Are the "Good" daedra too nice? potential spoilers in discussion

BBSooner · July 2014

Armitas wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

andre.roques.3b14_ESO wrote: »

No, pretty sure I am able to label good and evil using my own moral compass.

Right the only way is to inject it externally. Tamriel doesn't provide an internal non ambiguous foundation for good or evil.

There is tons of recognition for good and evil in TES, it's just that the way all beings are written there are no pure sources of either. However acts for any degree of morality can be cited and recognized by NPCs as that degree.

It's cited, but what is good or evil is ambiguous because those aedra are caught up in the Euthyphro dilemma.

I would agree if the Aedra were considered a pure source of good, but even they have had bickering and sought revenge, which is morally ambiguous. So its less about example and more about the people acknowledging good and evil.

If there are no pure sources then what does good/evil refer to? What is it's foundation? (in tamriel)

The cultures hold to morality compasses for themselves. Hence their justice systems. There are also moral tendencies that all the cultures share. These are sources for internal good/evil. The deities are just as complex morally as the mortals.

Evergnar · July 2014

Everybody is too nice and/or helpless in ESO imo (npc's not players). Except maybe a few dunmer.

isengrimb16_ESO · July 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

andre.roques.3b14_ESO wrote: »

No, pretty sure I am able to label good and evil using my own moral compass.

Right the only way is to inject it externally. Tamriel doesn't provide an internal non ambiguous foundation for good or evil.

There is tons of recognition for good and evil in TES, it's just that the way all beings are written there are no pure sources of either. However acts for any degree of morality can be cited and recognized by NPCs as that degree.

It's cited, but what is good or evil is ambiguous because those aedra are caught up in the Euthyphro dilemma.

I would agree if the Aedra were considered a pure source of good, but even they have had bickering and sought revenge, which is morally ambiguous. So its less about example and more about the people acknowledging good and evil.

If there are no pure sources then what does good/evil refer to? What is it's foundation?

Personal ethics as opposed to .. religious morals (and religious morals are just as variable as ethics are, because not all religions share the same morals. And hell, people WITHIN a religion, or even within a sect, may interpret those morals differently.)

I agree that in that case they would either be from personal ethics, and ambiguous/subjective or heavily platonic but non prescriptive.

Yes, I've noticed a real grab-bag of ethics from many NPCs involved in quests, and many times we're asked to call upon our own to make a decision. Phaer, for instance.
Or the newly freed Argonian slaves who weren't happy with just being freed, they had to take vengeance, too. That smacks really closely of actual historical instances, that I guess we can't go into, but let's just say that similar behaviour on the part of freed slaves caused the creation of a group that is still around and very, very unpopular and highly disliked, whose purpose probably ran its course ages ago - but again, that's a matter of opinion and ethics.)

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you made the right decision in letting someone go, or not.

Whatever you're hinting at sounds more than a little racist. Sometimes it's better not to make these kinds of comments at all.

The Aedra and Daedra have their own morality. Not quite Eldritch Being/Cthulhian thought processes, but in that direction.

The game parallel in the example I gave, I found both the Argonian "vengeance squad" and the woman who wants protection from them equally despicable. Happy?

Armitas · July 2014

Is there any lore regarding where the aedra/daedra came from. Are they "a se" (from oneself) or did they come from something else?

Anvos · July 2014

Armitas wrote: »

Is there any lore regarding where the aedra/daedra came from. Are they "a se" (from oneself) or did they come from something else?

There is a creation myth or two but its hard to tell how valid they are since their accounting events that predate the physical world and may possibly be more the guess work of the aedra and deadra on how they came to be.

BBSooner · July 2014

Armitas wrote: »

Is there any lore regarding where the aedra/daedra came from. Are they "a se" (from oneself) or did they come from something else?

Well, if were to believe in CHIM and Lorkan's manipulation of aetherius to create mundus, everything is simply the dream of the godhead (which is never formally explained in detail) and everything poofed in to existence from the dream. From there, the Et'Ada were created (aedra/daedra) and time began.

To go on further, CHIM is the pure realization of this which allows the manipulation of the dream (Tiber Septim altering Cyrodil's past present and future from a tropical jungle to temperate grasslands).

Edit: A lot of the lore gets confusing towards the deep ends, especially on what you consider canon after MK left Bethesda.

Armitas · July 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

andre.roques.3b14_ESO wrote: »

No, pretty sure I am able to label good and evil using my own moral compass.

Right the only way is to inject it externally. Tamriel doesn't provide an internal non ambiguous foundation for good or evil.

There is tons of recognition for good and evil in TES, it's just that the way all beings are written there are no pure sources of either. However acts for any degree of morality can be cited and recognized by NPCs as that degree.

