[removed]

istateres · August 2014

Maybe those (Cabinets / desks, etc.) should be instanced the same way as resource nodes. {I always thought they were! How come I "find" empty cabinets etc?)

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

istateres wrote: »

Maybe those (Cabinets / desks, etc.) should be instanced the same way as resource nodes. {I always thought they were! How come I "find" empty cabinets etc?)

that would suck. No one would get anything if they had to fight others for containers. It is working fine.

The empty containers are just ZOS personally flipping you the bird.

kitsinni · August 2014

I'm pretty sure they are fine with how it is and plan to balance it with the justice system. You can continue to try to search those containers but be prepared to deal with the consequences if caught. It is a bit silly that you can walk in to someones shop and take something out of their dresser and they don't react, but that will change soon enough.

Kvasir Silverpaw · August 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

While farming for items is part of the game, logging out to reset container timers seems like an exploit. I highly doubt the developers were like 'Let's give these items a timer before they spawn again, but if the player logs out and comes back, it will reset'. That little detail was discovered later as a way to go around the developers intent, and is an exploit.

Because in ESO everything someone doesn't personally like is an exploit!

AMEN

Nestor · August 2014

lordrichter wrote: »

There is already an army of hoarders logging in and out constantly as they switch between mule alts. Just logging in and out a few times per hour is not going to be noticed.

And, really to farm a city, you will be spending about 5 to 10 minutes each time you log in.

KitLightning · August 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Ok, so I guess the game was designed with the intent that we sign in and out multiple times to get rare things. Hard to believe a forums moderator signed off on this, but whatever. Probably the one time exploiters got the green light to abuse faulty game mechanics, but if you have the time then whatever floats your boat.

I think what you meant to say was "Sorry I was obviously wrong and spoke out of place".

No he didn't! The players are directly attempting to bypass the set timer by logging in and out, which is an exploit of game-mechanics that the timer is there to prevent farming of chests etc., by a single character. Remember that it wasn't enough in the first place to have timers on chests that was accessible to all characters in a zone, so the objects in question was instanced to the character instead. I find it amusing that you cannot see that that is not an exploit of game-mechanic, though equally amusing that the development have set a reset on those objects since its a direct approval of farming those instances which inevitably will cause more load on the hosts due to reloading the profiles, again and again.

kitsinni · August 2014

KitLightning wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Ok, so I guess the game was designed with the intent that we sign in and out multiple times to get rare things. Hard to believe a forums moderator signed off on this, but whatever. Probably the one time exploiters got the green light to abuse faulty game mechanics, but if you have the time then whatever floats your boat.

I think what you meant to say was "Sorry I was obviously wrong and spoke out of place".

No he didn't! The players are directly attempting to bypass the set timer by logging in and out, which is an exploit of game-mechanics that the timer is there to prevent farming of chests etc., by a single character. Remember that it wasn't enough in the first place to have timers on chests that was accessible to all characters in a zone, so the objects in question was instanced to the character instead. I find it amusing that you cannot see that that is not an exploit of game-mechanic, though equally amusing that the development have set a reset on those objects since its a direct approval of farming those instances which inevitably will cause more load on the hosts due to reloading the profiles, again and again.

Ok I will take your word for it over the exact words of the ZoS employee who said it was not.

UrQuan · August 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I can't argue against what the moderator said,

And yet that's exactly what you're doing...

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And the argument (mostly) being presented here is that because you can do this, because they don't prevent you from doing this, because this is not an exploit because they don't prevent you from doing this, that it must, by default, be what the Dev's intended.

No, the argument being presented is that ZOS has explicitly said that this is working as intended and that it is not an exploit. The exact quote is right here in this thread, along with a link to the thread where this was posted.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

It's not spelled out, so it's a judgement call. Plain and simple.

It is spelled out, you just don't want to accept that you're wrong. Plain and simple.

For the record, I don't do any of this relog farming because I can't be bothered. I spend enough time logging in and out between all of my characters for other reasons. When I'm not in the middle of questing my characters sit in banks, and even though those banks are some of the better places to do this relog farming, most of the time when I'm logging in and out between my characters I can't even be bothered to check the containers that are right there. I prefer to spend more time actually playing and questing. That doesn't give me (or anyone else) the right to call people exploiters for doing this when ZOS has come out and explicitly said that this is working as intended and is not an exploit.

purple-magicb16_ESO · August 2014

lordrichter wrote: »

I think the issue is not the farming but the logging in and logging out repeatedly in order to get rare drops.

If you are logging in and out every minute, or faster, then I could see them having an issue because this will hit their system harder and could potentially impact performance of the server as a whole.

There is already an army of hoarders logging in and out constantly as they switch between mule alts. Just logging in and out a few times per hour is not going to be noticed.

