VR14 - Seriously?

Dixiewarbirdb16_ESO · August 2014

I used all my Dreugh wax and spent like 50k on making the rest of my armour gold last night, I wish I had read this first.

Sad face

Srugzal · August 2014

DDuke wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

Yeah, I know, the sources are contradictory on this, but so what? It's the only thing that makes sense. Besides, VETERAN RANKS ARE NOT LEVELS. They are equipment tiers earned by accumulating points.

In certain games, when new, better tier of gear is released via a patch, your previous gear will still remain the second best available. This is not the case with VR Ranks. Similar to other games which release expansions that raise the level cap, every green item achieved past the maximum level (read: Veteran Rank) will be better than your previous hard-earned raid / PvP gear.

So in a way, VR Ranks = Levels. Only difference is that you don't get to pick attribute/skill points.

The changes are to the gear, not to your character. That is the point, and appears to be exactly what you're saying. Calling them "levels" is a mistake as well as misleading.

Attribute points are the only ones which determine level, setting the minimum and maximum attribute values, as well as what tiers of gear (crafted and otherwise) you can access. VR only determines gear; the min/max values do not change, unless the upper limit is increased. So there is no level.

Now, the effect might be as you describe--but that's the point of the gear chase, isn't it? And besides, a purple item at VR-1 will still, most likely, be better than a green item at VR+1. The tiers have always overlapped.

Alll of this is wrong, I was mistaken. Thank you, all of you who have kindly corrected my mistake.

Animus0724 · August 2014

NorthernFury wrote: »

I'm really hoping the new quest lines are not as spirit-crushing as the ones in lower crag. Trying to find groups on the same step/willing to catch the others up was an incredible waste of time.

Agree, I would prefer open quests to be solo while loads of public and vet dungeons to do in groups

Xnemesis · August 2014

Srugzal wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

Yeah, I know, the sources are contradictory on this, but so what? It's the only thing that makes sense. Besides, VETERAN RANKS ARE NOT LEVELS. They are equipment tiers earned by accumulating points.

In certain games, when new, better tier of gear is released via a patch, your previous gear will still remain the second best available. This is not the case with VR Ranks. Similar to other games which release expansions that raise the level cap, every green item achieved past the maximum level (read: Veteran Rank) will be better than your previous hard-earned raid / PvP gear.

So in a way, VR Ranks = Levels. Only difference is that you don't get to pick attribute/skill points.

The changes are to the gear, not to your character. That is the point, and appears to be exactly what you're saying. Calling them "levels" is a mistake as well as misleading.

Attribute points are the only ones which determine level, setting the minimum and maximum attribute values, as well as what tiers of gear (crafted and otherwise) you can access. VR only determines gear; the min/max values do not change, unless the upper limit is increased. So there is no level.

Now, the effect might be as you describe--but that's the point of the gear chase, isn't it? And besides, a purple item at VR-1 will still, most likely, be better than a green item at VR+1. The tiers have always overlapped.

I thought your attribute max caps increase as you go up in VR?

Srugzal · August 2014

EliteZ wrote: »

Edit because I don't know how to delete a duplicated post.

The only way to delete a post is to fill it with bad words and then get someone to complain about it. Then a moderator will come around and delete it for you.

...and hope someone doesn't quote you in the meantime...

Have fun!

Swampster · August 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And since post-VR10 XP is only available in entirely group-content-only then those that don't like grouping simply to level will stop playing at VR10 then.

It's not just a problem for those who choose not to group..

As I alluded to in my previous post, if they carry on with the current model.. ie, stupidly quick level cap increases, and almost entirely group content filling the gap between VR10 (as per your example) and whatever the current cap is means that the content aimed at VR11, 12, 13 etc will no longer be getting run by those pushing for VR14, 15, 16 etc... meaning there's going to be an ever expanding gulf of group content, with very few people to actually group up with relatively speaking.

All of which will make the journey through VR11 & 12 pretty unassailable for anyone who's not already there whether you don't actually mind grouping or not.

DDuke · August 2014

Srugzal wrote: »

The changes are to the gear, not to your character. That is the point, and appears to be exactly what you're saying. Calling them "levels" is a mistake as well as misleading.

I hate to argue, but levels are exactly what they are, except they have less character progression than your regular levels. But we can settle to call them "special levels" if you wish, or "Veteran Ranks".

You do get +10 to all your attributes when leveling up, this happens in VR as well, so they're not only a level (special level, Veteran Rank, whichever you prefer) you are required to wear certain gear.