It's cited, but what is good or evil is ambiguous because those aedra are caught up in the Euthyphro dilemma.

I would agree if the Aedra were considered a pure source of good, but even they have had bickering and sought revenge, which is morally ambiguous. So its less about example and more about the people acknowledging good and evil.

If there are no pure sources then what does good/evil refer to? What is it's foundation? (in tamriel)

The cultures hold to morality compasses for themselves. Hence their justice systems. There are also moral tendencies that all the cultures share. These are sources for internal good/evil. The deities are just as complex morally as the mortals.

That would be an ambiguous foundation... I guess I thought you were trying to say there was a non ambiguous foundation.

Thanks, looking up CHIM now.

Armitas · July 2014

Ok so it looks like there was Anu and Padomay which were the aspect of stasis and change. By their interplay Nir came into existence and time began. By Anu Nir gave birth to the 12 worlds of creation. Padomay sought to destroy creation and partly succeeded, but Anu rescued the rest and took himself and Padomay outside of time.

The mingled blood of Anu and Padomay became the Aedra.

If I were to guess Anu is matter and Padomay is time, and their mingling is the 4 dimensional reality of time and space.

CheesyDaedra · July 2014

For all we know Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon are the "true" "bad" Daedra, since their spheres are Domination and Destruction respectively, the other Daedra just pass their time in the Aurbis having fun with us mortals, or using us for their own schemes related to their spheres.

Panda244 · July 2014

Daedra are neither good nor evil, easily seen by when Mehrunes invades Tamriel in the Oblivion Crisis and when he saves Nirn by stalling Alduin for his own plans. As far as Daedra and Aedra go. Aedra are do jack diddly squat, and help you. Once. Daedra, please you get on their good side and you're going to get more help from them than you do from instructions on the back of a pancake box.

isengrimb16_ESO · July 2014

DaedricCheese wrote: »

For all we know Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon are the "true" "bad" Daedra, since their spheres are Domination and Destruction respectively, the other Daedra just pass their time in the Aurbis having fun with us mortals, or using us for their own schemes related to their spheres.

Yeah. I kind of enjoyed Clavicus Vile in Skyrim; when he asked me what wish I wanted, I wished for the war to end. He replied,

"Oh, if I had my full power, that would be so easy ... I'd just wipe out every living thing in Skyrim. Poof! No more war. Wouldn't that be wonderful?"

"er ..." Now, I can't really argue with his logic. His ethics maybe, but not his logic.

I mean, true peace and lack of bloodshed only exists on lifeless planets, after all ....

dsalter · July 2014

we can all agree Aedra and Daedra are selfish. they want what they want and will reward those that make it happen. sounds like they are "all bad" by our logic

phaneub17_ESO · July 2014

When you're an immortal being with a lot of power to create or change, you get pretty bored too after a few thousand years. To you life is long and an experience to remember; to them you are nothing more than a blink of an eye and along comes another to take your place. Aedra have the power to actually create while the Daedra only have the power to change what is already there.

Let's say a room in your home is infested with a lot of cockroaches, what do you? You get a bug bomb to sprays poison into the room. You don't think twice about your actions, the cockroaches on the other hand say if they were sentient like us would see you as an evil entity bringing mass genocide onto them. Are you really being evil?

gurluasb16_ESO · July 2014

I wouldn't call them selfish, maybe some, but not all of them.
Some Daedra, Azura in particular, have acted selfless.

And the Aedra...Some have definitely acted selfless. Other than Meridia you have all the Aedra who sacrificed themselves to let Mundus survive.

elias.stormneb18_ESO · August 2014

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

Daedra aren't evil. Some are considered evil because they do dark acts towards us. Also Meridia is not even a Daedra. She's actually an Aedra as she participated in the creation of Mundus and left alongside Magnus, she's spawned from Anu, not Padomay like most Daedra we know. (Most Anuic spirits who did not sacrifice themselves in Mundus went to Aetherius, while Padomaic spirits are in Oblivion)

But she carved her own realm of light within Oblivion.

No one knows if Meridia is an Aedra or Daedra exept for Meridia herself and she seems to consider herself a Daedra. But she did not help in the creation of Mundus. She was helping both the Aedra and Daedra at one point. But when the Aedra found out they threw her out of their order before the creation of Mundus had begun.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO · August 2014

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

Daedra aren't evil. Some are considered evil because they do dark acts towards us. Also Meridia is not even a Daedra. She's actually an Aedra as she participated in the creation of Mundus and left alongside Magnus, she's spawned from Anu, not Padomay like most Daedra we know. (Most Anuic spirits who did not sacrifice themselves in Mundus went to Aetherius, while Padomaic spirits are in Oblivion)

But she carved her own realm of light within Oblivion.

