Restoration Bar is: Magelight, Critical Surge, Endless Fury, Crystal Fragments, Blessing of Restoration.

This is the build I started using in Coldharbour and I use it for every single task, period. Sometimes, I do swap out Crystal Fragments on both bars for Volcanic Rune. But this just shows the weakness of 1-5 Bar. The one true build is always optimal and any choice other than this I can make, I gimp myself. This isn't a real choice.

3. And, I don't want hundreds of buttons cluttering up my screen. I just want a 1-9 Bar that lets me actually make choices about my build. In the first example, Bound Armor, Twilight, Clannafer, Magelight reduces max magicka what, 30% or 40%? Having 5 remaining abilities to select but only having 50% of my mana left seems like a more tactical choice to weight out.

I get what you are saying. I have played MMO's since 1998. I have seen about every Skill Bar you could imagine. 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-9 (the most common) and even Darkfall's option of just binding virtually everything. Talk about a mess.

My "complaint" about the 1-5 Skillbar is that it gives less fun than 1-9 and doesn't give you more options because of having to be more careful about choice.

But this is all aside the point: The question is, Would a 1-9 Skillbar discourage or reinforce Game Systems more or less than the current 1-5 Skill Bar? I don't know the answer.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · August 2014

I think not.

I come from darkfall too. I actually loved it more than any other game I played.
Having 100 slots to bind didn't prevent fotm, it just increased the requirement to be fotm.

The same is true for 5to9 difference. It would not just be +16 skill points but also the passives necessary to support them.

The game does throw a very large amount of skillpoints our way. But it is still designed around having a finished build by the level 35. Add in a craft or two and some experimentation and you get finished at 50.

Now on to your question: Would more slots improve gameplay?

Honestly, I don't know. I think not.
I've been theorycrafting many build where I felt I needed "just one more slot" but in practice, i never use all of my abilities. Most abilities really are situational. So a more appropriate question may be:

How many different situations should a single character be prepared for? At what point is it detrimental to group play?

I don't know the answer either, but I can say I feel comfortable with 5+1 bars. Especially since all skill lines have 5 active skills too.