Srugzal wrote: »

Attribute points are the only ones which determine level, setting the minimum and maximum attribute values, as well as what tiers of gear (crafted and otherwise) you can access. VR only determines gear; the min/max values do not change, unless the upper limit is increased. So there is no level.

Attribute points have nothing to do with what gear tiers you can access (only character level/VR does), though I like the idea! Would be nice to have "requires x points in stamina/magicka/health" to wear certain type of gear. (Would give some purpose to attribute points as well).

Srugzal wrote: »

Now, the effect might be as you describe--but that's the point of the gear chase, isn't it? And besides, a purple item at VR-1 will still, most likely, be better than a green item at VR+1. The tiers have always overlapped.

No, that is not the point of gear chase. Gear chase has a linear structure, you don't get end-game gear, and then just throw it away because everything above your Veteran Rank is better. You get good gear, to be able to get better gear, until an expansion hits, which is when leveling starts again and everything is "new" and exciting. That is how most MMOs work.

And no, purple item at VR1 is exactly as good as a green one at VR3, and worse than anything at VR12.

Srugzal · August 2014

Xnemesis wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

Yeah, I know, the sources are contradictory on this, but so what? It's the only thing that makes sense. Besides, VETERAN RANKS ARE NOT LEVELS. They are equipment tiers earned by accumulating points.

In certain games, when new, better tier of gear is released via a patch, your previous gear will still remain the second best available. This is not the case with VR Ranks. Similar to other games which release expansions that raise the level cap, every green item achieved past the maximum level (read: Veteran Rank) will be better than your previous hard-earned raid / PvP gear.

So in a way, VR Ranks = Levels. Only difference is that you don't get to pick attribute/skill points.

The changes are to the gear, not to your character. That is the point, and appears to be exactly what you're saying. Calling them "levels" is a mistake as well as misleading.

Attribute points are the only ones which determine level, setting the minimum and maximum attribute values, as well as what tiers of gear (crafted and otherwise) you can access. VR only determines gear; the min/max values do not change, unless the upper limit is increased. So there is no level.

Now, the effect might be as you describe--but that's the point of the gear chase, isn't it? And besides, a purple item at VR-1 will still, most likely, be better than a green item at VR+1. The tiers have always overlapped.

I thought your attribute max caps increase as you go up in VR?

Nope. However, ZOS recently raised all of the caps, no doubt in anticipation of the VR increase. I imagine that they'll keep doing that, so it might amount to the same thing.

EDIT: correction, I'm mistaken here. Your stats go up with each VR.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · August 2014

Srugzal wrote: »

The changes are to the gear, not to your character. That is the point, and appears to be exactly what you're saying. Calling them "levels" is a mistake as well as misleading.

Not a mistake at all if you consider that gear is LEVEL gated and so if you're not at the right LEVEL you can't wear it: I can't wear VR10 gear at VR1 I have to LEVEL UP (as the in-game floaty text puts it) in order to do so.

Srugzal · August 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

deathmasterl_ESO wrote: »

Clearly people are missing the point that no where have they said they are getting rid of Veteran Ranks, what they said is they are "Getting rid of Veteran POINTS key word points, you know the thing that you use to lvl up your Veteran Ranks with, and they are changing it to normal XP."

As a quote linked to earlier in this thread shows, a follow-up comment from ZOS clearly said VRs were going to disappear entirely.

I've looked, and see no such link in the thread, though I'm familiar with the quote. Perhaps the poster went back and edited it, who knows. Doesn't matter.

We differ on how to interpret this, however. I would say it's a contradiction that points out that they're a) not communicating about it, or b) the two talking about it don't actually understand what their company is doing, or that c) they keep changing their minds.

None of these alternatives is very inspiring, to put it mildly. But it's just not reasonable to declare anything we've heard so far as definitive.

Srugzal · August 2014

DDuke wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

The changes are to the gear, not to your character. That is the point, and appears to be exactly what you're saying. Calling them "levels" is a mistake as well as misleading.

I hate to argue, but levels are exactly what they are, except they have less character progression than your regular levels. But we can settle to call them "special levels" if you wish, or "Veteran Ranks".

You do get +10 to all your attributes when leveling up, this happens in VR as well, so they're not only a level (special level, Veteran Rank, whichever you prefer) you are required to wear certain gear.

Srugzal wrote: »

Attribute points are the only ones which determine level, setting the minimum and maximum attribute values, as well as what tiers of gear (crafted and otherwise) you can access. VR only determines gear; the min/max values do not change, unless the upper limit is increased. So there is no level.

