PBpsy wrote: »

This thread pretty much starts with the ridiculous premise that going Magicka based NB is shameful so it can't really be taken to serious either.


Anyway if I would go for a DW/BOW Ranger I would go Khajith /DK all the way. I actually have one.I do hope when I reach high VR with it the diversity of stamina options is better.

I started this thread with the premise that I am a cat dw/bow and have specced this all the way. But in trials as a NB with the role of DD/DPS class I had to respec to a staff and pure magica output to push my dps on bosses. To get it higher I will also have to go light armour. The DPS has to be sustained with regen skills.

I could stay with my bow and med armour but I will do less DPS. Trials are not a cruise for all of us and that extra DPS when taken into acount across the whole raid makes a significant difference.

Its not a ridiculous to say that for me this is a shame because I want to play bow.

Put the name nightblade and any preconceived ideas aside that you (or me ) and Zos have in regards to what that character should or shouldn't be just for a moment, and lets look at the real issue.

Staff with 7 light is better than ANY other combo out there right now! < This is the issue that needs to be fixed!


Once we get that fixed, then maybe ZOS can look at the other Elephant in the room, and that would be Stamina builds.

Groups for trials are searchin' for staff dds only... That's sad and not speaking for balance of the weapons nor the design of the trials...

Ive been running around Crag for a couple weeks now. I made v12 before I went there. Maybe its just me but Crag seems to have the highest ratio of crappy-to-decent people in the entire game. Is it maybe alot of kids/dummys that cant really play a class or level up any other way then to get into big groups and roll into the Crag dungeons? Hey, there are lots of cool people in Crag so dont hang me here Im just saying it seems like theres more ding *** in Crag than anywhere else. Just my humble opinion...of course

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

It is sad. Trials were poorly designed with no thought for diversity.

Likewise, though, I refuse. I just won't ever participate in Trials until they get someone with a clue to (re)design the dungeon mechanics.

its not trials, its the balance between mage and physical combats.

It is trials. That's what the thread's about. Read it.

If you take NB out of the post title and make it "dps Trials - the shame of using a staff" then you got it right...I will remind you that at current state NB's are the top dps in trials (look at top times you see5-6 NB's in every group and yes sadly using light+staff) but hey thats for all classes and atm NB outdps rest of the classes using that.Imagine where the rest of the classes stand...so plz stop crying about your already overpowered dps class at least for pve NB is the top dps class in the game at the moment...

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

I am the OP.

I can hit 900 dps with dw, med armour on cyro mammoths and giants, using ambush and hidden blade opener, weapon dmg and then impale close. Magica build for spell crit and damage.

I believe that is called Burst damage. And for burst damage 900 dps are very low.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

However my original point is about trials.

Melee is not the best idea on trial bosses for a med or light NB. ranged is advisable weaving animation cancelling into your rotation.

A NB in light with resto staff with full spell output, building for spell crit and damage, using magelight and armor sets hits far harder than a dw or bow in trials on single boss target.

The DPS role in Aetherion Archive is to push as much dps as possible, around 500-700 sustained dps on bosses, single target. You arent going to hit that with dw.

Thats is why in trials you see a tank with a sword and everyone else with staves.

I tested medium build right after Update 3 came live.
Had full legendary gear : Night Silence, Hunding Rage, Ravaging Jewelry (Elite PVP Gear), Double daggers and Resto staff as backup weapon just for generating some ultimate betwin fights (inner light give 20% crit, so you get some ulti).
In total, i had 68% crit, around 230 weapon damage, 2584 Stamina (with food), 120 stamina regen.
Pulled off around 840-874 DPS on every boss in Hel Ra.
Cost of DW skills with that medium armor cost reduction are so low that i used my Panacea of Weapon power just for additional damage and crits. Never had troubles with stamina dry out.

Even thou it is noticebly better then it was before Update 3, this 874 DPS are still nowere near to Light Armor and Resto.
Main reason is that every single weapon skill have lower damage then any Night Blade class skill even with 230 weapon damage and 2584 stamina...
VoB and other ultimate scaled with Weapon damage and Stamina have noticebly lower damage aswell. Around 20 points less damage per tick compared to my Light Armor build.
Ultimate generation become better indeed, i could use VoB 3-4 times per fight. However ultimate generation are still noticebly lower compared to Magicka build.
Reason for that is that you generate additional ultimate from Funneal Health when it crits, bcoz you not just doing damage, but also heal ally which generate additional ultimate + 2 additional ultimate points naturaly just for using Siphoning skill.
Had ALOT of problems with surviveability. Most of the hardest BOSSes attacks are spell based, therefore i were forced to use Annulment alot but still i wouldn't be able to survive in alot of situations if no Barrier or VoB were used.
If i were Vampire, i think nothing could help me stay till the end on the AA last boss nuke phase.

