Nothing should hit for over 1k damage.

Suhxtob-yu · August 2014

Maybe put a hard cap on single target damage output. Something. Either that or let us have 10k health. Something to stop these 2 second deaths. I don't know. Being dead by time the CC break animation is done is ridiculous.

Also, no armor skill should be usable unless you are wearing at least 4 or 5 pieces of that armor type.

*Edit* I realize that 10k health was an extreme. Maybe a more realistic fix would be to make base health 3k with soft cap of 5.5k. This fix would not need adjustments to the current damage.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · August 2014

Right mouse + left mouse when you are CC'ed and hold them down to prevent instant kill.

Roll dodge from roots......

Seriously learn to play. Nothing is more boring than 30 second furball pvp.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · August 2014

I agree with the armor abilities. 5 pieces at least to use the ability.

For the damage cap I disagree. The problem is not about damage done, the problem is the broken balance between armors. The LA is ridiculously strong if you can use the inamovible (sorry I just know the name in French) ability with it.

Just give a higher armor cap and lock the ability to use armor skills without wearing it, and we will see more high dps sorcerers running away because of a big tanky boy chasing him with a big axe ^^

Comaetilico · August 2014

fixing armor/spell penetration (and twiking also reducing it after it is fixed...) would really help a lot... for everything else... defensive skill are there to be used ^^.
If 2 player face each other only with damaging skill it's obvious that they die in a few seconds ^^. try using thing like absorb shields, mist form, damage reduction and the like...

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · August 2014

maybe your build sucks? I have never got hit more then 1k from anything but an ult. the reality is most are not getting 2 hit if they arnt on a horse. use impen pvp or your dead.

Cody · August 2014

I only get killed in 2 hits if its a NB using mark target and snipe. nothing else kills me in 2 hits, and I don't use impenetrable. Its something you are doing wrong:/ I hate to take the side of the L2Pers, but for this thread im gonna have to.

Suhxtob-yu · August 2014

Lol, a whole lot of assumptions thrown around about how bad I am..... Focus people. I never said anything about being killed by 2 hits. I never mentioned a thing about my build or playstyle. Nor did I say anything about not knowing how to break out of CC.

Back on topic though.....NOTHING should hit for OVER 1k.

That is all.

Edit* Also, I never mentioned what traits I do or do not run on my armor.

Morgha_Kul · August 2014

I tend to agree that 2 second combats are pointless. I've seen this over and over in many games. A "fight" that lasts that long is one in which someone basically didn't get to fight back, which isn't any fun and isn't terribly dramatic.

Now, you don't want fights lasting hours, but a minute or two for two roughly evenly matched foes, where they trade the advantage back and forth... that would be entertaining.

I once used a hockey analogy:
Imagine going to a hockey game. It's sudden death, first goal wins, one on one, two centers, no goalies. They drop the puck and one center immediately slaps it into the opposing net. Elapsed time, two seconds.

Would you rather watch that, or a regular game where the teams struggle to get the advantage and finally win the game after a while?

forthewinn2 · August 2014

Putting a hard cap on single target damage would make stealth burst builds nonviable, forcing yet more people into the light armor mage style builds.
Besides this is less of an issue now that the health softcap has been bumped up to around 3100.

If someone is wearing light armor, with no impenetrable traits on and a VR12 uses mark target on them, they don't block and get hit by a snipe from stealth, then they should absolutely take more than 1000 damage.

guybrushtb16_ESO · August 2014

Hardcaps on damage is just a laughably bad idea.

Popeguard · August 2014

VR12 sorc with Templar friend (Ebonheart) vs DK and Templar (Daggerfall)
2vs2 set up, start!
10 minutes later we all die, thanks AD..
So yeah my point is:
I rarely get one shotted but it has happened I don't think the values are extreme, Crystal Fragments hit for ~750 base damage and ~1500 crit, did a couple of one shots due to Soul Assault or Meteor + CF but it is not common.
You have not much but a few moments to dodge almost any skill in the game even when instant casts like CF, double tap, block, run, whatever...

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Lol, a whole lot of assumptions thrown around about how bad I am..... Focus people. I never said anything about being killed by 2 hits. I never mentioned a thing about my build or playstyle. Nor did I say anything about not knowing how to break out of CC.

Back on topic though.....NOTHING should hit for OVER 1k.

That is all.

Edit* Also, I never mentioned what traits I do or do not run on my armor.

...soooo you're basically just making a statement and then not really backing it up with anything, anything at all. Just "because I say so"... right...