This is true, however, Meridia in Skyrim had clearly had her personality shaped by her time in spent in Oblivion. She was arrogant, rude, and demanding. In ESO, she really sounded more like an avatar or Mara or Dibella (two kind, loving divines), which felt wrong. I don't think they did a very good job with her dialogue or her voice actor in this game.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO · August 2014

Evergnar wrote: »

Everybody is too nice and/or helpless in ESO imo (npc's not players). Except maybe a few dunmer.

Yep.

Stranglehands · August 2014

Armitas wrote: »

If I were to guess Anu is matter and Padomay is time, and their mingling is the 4 dimensional reality of time and space.

I like that idea. It reminds me of the heat death of the universe.
I always thought of the dark brotherhood as being extremist nihilists in some sense, believing that when they assassinate someone they rescue them from on of the many false, incomplete states of being in Aetherius or Oblivion, and giving them the gift of becoming nothing in the Void (Padomay's domain), as though they believe existence itself to be an indecent lie and non-existence to be the truth

Flexar · August 2014

Meridia was definitely good, but she certainly wasn't nice.

She lies to you about her identity the moment you meet in order to manipulate you (and only talks incredibly slowly, but that's just annoying), and she is prepared to sacrifice you and your allies, even King Laloriaran, who is easily her most devout followers, and doesn't let you know of the danger until it's too late to turn back. She also encouraged Sees-All-Colours to murder Jofnir.

As for Azura, she seems more interested in getting back at Vaermina than helping you, but she's not as bad as Meridia.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

As others have said it isn't as simple as Daedra = Evil and Aedra = Good.

Aedra were involved in creating Nirn, and because they imbued part of their strength into the world can be killed.

Daedra were not involved in creating Nirn, never surrender any of their strength and are therefore still immortal.

That's the only difference. Oh that and the weaker Aedra became the mortals (elves mostly).

There are good, bad, and neutral members of both groups.

Humans are supposedly related to the giants, and come from Atmora. Humans are presumably the result of Shor as well, an Aedra. Redgards might actually have a completely separate origin via Yokuda. As the story goes, the original humans had long lives the same as elves, but Shor's death effected them deeply. (I can't remember the source here). Long story short, I'm not entirely sure its so easy to clearly dilineate the origin of any of the intelligent races. All we have is the propaganda in the various books, with the faint odor of truth to them, but no real substance to grasp.

=/=

On a completely different topic, I must say I can't really trust Azura, and I never could. Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah are the supposed 'good daedra' of the Chimer/Dunmer faith predating the Tribunal, and concurrent with Ashlander tradition. Mephala and Boethiah are both utterly contemptible, and when you get down to it, Azura wants to siphon off the souls of weaker beings. She gives prophesy, and foresees the future. I've always got this nagging suspicion that Azura is simply smarter than the other ones, and has the long game in mind.

Meridia on the other hand is a bit bossy, but seems to hold to the same ideals of Stuhn/Stendarr, the shield brother of Shor/Lorkhan. It also is interesting that she was an Aedra who carved out a home in the middle of Oblivion. One almost has to wonder if she's a part of the Aedric plan all along? Is it quite possible that Shor and Auriel were actually on the same side, that quite possibly Shor let Auriel kill him for some divine purpose unbeknownst to mortals, no matter how high and mighty they might think themselves (Altmer, Dwemer, etc).

Beyond the two 'Daedra' that are considered decent by many (Azura and Meridia) there are strange examples in Malacath and Sheogorath. Malacath was Trinimac, and as Trinimac he was the right hand of Auriel, a representative of strength and justice. The interesting thing about this is that whatever Boethiah did to him twisted him something good, but one thing remained, he really didn't like the other Daedra. His weapon immediately banishes any daedra that is touched by it. In all one is left wondering exactly what his deal is. Next you have Sheogorath, who was Jyggalyg, a creature of extreme Order. The madness was again something weighted upon him by other Daedra. Again, what exactly does this mean?

In short, I have to say the lines between Aedra and Daedra can be blurry, despite whatever elven propaganda lingers out there about the et'Ada being their ancestors. Some how, in some way I think Chim has a lot to do with the oddities in these figures and others.

AshySamurai · August 2014

TL;DR. In my opinion mostly daedra are not bad (not everyone wants to enslave all humanity). Mostly they are harmless. I'd even say that some are very cool, like hermeus mora. As I can remember they mostly just having fun.

Magdalina · August 2014

Wait, Meridia is too nice?!