I suspect that this at least part of the reason for the 10 second logout waittime. If it gets really bad (i.e. Lots of people doing it all at once), I could see them increasing this time.

lathbury · August 2014

I don't see why the op is bothered it does not affect their experience in any way other than driving down the price of those items which were at 150k at one point and are now at 30k.
Thus giving everyone even those without the time to farm them an opportunity to get them.
I give them to guild mates they will then use the recipe to throw me a few consumables. If a mod has said it's ok and working as intended they have clearly not just decided that. It has been discussed with devs etc. So that is zos official stance. Tbh this seems to me like a QQ thread cause some ppl have something you want so you want them banned sad really.

DenverRalphy · August 2014

lathbury wrote: »

I don't see why the op is bothered it does not affect their experience in any way other than driving down the price of those items which were at 150k at one point and are now at 30k.

It wasn't people farming by re-logging that dropped the prices of those 150k items down to 30k. It was the increased drop rate that drove them down. Re-log farming pre-dated the drop in prices by a large margin.

AlexDougherty · August 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Ok then everyone in the game should be banned. They are all gold farming or ap farming. Half the game is doing things to get gold.

Running trials and selling drops .. gold farmer ban.
Farming mats and selling gear .. gold farmer ban.
Crafting gear and putting it on guild store .. gold farmer ban.
PvPing to accumulate AP .. ap farming ban.

Difference between playing the game, and repeating simple tasks to generate gold/loot. This is an example of reductum absurdum, and as such I reject it completely.

UrQuan · August 2014

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I think the issue is not the farming but the logging in and logging out repeatedly in order to get rare drops.

If you are logging in and out every minute, or faster, then I could see them having an issue because this will hit their system harder and could potentially impact performance of the server as a whole.

There is already an army of hoarders logging in and out constantly as they switch between mule alts. Just logging in and out a few times per hour is not going to be noticed.

I suspect that this at least part of the reason for the 10 second logout waittime. If it gets really bad (i.e. Lots of people doing it all at once), I could see them increasing this time.

Actually, I suspect that the wait time has more to do with certain things being written to database tables. I say this because I've noticed that sometimes I don't get the 10 second logout wait time, so I'm thinking that maybe it checks to see if anything is waiting to be written to the tables, and if not it lets you log out right away. Just a guess though.

lathbury · August 2014

So

DenverRalphy wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

I don't see why the op is bothered it does not affect their experience in any way other than driving down the price of those items which were at 150k at one point and are now at 30k.

It wasn't people farming by re-logging that dropped the prices of those 150k items down to 30k. It was the increased drop rate that drove them down. Re-log farming pre-dated the drop in prices by a large margin.

I sort of agree but it's the 2 things in combination cause relog farmers are the first to notice the change in drop rates. Then natural competition and supply and demand forces them to lower prices. But to say relog farming has no affect on prices is untrue the more ppl farming the more motifs in the market hence the lower price. You also never really addressed my point how is this detrimental to anyone else's experience?

MeowGinger · August 2014

No, it's not. Here you go:

Link to relevant thread (April 24): Need Confirmation: Is Motif farming a bannable offense?
Link to thread page with ZOS employee post: here

The quote in question:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This is not something we consider an exploit or bannable offense. Though it's working as designed, we do intend to make some improvements to the current design.

UrQuan · August 2014

MeowGinger wrote: »

No, it's not. Here you go:

Link to relevant thread (April 24): Need Confirmation: Is Motif farming a bannable offense?
Link to thread page with ZOS employee post: here

The quote in question:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This is not something we consider an exploit or bannable offense. Though it's working as designed, we do intend to make some improvements to the current design.

Thanks @MeowGinger but that quote and link have already been provided in this thread. The people arguing that this is an exploit are willfully ignoring it, or pretending that it doesn't mean exactly what it says.

kitsinni · August 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Ok then everyone in the game should be banned. They are all gold farming or ap farming. Half the game is doing things to get gold.

Running trials and selling drops .. gold farmer ban.
Farming mats and selling gear .. gold farmer ban.
Crafting gear and putting it on guild store .. gold farmer ban.
PvPing to accumulate AP .. ap farming ban.

Difference between playing the game, and repeating simple tasks to generate gold/loot. This is an example of reductum absurdum, and as such I reject it completely.

People farm the first boss of trials over and over to generate gold/loot.
People farm the same dungeon, drop group and reform over and over for gold/loot.
People kill the same animals over and over for the raw mats.

sotonin · August 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

While farming for items is part of the game, logging out to reset container timers seems like an exploit. I highly doubt the developers were like 'Let's give these items a timer before they spawn again, but if the player logs out and comes back, it will reset'. That little detail was discovered later as a way to go around the developers intent, and is an exploit.