Morgha_Kul · August 2014

forthewinn2 wrote: »

Putting a hard cap on single target damage would make stealth burst builds nonviable, forcing yet more people into the light armor mage style builds.
Besides this is less of an issue now that the health softcap has been bumped up to around 3100.

If someone is wearing light armor, with no impenetrable traits on and a VR12 uses mark target on them, they don't block and get hit by a snipe from stealth, then they should absolutely take more than 1000 damage.

The stealth burst builds are largely the problem. I remember when City of Heroes/Villains introduced the Stalker class to the game for pvp. They were a stealth/burst class.

You would be in the zone, and suddenly you were dead. No chance to retaliate, no way to defend yourself. The result was that people stopped going to the pvp zones. If there WAS anyone there, it was just invisible Stalkers waiting around for someone to show up. That meant there WAS no pvp.

I've seen the same sort of thing in other games, too. Over at Star Trek Online, there's precious little pvp because the Klingon and Romulan ships all have cloaks and huge burst damage. Thus, no one goes into pvp just to get burst oneshotted (or close to it).

The fundamental thing about pvp is COMPETITION. If one player doesn't have a chance to fight back, there IS no competition. Imagine playing tennis with someone, and being told you have to lie on your face on the court while the other player served. What fun would that be? How much fun would HE be having? Yes, he'd win, but there's no competition, and therefore no challenge.

Burst damage classes really are bad for pvp, for just these reasons.

Baphomet · August 2014

The point made about the armor actives is perfectly valid though.

Suhxtob-yu · August 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Lol, a whole lot of assumptions thrown around about how bad I am..... Focus people. I never said anything about being killed by 2 hits. I never mentioned a thing about my build or playstyle. Nor did I say anything about not knowing how to break out of CC.

Back on topic though.....NOTHING should hit for OVER 1k.

That is all.

Edit* Also, I never mentioned what traits I do or do not run on my armor.

...soooo you're basically just making a statement and then not really backing it up with anything, anything at all. Just "because I say so"... right...

What more information do you want other than what is already here in this thread? 3kish health means that having spammable abilities that hit for OVER 1k damage makes for battles (not every single fight) that last about 2 seconds.

I am giving everyone the benefit of a doubt by assuming people are aware of basic math. And not derailing the main thought with a 5 paragraph post explaining every aspect of my build, opponent's builds, time of day, weather...... I think you get my point by now (hopefully).

Suhxtob-yu · August 2014

I just updated the OP with a more realistic alternative to a hard cap on damage.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · August 2014

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

maybe your build sucks? I have never got hit more then 1k from anything but an ult. the reality is most are not getting 2 hit if they arnt on a horse. use impen pvp or your dead.

I have been hit for more then 1 k now while being marked/ sniped. But that's just the way it is. I have no problem if they fix the strange bow bug that's happening.

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Suhxtob-yu wrote: »

Lol, a whole lot of assumptions thrown around about how bad I am..... Focus people. I never said anything about being killed by 2 hits. I never mentioned a thing about my build or playstyle. Nor did I say anything about not knowing how to break out of CC.

Back on topic though.....NOTHING should hit for OVER 1k.

That is all.

Edit* Also, I never mentioned what traits I do or do not run on my armor.

...soooo you're basically just making a statement and then not really backing it up with anything, anything at all. Just "because I say so"... right...

What more information do you want other than what is already here in this thread? 3kish health means that having spammable abilities that hit for OVER 1k damage makes for battles (not every single fight) that last about 2 seconds.

I am giving everyone the benefit of a doubt by assuming people are aware of basic math. And not derailing the main thought with a 5 paragraph post explaining every aspect of my build, opponent's builds, time of day, weather...... I think you get my point by now (hopefully).

No, all you keep saying is that nothing should hit for 1k damage. There is no discussion with you, you've decided and that's it.

Fact is, 1k hits don't even phase me with 3.2k health, once I see that 1k hit I go turtle mode and then good luck to them. What IS an issue is broken and bugged unbreakable CC in a game where you can wind up a 1k hit (because no one is just throwing out 1k by pressing their left mouse button, as a NB I can get a 1k hit with a stealth snipe or throwing together a ambush combo from stealth, if you're getting hit for 1k and you're not CC'd or dying to the "not showing health change" bow bug which I actually think you're dying to, not 1k hits, it's your fault if you're dying).

The game has block, use it. If you're letting someone hit you for 1k over and over again, you're at fault.