Attribute points have nothing to do with what gear tiers you can access (only character level/VR does), though I like the idea! Would be nice to have "requires x points in stamina/magicka/health" to wear certain type of gear. (Would give some purpose to attribute points as well).

Srugzal wrote: »

Now, the effect might be as you describe--but that's the point of the gear chase, isn't it? And besides, a purple item at VR-1 will still, most likely, be better than a green item at VR+1. The tiers have always overlapped.

No, that is not the point of gear chase. Gear chase has a linear structure, you don't get end-game gear, and then just throw it away because everything above your Veteran Rank is better. You get good gear, to be able to get better gear, until an expansion hits, which is when leveling starts again and everything is "new" and exciting. That is how most MMOs work.

And no, purple item at VR1 is exactly as good as a green one at VR3, and worse than anything at VR12.

Thanks, this was helpful. I stand corrected. I've edited most of my original mistaken posts, but there are so many, no doubt I missed some.

Xandryah · August 2014

i have been playing my main toon since official launch and i'm still only V3.6

it's really hard to level up in general

i can't hardly imagine to even consider playing another toon at this point...
i have two other toons waiting for the tides to change...

the levelling system certainly does not foster playing/starting other toons

Maybe experience boosts like in swtor would help or experience perks that can be purchased via skill points... (like legacy perk in swtor)

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO · August 2014

Those who like the raise.

Has there been any difference in gameplay for you since VR1??? I mean besides the bigger numbers.
Did anything change? Better AI, more (dangerous) traps, anything combat or non combat related?
I bet no.

And thats why we dont need levelcap raise. Its the same game playing exactly the same way.
If you cant find joy in playing the game and you need the "getting more powerful" something is seriously wrong.

There is no difference between hitting a 100hp mob with 10dmg and hitting a 1000hp mob with 100 damage.

If ZOS would be sure that their content is fun to play they wouldnt need to raise VR because people woulf play because its fun to play.
I guess they know their content is bad, so they need to raise the cap to give people at least some small reason to play that new content.

G0ku · August 2014

Well I am VR12 for quite a while and leveling an alt isn´t really fun for. Funny thing is I surely would be at least VR25 by now if they wouldn´t have the levels capped at VR12. All those XP won´t go in my champion points I assume.

So basically I see this more as an advantage for the upcoming champion system. But as I understood it, they told us they would stop the VR System and use the zodiac-type of system we know from Skyrim (that´s what I thought I understood, not native english, from the QuakeCon video).

What really bothers me, nah pisses me off is: Why can´t they tell us in a precise, well-worded, maybe even in all languages this game is supporting what we have to expect from future patches only regarding the fundamental mechanics of the game?

Don´t they know for themselves where they are heading or what kind of mindset is behind this move? Is my english so bad that I totally misunderstood? I can live with any kind of system they will implement, because I love the ES lore, but I really want to know what to expect. I don´t need to know future content, but things like the system of char levels are fundamental for game imo, and shouldn´t be changed around without giving players a decent time of preparation for it. I am very disappointed...

Arabth · August 2014

As Just raising to 14 and give a zone or 2 for it is not a problem for me the problem is that the zone is a copy of a dead zone that I personly and what i have seen few ppl has done to the end and less and less ppl are doing it all that means that 2 more lvls that you only get thru grinding and going dungions (as in all other post i have comment on the last days i will again say pvp is not working for a lot of my frends and me as dcing is every 20min and 10min to get in so not a way to lvl) if it had given us a questing zones with quest that you were abel to do solo and maby 2-3 solo dungions and some public ones i would be fine but as of now i cant see my self grinding my 2 vet 12 up to 14, as i have a dk that i do mostly like to tank and dw dps i dont get aa slots and as the templar yea im heal but still only 1 or 2 per aa max so no go there too so i feel that If i like to get to end cap as I do normaly do, i will now have to grind and that whats i have liked with this game when i started you can get to your lvl without grinding as it was loads load of quest and even if 1 or 10 was bugged it was not that big of a deal still loads ofther quest to do. but now at this lvl not a single thing to do

and sorry if the wording and like that are not perfect english are not and will never be my first language

Tavore1138 · August 2014

These new levels seem rushed as if to meet some demand I have yet to see expressed openly anywhere, while some do not object to these new levels no-one has been shouting for them.

It makes me wonder who is asking the devs to do this at all? Management? Some of these 'elite' guilds that get back door access?

Also... crafting? Are we just sticking with void stone & the equivalents or will they take the time to add new materials and armour designs? Will we get higher level runes, potions and provisions? If not, why not?