So i must admit that Medium build indeed become much better, but still far away from Magicka.
If you take into account that magicka builds become even stronger after patch, this Medium gear improvements are nothing and Abyss betwin LA and Med only become bigger.

P.S. Using this build in PVP and Insta killing people with Bow double ambush trick was really fun.

magnusnet wrote: »

So, once again:

Stamina builds: High burst, High Control. Good for PVP and PVE bosses with low HP.

Magicka builds: High DPS, High sustain of DPS. Good for big bosses that require a long time to kill.

If you want to kill the bosses in AA and have enough sustain to get a decent DPS, then you will use magicka build or you will fail.

It is unrealistic to expect that you can do everything at the highest level of effectiveness with any classes. Templars are better healers and Nova useful, DKs are better tanks and very good DPs, NBs are very good DPS (can be better than DKs), sorcs are good DPS and their Negate is a must have. Sorc and NB can tank but they will never be as effective as Templars or DKs.

Everybody can have any role and use any weapon and be viable in the rest of the game, but in trials there is a need for sustained burst damage, there are DPS runs in AA, the instance IS supposed to be hard (it's the only real end game PVE content so it's supposed to make you work for it and not be achievable by people who don't really know what they are doing).

If you refuse to adapt your gaming style to complete trials, it's your choice, but you can't blame ZOS or other players(90% of them had to adapt their builds & skills) for not wanting you in their group since you have the means to be effective, you just choose not to.

Some groups will take stamina builds nowadays because 800ish dps can be reached since patch, and it's acceptable to finish trials (with difficulty but still). One thing is sure though, you will never complete Hard Mode with current stamina builds (boss has 1 million HP & recovers ~12% of his HP when he enters burn phase).

So your actually saying that its ok that only magica builds are viable for trials?

That's nice, but the vast majority of people think that's utter BS and needs changing.

Just because something is the way it is currently, does not mean that that was how it was envisioned by Zenimax.

Have Zenimax ever come out and said we only want magica builds as DPS in trials? No, in fact they have pretty much said the opposite, they want to balance stamina builds.

And whoever game you an insightful, needs shooting.

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

We have stamina nightblades pulling 1k+ boss DPS using a bow in trials, FWIW.

I will never believe this without video proof.

Well it does suck that everyone and their mother uses staff....really sucks....

Nightblades to be were always robe mages with...you know...a blade....at least to me....I GET that in this game those are suppose to be rouges....

Its going to suck even more once the inevitable overkill nerf to make other classes happy ruins sorc and turns them into a class no one likes to play...

I swear in all the themeparks I play I just like to play mage for the visuals, the CC, and the range combat...and in every game they are either the target of people to convince devs to nerf into the ground, or come pre-nerfed into the ground...why cant people get mages right in any game?

I like how resto staff pumps out more dps than dw/bow.

Auralia wrote: »

I wont use a staff or more than 2 pieces of light armour as a NB. If it means I can't do trials, so be it. I am a night blade not a mage.

It is obvious that some of you are thinking about non elder scrolls games. If you expected Nightblade to be a non-casting rogue ... that is a YOU problem.

Nightblades overall are playing the way they should - as stealthy casters.

Yes, every class should have the option to use blades and bows. And yes, those weapons should probably be tweaked to make them more viable.

But, basing your argument on the false premise that Nightblades should play like WoW rogues ... tell us nothing.

Tabbycat wrote: »

There are basically two options to address this:

1. nerf dress/ stick so that it is on par with the other weapons and armors available.

2. buff the other weapons and armors so they are on par with stick/ dress.

Which is the better solution?

#1 with some of #2 would be best, IMO.

Sadly, they will probably continue to do the #3 that you didn't list and what they've been doing all along...leave everything unbalanced and nerf the content so balance really doesn't matter.

They did it with the main story solo fights, they did it with vet content and likely will do more, and, I believe, have done it with dungeon boss fights.

Trials are pretty much the only hard wall stamina builds hit now, in pve at least. Arguably, they just havent gotten to nerfing it yet.

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

It is sad. Trials were poorly designed with no thought for diversity.