Code2501 · August 2014

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

The stealth burst builds are largely the problem. I remember when City of Heroes/Villains introduced the Stalker class to the game for pvp. They were a stealth/burst class.

You would be in the zone, and suddenly you were dead. No chance to retaliate, no way to defend yourself. The result was that people stopped going to the pvp zones. If there WAS anyone there, it was just invisible Stalkers waiting around for someone to show up. That meant there WAS no pvp.

I've seen the same sort of thing in other games, too. Over at Star Trek Online, there's precious little pvp because the Klingon and Romulan ships all have cloaks and huge burst damage. Thus, no one goes into pvp just to get burst oneshotted (or close to it).

The fundamental thing about pvp is COMPETITION. If one player doesn't have a chance to fight back, there IS no competition. Imagine playing tennis with someone, and being told you have to lie on your face on the court while the other player served. What fun would that be? How much fun would HE be having? Yes, he'd win, but there's no competition, and therefore no challenge.

Burst damage classes really are bad for pvp, for just these reasons.

Except ESO is not like either CoH or STO... everyone can sneak in ESO, everyone has easy access to magelight. You don't have to be riding around Cyrodill in neon pink armor with a giant "gank me* sign on your toon unless you want to.

That said, unless you are hit off your horse with a buffed sneak attack without radiant magelight on while you solo race across the map, you should have plenty of time to at least respond if not win.

To OP, 2 words, why not?

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

Code2501 wrote: »

To OP, 2 words, why not?

Indeed, his entire post is "you shouldn't be able to" with no real actual reason why not.

Suhxtob-yu · August 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Code2501 wrote: »

To OP, 2 words, why not?

Indeed, his entire post is "you shouldn't be able to" with no real actual reason why not.

Not really though. I gave enough information, combined with everyone's own personal knowledge of the games simplest mechanics, to understand the main topic.

Again, what more do you want? Because all I am getting from you is spiteful comments which leads one to the conclusion that you are either one of the people who enjoys a 1 on 1 fight that lasts 2 seconds or you are salty from meeting up with me. Either way, I ask politely that you stay on topic and stop trying to derail the conversation towards your greatness/my incompetence.

ArRashid · August 2014

Then again, extra damage vs low hp seems more realistic. I mean, if you were in a medieval fight and you got your guts spilled on the ground (or head split into two), you didn't usually brush it off as a flesh wound and continue fighting.
It was all about dodging, blocking and parrying, pretty much any hit on skin could kill you, or at least cripple you severely.

I'd completely remake PvP for realistic (skyrim-like.. well, almost)

Defensive stats:
The "I know what I'm doing" ones:
- parry - counter a melee weapon attack by melee weapon attack - both player and enemy take no damage

- block - counter an attack with your shield (timed, every 0.5s of continued blocking increase the damage you are dealt by 33% - "perfectly" timed blocks reduce incoming damage to zero and stagger enemy briefly).

The "I feel lucky today" ones:
- dodge - passive chance to dodge an attack, with various damage taken (0-15% of the damage you'd take without dodging) - so you end up getting your sleeve cut instead of arm chopped off..

- bounce - almost an opposite of dodge - while dodge rewards you for avoiding being hit (by being nimble), bounce means enemy's weapon didn't penetrate your armor and just bounced off, doing no damage at all

Armors (defensively)

Light - great bonus to dodge and medium bonus to parry, bounce set to 0%

Medium - great bonus to parry and block, small bonus to dodge and bounce

Heavy - great bonus to bounce, small bonus to parry and block, dodge set to 0%

Offense (before defenses)

- light melee attack - deals 25% HP damage hit, 50% HP crit
- heavy melee attack - 80% HP damage hit, 160% HP crit (well placed heavy attack simply kills you if you don't avoid it by at least one of the above techniques)
- ranged light attack - deals 10% HP damage hit, 20% HP crit
- ranged heavy attack - deals 75% HP damage hit, 150% HP crit (again, instant kill - though you can roll dodge to cause the enemy to miss, or rely on luck and hope it will bounce or that you'll dodge it..)
- all damage spells are disabled
- heals are greatly reduced and have fairly long cast times

Now they could cry about this, and not interfere with PvE abilities and shun any changes for the sake of "balance"....

duncan_cougarpreeb18_ESO · August 2014

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I tend to agree that 2 second combats are pointless. I've seen this over and over in many games.

A "fight" that lasts that long is one in which someone basically didn't get to fight back, which isn't any fun and isn't terribly dramatic.

Indeed, this one can only second that statement.