Because in ESO everything someone doesn't personally like is an exploit!

You obviously don't understand what an exploit is. Items have timers. The developers made this decision. Any method of getting around these timers is an exploit. You are using a loophole to change what the developers wanted.

So the same devs that have stated animation canceling was not intended but isn't an exploit consider everything that isn't intended an exploit? Please link me a dev post stating it is an exploit.

The original intent does not equal how a game ends up. The devs start with an idea then they see how the game is played and they adjust based on that, just like animation canceling. If they didn't want it to happen they would simply make it so you can't do it. They may have not intended for people to log in and out but they are well aware that it happens and they don't consider it an exploit. They have never hinted in any way that they consider it an exploit. You are taking it upon yourself to speak for the devs intent and what is and is not an exploit, which seems extremely common in this game.

You're speaking nonsense in an attempt to prove against the obvious. Their intent is very clear. Items have timers. Any method to get around this is an obvious exploit.

Wrong. ZOS already made a statement that while animation cancelling was an unintended feature, they don't consider it an exploit.

MeowGinger · August 2014

UrQuan wrote: »

Thanks @MeowGinger but that quote and link have already been provided in this thread. The people arguing that this is an exploit are willfully ignoring it, or pretending that it doesn't mean exactly what it says.

Sorry for the repost in that case, I must have missed it since I only skimmed the first few posts. If people are calling it an exploit despite official word otherwise, well... I'm not really surprised.

DenverRalphy · August 2014

UrQuan wrote: »

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I think the issue is not the farming but the logging in and logging out repeatedly in order to get rare drops.

If you are logging in and out every minute, or faster, then I could see them having an issue because this will hit their system harder and could potentially impact performance of the server as a whole.

There is already an army of hoarders logging in and out constantly as they switch between mule alts. Just logging in and out a few times per hour is not going to be noticed.

I suspect that this at least part of the reason for the 10 second logout waittime. If it gets really bad (i.e. Lots of people doing it all at once), I could see them increasing this time.

Actually, I suspect that the wait time has more to do with certain things being written to database tables. I say this because I've noticed that sometimes I don't get the 10 second logout wait time, so I'm thinking that maybe it checks to see if anything is waiting to be written to the tables, and if not it lets you log out right away. Just a guess though.

The 10 second wait time is to prevent intentionally logging out while you're in dangerous territory to avoid combat/danger. Those instances when you don't have a 10 second timer is because you're in a safe area inside a town/city. Pretty much every MMO uses this mechanic.

Super_Sonico · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

no it's not. Gold farming is a term used specifically for people farming gold to be sold by companies. It is a practice the wrecks game economies. You are using the term inappropriately, especially since the people involved aren't breaking any rules or being a detriment to the game.

^ gold farmer :P

AlexDougherty · August 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Ok then everyone in the game should be banned. They are all gold farming or ap farming. Half the game is doing things to get gold.

Running trials and selling drops .. gold farmer ban.
Farming mats and selling gear .. gold farmer ban.
Crafting gear and putting it on guild store .. gold farmer ban.
PvPing to accumulate AP .. ap farming ban.

Difference between playing the game, and repeating simple tasks to generate gold/loot. This is an example of reductum absurdum, and as such I reject it completely.

People farm the first boss of trials over and over to generate gold/loot.
People farm the same dungeon, drop group and reform over and over for gold/loot.
People kill the same animals over and over for the raw mats.

Yes, but in the first quote I used you said "Ok then everyone in the game should be banned", this is what I'm rejecting.

Not all of us farm gold/loot, if we did the same missions/bosses repeatedly we would be farming, but I personally don't do that. I do bosses once, twice if I'm passing and someone needs help.

The only thing I will repeat is Dolmens, which isn't farming, it's legit. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't farm gold/loot.

lathbury · August 2014

Play the way you want.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Ok then everyone in the game should be banned. They are all gold farming or ap farming. Half the game is doing things to get gold.

Running trials and selling drops .. gold farmer ban.
Farming mats and selling gear .. gold farmer ban.
Crafting gear and putting it on guild store .. gold farmer ban.
PvPing to accumulate AP .. ap farming ban.

Difference between playing the game, and repeating simple tasks to generate gold/loot. This is an example of reductum absurdum, and as such I reject it completely.

People farm the first boss of trials over and over to generate gold/loot.
People farm the same dungeon, drop group and reform over and over for gold/loot.
People kill the same animals over and over for the raw mats.

Yes, but in the first quote I used you said "Ok then everyone in the game should be banned", this is what I'm rejecting.

Not all of us farm gold/loot, if we did the same missions/bosses repeatedly we would be farming, but I personally don't do that. I do bosses once, twice if I'm passing and someone needs help.