The whole level increase seems rushed and unnecessary.

lathbury · August 2014

Well I'm as pissed as the next guy my new sets I crafted after the last update will now need redoing except I can't cause aether gear. They should have left this until they sorted the dungeon scaling to group leader thing sorted that way all the trials would still be viable. It seems now we are going from 2 trials to one as I don't see many running the others for gear to deconstruct.

Meuh · August 2014

lathbury wrote: »

Well I'm as pissed as the next guy my new sets I crafted after the last update will now need redoing except I can't cause aether gear. They should have left this until they sorted the dungeon scaling to group leader thing sorted that way all the trials would still be viable. It seems now we are going from 2 trials to one as I don't see many running the others for gear to deconstruct.

So true. They are ruining their game doing that.
When VR10 was the cap, we had 3 dungeons and tons of gears to farm, this was actually fun to do.
When VR12 came they ruined this dungeons and didnt give some in exchange, Crypt of heart came later with nothing in.
Now with VR14 we will have 0 dungeons and only one trial to do.

WTF ZOS, who is leading you this way. Game is full of low level dungeons and low level gears. Is that so hard to raise them to the cap so we can finally enjoy this game. Stop *** your customers and start doing what they need FFS.

kitsinni · August 2014

I would just like to know what VR14 adds to the game? Everything else in this update could be identical with VR12 and no one would notice a difference.

Meuh · August 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

I would just like to know what VR14 adds to the game? Everything else in this update could be identical with VR12 and no one would notice a difference.

New veteran ranks only make useless old veteran content. Everytime they raise the cap, they destroy old content making end game content more and more empty.

I only played GW2 as MMO. And in this game ALL dungeons can be done at the max level, making end game content significantly better then TESO. And in 2 years they never raised max cap, Why ? cause it will destroy endgame...

You really have to stop raising cap every 2 months. You have to wait at least a year so everybody can farm what they want,enjoy their rewards. And then raise the cap by 10, so you really add hard leveling to do, and not a day of grinding to get 2 poor veteran ranks.

I don't know what is happening in their heads and why they are killing a game which already had hard times, but it makes me really sad.
Simple things can make this game awesome but they still make the wrong choice. Tired to pay for that.

Srugzal · August 2014

G0ku wrote: »

Well I am VR12 for quite a while and leveling an alt isn´t really fun for. Funny thing is I surely would be at least VR25 by now if they wouldn´t have the levels capped at VR12. All those XP won´t go in my champion points I assume.

So basically I see this more as an advantage for the upcoming champion system. But as I understood it, they told us they would stop the VR System and use the zodiac-type of system we know from Skyrim (that´s what I thought I understood, not native english, from the QuakeCon video).

What really bothers me, nah pisses me off is: Why can´t they tell us in a precise, well-worded, maybe even in all languages this game is supporting what we have to expect from future patches only regarding the fundamental mechanics of the game?

Don´t they know for themselves where they are heading or what kind of mindset is behind this move? Is my english so bad that I totally misunderstood? I can live with any kind of system they will implement, because I love the ES lore, but I really want to know what to expect. I don´t need to know future content, but things like the system of char levels are fundamental for game imo, and shouldn´t be changed around without giving players a decent time of preparation for it. I am very disappointed...

Massively insightful, this. Thank you. The part I put in boldface is especially telling, and no, there is no problem with your English.

The problem is that the fundamental mechanics that you refer to have been broken since release. What will they be like when they finally get them "right?" Well, that's anybody's guess.

kitsinni · August 2014

I feel for all the people that have not hit V12 yet it is already extremely hard to find people to do the V10-V12 content now, I can only imagine how empty the current craglorn will be with a V12-14 portion.

crislevin · August 2014

Dixiewarbirdb16_ESO wrote: »

I used all my Dreugh wax and spent like 50k on making the rest of my armour gold last night, I wish I had read this first.

Sad face

learn from it! don't ever buy, use wax, ever again!

kitsinni wrote: »

I feel for all the people that have not hit V12 yet it is already extremely hard to find people to do the V10-V12 content now, I can only imagine how empty the current craglorn will be with a V12-14 portion.

lol, don't be, I am v9 and perfectly content. I long ago understood what kind of thing ZoS is doing, and decided not to fall into it.

For people at lower levels, I'm sure many of them know the Craglorn grinding exploit and intentionally decided not to bother, so, v12, v14, then v16....v(n+2)., doesn't mean much for them.