Granted there are also those cases where you only see that you were hit by the time you are already dead. Here it would be really helpful to have some time-stamp next to the damage taken.

However, what really notches up the rage factor (at least for this one) is not even being able to retaliate given the current forms of "immobilize".

For those fighting styles that are about using magicka based abilities, at least you got some stamina to waste for breaking free. But even that will be in short supply given the instant re-castability of said abilities.

You want to actually use stamina to fight back? Forget about it!

<sarcastic>
And before you ask, yes, this one is doing it wrong, obviously, and should learn to wear skirts and carrying a stick.
</sarcastic>

For those still stupid enough to try something else than magicka, and your mileage may vary, the problem is more often that you can't do anything when being attacked, as any break free is instantly countered and even if you actually do break free, you are already way done on health and have no stamina left to effectively fight (back).

For this reason, this one would rather propose that any sort of crowd control is not an instant cast, but takes e.g. 1.2 seconds to cast (as in: you want that easy hit, you have to spent the time) and for those crying out nerf, check out the current night blade skill for a good laugh: 1.2 second cast time, single target and breaks on first damage from any source (meaning even DoT), and then compare that with those for dragon knight or sorcerers => instant: yes; area effect: yes, balanced: no.

Some cast time for those CCs would actually allow all folks to have at least a fighting chance (read less than a second to get out of a CC given break free animation does take some time as well and reaction time for most people (not to mention lag) is slightly more than one millisecond) to do something once they actually did manage to break free, at least in those rare cases where they actually do have some stamina left after that and before the next CC hits.

Another option for any of those medium armor wearing (read hopeless) cases like this one: Instead of the currently completely useless Agility passive skill (with everyone using animation canceling that 'extra speed' for normal attacks is really going to help, NOT) make this a chance to dodge of e.g. 5 % per piece of medium armor equipped when wearing 5 or more pieces.

Then light armor would give you that nice magicka and magical recovery, not to mention spell resistance / spell critical buff, while heavy armor gives healing, better block, more damage and spell resistance while the extra agility of medium armor would then give you an automatic. i.e. not using up a skill bar slot or stamina, dodge chance of 25 to 35%, more only with special buffs, armor sets and/or actively using the medium armor evasion skill.

Morgha_Kul · August 2014

Went into Cyrodiil last night for a bit (joined a siege, and that was fun for a while), and what I saw was just what I was saying.

I left the outpost, ran a short distance toward where the siege was happening, and an invisible attacker hit me, which left me with nearly no health, stunned and knocked down. Before I could break the CC, I was dead. No chance to respond. This happened over and over, and really wasn't any fun.

Now, imagine someone trying PvP for the first time experiencing that. They're just going to say, "screw this," and go back to PvE.

Instant kills where someone is unable to fight back is BAD for the game. It's really just that simple. Everyone needs to be competitive.

ArRashid · August 2014

The root of all troubles in PvP is crouching making you invisible, not the actual "sneak" bonus (which only works from behind).

I wish they disabled sneak invisibility in cyrondil, so people would actually be forced to hide using natural obstacles like rocks or trees, instead of just materializing out of thin air to kill you. That would make sneak kills like this way less frequent, and even IF you got killed like that, you could say "GG awesome kill" instead of "I [snip] hate those OP stealthers!"

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

wllstrt75b14_ESO · August 2014

ArRashid wrote: »

The root of all troubles in PvP is crouching making you invisible, not the actual "sneak" bonus (which only works from behind).

I wish they disabled sneak invisibility in cyrondil, so people would actually be forced to hide using natural obstacles like rocks or trees, instead of just materializing out of thin air to kill you. That would make sneak kills like this way less frequent, and even IF you got killed like that, you could say "GG awesome kill" instead of "I [snip] hate those OP stealthers!"

so what you are saying is that you want to take away the only skill that really separates NB's from any other class their invisibility skill? which lasts 2 seconds? So the NB and their *** damage unless its from sneak of invisible, will be even more *** with your idea cause well you dont want them to sneak anymore, meanwhile friggin crazy OP sorcerers do 1k plus damage with crystal frags stun you then get to instant another frag with no magical cost due to a passive they get? Wow lets continue to screw the NB and make the sorc more powerful great *** idea.

you sir belong on the dev team cause this is what they do all the time screw the NB and boost the sorc.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Rune_Relic · August 2014

This is why I proposed
Max Hit damage = base damage x area (m2) x distance m
So you can do;
long range light damage over a wide area.
short range heavy damage over a wide area.
But you are always limited to Max hit damage. The longer the distance, the greater the Area or the higher the damage reduces the other two.