The only thing I will repeat is Dolmens, which isn't farming, it's legit. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't farm gold/loot.

it's a legit as the other stuff talked about in this thread. All of it is legit.

lathbury · August 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Ok then everyone in the game should be banned. They are all gold farming or ap farming. Half the game is doing things to get gold.

Running trials and selling drops .. gold farmer ban.
Farming mats and selling gear .. gold farmer ban.
Crafting gear and putting it on guild store .. gold farmer ban.
PvPing to accumulate AP .. ap farming ban.

Difference between playing the game, and repeating simple tasks to generate gold/loot. This is an example of reductum absurdum, and as such I reject it completely.

People farm the first boss of trials over and over to generate gold/loot.
People farm the same dungeon, drop group and reform over and over for gold/loot.
People kill the same animals over and over for the raw mats.

Yes, but in the first quote I used you said "Ok then everyone in the game should be banned", this is what I'm rejecting.

Not all of us farm gold/loot, if we did the same missions/bosses repeatedly we would be farming, but I personally don't do that. I do bosses once, twice if I'm passing and someone needs help.

The only thing I will repeat is Dolmens, which isn't farming, it's legit. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't farm gold/loot.

I want ppl who farm dolmens banned

kitsinni · August 2014

Yeah farming dolmens is absolutely an exploit.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

Agreed, could ZOS please make a statement on whether farming dolmens is acceptable, because currently I report anyone I see doing it.

istateres · August 2014

You can farm dolmens, who knew!! Something else to do while waiting for update 4!!

Fleymark · August 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

While farming for items is part of the game, logging out to reset container timers seems like an exploit. I highly doubt the developers were like 'Let's give these items a timer before they spawn again, but if the player logs out and comes back, it will reset'. That little detail was discovered later as a way to go around the developers intent, and is an exploit.

Because in ESO everything someone doesn't personally like is an exploit!

Exactly. I don't know what it is about this game that attracts so many people who think that anything that doesn't fit their own personal playstyle is an exploit. I've seen farming, camping, grinding and all other manner of perfectly legitimate play called exploits here. And it's ridiculous. I suspect these are the same type of people who pitched fits on the forums in Skyrim when people discovered the compounding crafting bonuses to make uber gear. A freaking single player game and they are worried about how others play.

An exploit is using a bug to gain an advantage one otherwise might not have. Example: The guy who posted recently that he got banned for farming a broken crafting mats node that was respawning instantly forever. Cheating is using 3rd party programs to automate character control in the game. Hence the term "botting."

I realize that there is a fine line in this game with things like that and the use of add-ons and reload farming, but there is a massive difference. Add-ons are supported by the game. Reloading the game is a normal game mechanic and there is a random chance every time one opens a container. Chests, which drop actual loot, are not reloadable.

There is also, quite obviously, a cooldown on loot from containers you will notice if you farm a lot, which I do. It's rare to get more than so many of a certain item in a certain timeframe, like recipes, which is what I farm for. The motifs are just icing for me. Not something I'm crazy about doing, but it's always been part of MMOs and, frankly, if you want a complete recipe book you are going to have to do tons of farming. The economy is so stunted in this game there's no way you can buy them all. And it takes an age and a day. The alt I made to do provisioning has just now gotten all of the blues up to 25 and it's taken about 5 weeks.

I can understand how newbies to MMOs might not understand the differences. But it's the people who just refuse to accept that this is not an exploit and insist that it is because they just don't like it that are annoying. Had one guy in game go nuts about it in zone chat once then send me tells that he was reporting me because I pointed out that it's not an exploit and do it all the time. Lol. It's one thing to be uninformed. It's quite another to be so egotistical as to think that ones own personal preferences are the same as the actual rules.

Regardless, here is official word. I double checked before I started farming my recipes...

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This is not something we consider an exploit or bannable offense. Though it's working as designed, we do intend to make some improvements to the current design.

From this thread in April:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/87214/need-confirmation-is-motif-farming-a-bannable-offense/p2

And there have been changes since then. The drop rates have been adjusted and junk armor is now in the loot table along with junk food and drink, so it's pretty watered down. If you farm you are definitely going to experience variances and timesinks to get what you are after.

Makkir · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

why did you title this gold farming? That is not gold farming? Was it titled like that to evoke stronger emotions in people?

Sure it is. If the goal is to loot items to be converted to gold instead of being used by the player, then it's gold farming.

no it's not. Gold farming is a term used specifically for people farming gold to be sold by companies. It is a practice the wrecks game economies. You are using the term inappropriately, especially since the people involved aren't breaking any rules or being a detriment to the game.

No it absolutely is not. Gold farming is playing a game over X amount of time for the sole purpose of making gold.
I farm gold all the time, I don't sell it.