I actually feel for the v12 people out there, spending time and money doing boring things to reach the highest level, and making perfect armours and weapons, just to get shafted in a month.

Grileenor · August 2014

Where is the point in leveling up in VT regions anyway, when they lift the cap every two months. I don't like it. It is way too fast as it is now. A levelcap shouldn't be touched more than once per year.

neueregel · August 2014

Every MMO I have played since 1998 has had these issues. Their player base reaches a cap, they add content and the level cap is raised in the process to meet the new content requirement, rinse and repeat. The last MMO I played, I was always making new armor/weapons... that was the fun part of the game for most of us. in that game though, we usually sold our old gear to players that thought it was uber for their level and so on... In this game, I just crunch the stuff that I thought two weeks ago was uber... All those upgrade mats reduced to almost nothing really. I am not sure if this is just my experience or not, but I never see anyone selling old gear on any channel I am on. It may have to do with other dynamics I haven't thought through... like players wanting certain styles/traits on certain items... your gear my not match and so on... This game doesn't have to be like another of course... I just enjoyed that in the last game I played and it made the economy more significant. This economy in this game is very limited IMO.

If they added new content, and there was no reward by leveling, what would be the point of participating in the new content? I have been VR12 for 2 months now and I am bored. I only really play one zone, the Rift, that has the highest level mobs/loot without group play. I know every inch of that zone now... where all the chests are, static resources and so on... I look forward to a new area to explore... But if I go through more zones, I would like to level in the process...

One nice idea would be if you can essentially play more high level zones at the cap level so you are not tied to such a limited area to continue playing... It would also be nice to be able to go back to lower zones, and get the loot table that exists in the max zones mixed in with the current zone loot tables. This way you can continue to get the loot you want (maxed) and a mixture of the current loot table for access to these items as well. All while not being tied down to that one last zone. This would open the whole map back up to more realistic, enthusiastic back play.The mobs would have to adjust to your player level as well as resources, not sure that is possible in the existing game mechanics though...

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · August 2014

neueregel wrote: »

Every MMO I have played since 1998 has had these issues. Their player base reaches a cap, they add content and the level cap is raised in the process to meet the new content requirement, rinse and repeat.

Which of those MMOs raised the level cap EVERY THREE MONTHS?

Or expanded the crafting tiers to make everyone do another tedious grind to unlock them?

DDuke · August 2014

neueregel wrote: »

If they added new content, and there was no reward by leveling, what would be the point of participating in the new content? I have been VR12 for 2 months now and I am bored. I only really play one zone, the Rift, that has the highest level mobs/loot without group play. I know every inch of that zone now... where all the chests are, static resources and so on... I look forward to a new area to explore... But if I go through more zones, I would like to level in the process...

What if they just added new content that was more difficult, but gave better rewards ?

Everyone would be happy.

Rammi · August 2014

To be honest when i saw the vet increase my immediate reaction was disappointment. I just put a bunch of time and energy into a Legendary set of armor + weapons that come 1.4 will need to be upgraded again.

Its a joke! I don't have the time and i get no pleasure out of gear grinding at all.

At this point ZOS are making it easy for me to go to ArchAge and start again.

crislevin · August 2014

neueregel wrote: »

I am not sure if this is just my experience or not, but I never see anyone selling old gear on any channel I am on. It may have to do with other dynamics I haven't thought through

Its mostly because the "Bound on xxx" thing, many many many items in this game will bound to account upon equip, dye, convert. etc, etc.

They may have their reasons for every Bound on xxx design, but they are over-doing it in general.

Obscure · August 2014

Rammi wrote: »

To be honest when i saw the vet increase my immediate reaction was disappointment. I just put a bunch of time and energy into a Legendary set of armor + weapons that come 1.4 will need to be upgraded again.

Its a joke! I don't have the time and i get no pleasure out of gear grinding at all.

At this point ZOS are making it easy for me to go to ArchAge and start again.

Plenty of other things to play while ZOS gets their *** together. Steam winter sale is coming up, Destiny goes live for the console players, Dragon Age 3 will hit in October, the new Super Smash Bros. is coming out for DS in October (Wii U later this year), and the Dark Souls 2 Crown of The Iron King expansion hits in like a week.

Great time to be a gamer...not so great time to be a lazy low quality game developer. Well unless your game is deliberately lazy and low quality like Goat Simulator, but then that sort of ironic bad game design is deemed a feature rather than the overt expression of how bad you are at game design. Maybe that's what ZOS is going for. Relentless unrewarding level cap raises every few months coupled with crippling bugs is a feature! Hurray!