Hence touch damage would have the greatest effect, range damage and AoE would have diminishing effect.
eg.
500 HP x 2m^2 area x 1m range = 1000hp/m2/m [Touch AoE]
100 HP x 1m^2 area x 10m Range = 1000hp/m2/m [Dot]
25 HP x 4m^2 area x 10m Range = 1000hp/m2/m [Range AoE]

Koshchei · August 2014

One-shot mechanics are part of MMOs. L2Avoid/Mitigate.

ArRashid · August 2014

Moderators, seriously? I intentionally replace a curse with another word, and you replace that word with your word? What's the reason? Was my word STILL too inappropriate for you? This game was rated M yet (WARNING, obviously 18+ content ahead!)

"effin"

gets replaced by [snip]?

/facepalm
(not to mention the response to my (edited) reply was written in totally rude way and contains several worse words.. yet the only thing edited in THAT ONE was my quote..)

(also, I imagine the ones reporting these as 70+ year old ladies who have nothing else to do with their time)
helen.png?w=440

sigh, now I have to expect getting another moderator edit or worse..

ArRashid · August 2014

wllstrt75b14_ESO wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

The root of all troubles in PvP is crouching making you invisible, not the actual "sneak" bonus (which only works from behind).

I wish they disabled sneak invisibility in cyrondil, so people would actually be forced to hide using natural obstacles like rocks or trees, instead of just materializing out of thin air to kill you. That would make sneak kills like this way less frequent, and even IF you got killed like that, you could say "GG awesome kill" instead of "I [snip] hate those OP stealthers!"

so what you are saying is that you want to take away the only skill that really separates NB's from any other class their invisibility skill? which lasts 2 seconds? So the NB and their *** damage unless its from sneak of invisible, will be even more *** with your idea cause well you dont want them to sneak anymore, meanwhile friggin crazy OP sorcerers do 1k plus damage with crystal frags stun you then get to instant another frag with no magical cost due to a passive they get? Wow lets continue to screw the NB and make the sorc more powerful great *** idea.

you sir belong on the dev team cause this is what they do all the time screw the NB and boost the sorc.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

You sir, are an example of what's wrong with forum community. You don't even feel the need to read beyond first sentence to start your tantrum. Please read that post again and sit in the corner of shame for a while.

I, for one, play nightblades (I have TWO - one VR2 which I abandoned because I didn't have gold for any more respecs - and one lvl 42). I regularly post topics on whole forum to ensure their problems get attention they need (and provide viable suggestions how and why), but they are regularly being ignored by attention[vertical workers] posting nonsense threads and PvP kids.. well, throwing tantrums after reading first sentence, like you.

I am fully aware that half NB skills are not working partially or completely, but I have no power to change that fact. I can only write forum posts and hope they won't get ignored and disappear into page 2+ where noone ever clicks..

And to counter your argument on sneak being that much needed in cyrondil
- there are plenty of hiding holes all around. Don't expect to ambush someone on a plain field. Those are for massive battles where stealth doesn't matter.

- for bow nightblade, there is Snipe (and it's morphs), with which you can shoot someone on the road literally from the middle of the forest growing on the side of it, and shoot 2 more arrows till it reaches it's target, practically killing it while also stunning it (if you hit him from behind or from sides - practically anything but standing in the middle of the road trying to shoot him as he approaches would work)

- for melee nightblades, well, 99% (or more) of them are using AMBUSH skill. If you don't know, that's the one which TELEPORTS you to the target, STUNS IT (doesn't matter from which side it's used) and deals moderate damage (increased to 300% when hit from sneak from behind- or as I suggested, JUST FROM BEHIND)

- for staff+light nightblades.. well... they work best in melee range anyway, Ambush works like a charm for them as well.

k4ntermoose · August 2014

Rofl @ OP.

You can heal faster than 1k dmg hits can be dished out.

Get to vr12, test all the skills and combos - then lets discuss.

If you can't avoid 1k hit, or two in a row get out of PvP. People generally suck in PvP and look for the quickest and easiest way to win. If its two shots and some light attacks with a bow - oh wait seems half of PvP is in bow now. Catching on?

What makes a great pvp player? One who adapts. Bow scrubs are still scrubs. Dodge roll, heal do what it takes - its PvP. I can think of at least 2 class skills per class (maybe not sorc) and many abilities to deal with "omgwtf" damage.

MOAR QQ!