Likewise, though, I refuse. I just won't ever participate in Trials until they get someone with a clue to (re)design the dungeon mechanics.

or, you know, fix stamina builds.

but we can keep treating symptoms instead of the disease. Its like putting neosporin on a tumor.

magnusnet wrote: »

Kizziexo wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

So, once again:

Stamina builds: High burst, High Control. Good for PVP and PVE bosses with low HP.

Magicka builds: High DPS, High sustain of DPS. Good for big bosses that require a long time to kill.

If you want to kill the bosses in AA and have enough sustain to get a decent DPS, then you will use magicka build or you will fail.

It is unrealistic to expect that you can do everything at the highest level of effectiveness with any classes. Templars are better healers and Nova useful, DKs are better tanks and very good DPs, NBs are very good DPS (can be better than DKs), sorcs are good DPS and their Negate is a must have. Sorc and NB can tank but they will never be as effective as Templars or DKs.

Everybody can have any role and use any weapon and be viable in the rest of the game, but in trials there is a need for sustained burst damage, there are DPS runs in AA, the instance IS supposed to be hard (it's the only real end game PVE content so it's supposed to make you work for it and not be achievable by people who don't really know what they are doing).

If you refuse to adapt your gaming style to complete trials, it's your choice, but you can't blame ZOS or other players(90% of them had to adapt their builds & skills) for not wanting you in their group since you have the means to be effective, you just choose not to.

Some groups will take stamina builds nowadays because 800ish dps can be reached since patch, and it's acceptable to finish trials (with difficulty but still). One thing is sure though, you will never complete Hard Mode with current stamina builds (boss has 1 million HP & recovers ~12% of his HP when he enters burn phase).

So you honestly believe this is okay? That this is balanced? And adapting is not the term, settling is. Imagine if all the players "adapt" to light and staff, who would complain? Therefore why would the devs fix it ? We'd all be playing the same styles with minor differences which is sad. I understand it's the best way to go right now due to imbalance and a clear error from the devs, but don't you dare say it's right. That is just plain dumb and there would be no need for other skills and weapons since you'll do better with magicka regardless.

I'm saying that it's just how it is and that many hardcore PVE players don't really care, they adapt (and trials are endgame PVE content that is supposed to be hard & satisfy part of the hunger for hard content that hardcore players have).. If tomorrow stamina builds are more OP than magicka, I'll probably have a full set of gear & new skills 2 or 3 days later to maximise my effectiveness. I also have a completely different gear and skills for PVP that I just changed after 1.3.3.

If you want to enjoy your build and go with it to trials you can actually complete them at the moment, if you have decent dps with your stamina build and know what you're doing (so only 25% of stamina build users can complete trials I suppose, not because "they aren't good players", but because not many people have researched the best dps possibilities for trials in stamina builds since the result suck compared to magicka).

If they make trials easy and accessible to any players then hardcore players have nothing to do .

So my actual point is: Adapt or Avoid. It's pointless to make 1000 more posts about this subject, ZOS is aware of the issues and if they haven't addressed them yet it's either because: They feel it's ok the way it is or it's actually hard to buff stamina builds in trials without overpowering (and the other way around for nerfing magicka builds) them in PVP, and lowering the difficulty of the trials would only make them super easier for staff users.

Someone said in an other post that bosses should be vulnerable to bleeding effects in trials to help the DPS of stamina builds. Since all my damage comes from dots that I apply to the boss I've thought this to be the solution since the beginning (replace burning dots by bleeding effects). This is a clear elegant solution that wouldn't involve changing drastically the balance between builds but I guess it's a nono for ZOS.

All I know is this, me and a guild I joined beat trial today very easily while I played with my stamina build and I even hit 938 dps. People don't have to avoid or adapt to anything they don't want to. It's called practice and learning. I used to do only 300 dps before and I couldn't stand it. I hit the forums and searched for the right gear that fits my play style, found the right attacks I could weave with(sadly of course, weaving is an exploit to me.) and I practiced till I got it right. We beat AA with no worries and I put more damage out then some others in there with other classes. No one complained or forced anyone to use anything they didn't want to. It's the people who settle for what the "adapters" force them to do that complain about ppl doing trials in stamina builds. Stop giving in, force ZOS to fix their game and beat the odds. That's how I see it at least. Do what others gave up on. Notice a lot less NB complaints lately? They mostly gave in. We need more post to fix stamina and not complain about the people who rather play how they want than to give into the hype about light armor and staffs while still competing in trials just like everyone else. Don't avoid, overcome. Don't adapt, change the game. Play how you want like the game was intended despite the errors and imbalances, just don't give in to the bs.