That b...bad woman sent whole city of her followers pretty much literally to hell when they were begging her to help. All for her future grand plans. Granted, these plans might have worked for the good and benefit of all, but all my respect for her vanished.when I found out Hollow City story.

Now I'm completely settled in my opinion that all these semigods are just power-hungry b...bad creatures playing their games at expense of human lives:)

AlexDougherty · August 2014

AshySamurai wrote: »

TL;DR. In my opinion mostly daedra are not bad (not everyone wants to enslave all humanity). Mostly they are harmless. I'd even say that some are very cool, like hermeus mora. As I can remember they mostly just having fun.

Actually they are mostly harmful.

Firstly most Daedra are not princes, they are the Scamps/Clanfears/Dremora/Daedroth/etc. These will kill you as soon as look at you, unless they are bound.

Secondly even the Dadric Princes are mostly harmful.
Sheogorath causes people to go mad, for fun.
Hermeaus Mora releases knowledge into the world that is dangerous, this often sends them mad, or kills them. Not to mention his schemes in the Dragonborn DLC were not benign/neutral.
Mehrunes Dagon will cause his followers to die if it gains him a slight edge, and in Oblivion he was torturing the souls of those followers.
Malacanth enforces a brutal code which keeps Orcs as savages.
Hircine will hunt mortals for fun.
Molag Bal will brutalise and kill for no reason.
Boethiah is deceiving, and causes her followers to betray each other, doing more harm.
Mephala is constantly scheming, and does no good.

Nocturnal is neutral and does neither good nor evil in the long term, but at least she bargains fairly.

Azura is probably the nicest Daedra, and actually cares for her followers, with her distaste for the undead her only significant foible.
Meridia is one of the nicer Daedra, and despite the hollow city story, is one of the few who does good. But Hollow city story destroys her credibility, and exposes a nasty side to her.

As you can see, the Daedra are mostly harmful to mortals. Best avoided all in all.

Carnagan · August 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

(Tiber Septim altering Cyrodil's past present and future from a tropical jungle to temperate grasslands)

Sigh... This didn't happen. Even the quotes about the land being changed don't say who changed the land.

gurluasb16_ESO · August 2014

I do still believe Meridia is an Aedra due to her form and her abilities. She wields the Anuic light for instance. Meridia is hating all forms of Undead on a fanatical level, and she is also willing to make sacrifices for the better good. Furthermore, we know that no Daedra participated in the creation of Nirn at all, they all rejected.

The reason why I believe she is an Aedra, other than her use of the Anuic light, is because she has creativity. No Padomaic Daedra has creativity, only the Aedra, and the mortals who descend from them has it. She also left alongside Magnus, but chose or was forced to not enter Aetherius. We do not know why, but I personally suspect it was because Meridia wanted to fight the Daedra like Molag Bal, because they disrupted the energy of life. She is also willing to pull an entire city of her followers into Coldharbour to strike a blow against Molag Bal.

And she destroyed Abagarlas, because it followed Molag Bal. So basically, while she is not evil, and she cares for her followers...She has a fanatic hate against Undead and will make sacrifices to stop her enemies. Unlike other Padomaic Daedra though (Except for Azura), she will not treat her followers as puppets, and she honors them when she does see no other way than to sacrifice them.

That's my take on it at any rate.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Exegesis_of_Merid-Nunda

And finally, do not forget. Aedra are not totally good either. Anuic Et'ada represent Order, Stasis in the Chaos. Padomaic Et'ada represents chaos, change, alteration.

BBSooner · August 2014

Armitas wrote: »

Ok so it looks like there was Anu and Padomay which were the aspect of stasis and change. By their interplay Nir came into existence and time began. By Anu Nir gave birth to the 12 worlds of creation. Padomay sought to destroy creation and partly succeeded, but Anu rescued the rest and took himself and Padomay outside of time.

The mingled blood of Anu and Padomay became the Aedra.

If I were to guess Anu is matter and Padomay is time. Their mingling is the 4 dimensional reality of time and space.

Sort of, and as far as I understand it (and how much a reader accepts MKs post employment writing as canon) Anu was thought up by the Godhead, and mantled it through Amaranth.

Carnagan wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

(Tiber Septim altering Cyrodil's past present and future from a tropical jungle to temperate grasslands)

Sigh... This didn't happen. Even the quotes about the land being changed don't say who changed the land.

Agreed, it's speculation. I should mark it as such. However there are no definitive sources as to the exact situation. So it's less "this didn't happen" and more "it's one of many possibilities".

Are the "Good" daedra too nice? ***potential spoilers in discussion***

Are the "Good" daedra too nice? potential spoilers in discussion