Nerf this, Nerf that - Here's a HINT!!

bitaken · August 2014

Nerfing everything does nothing for balance. Just outright nerfing abilities into uselessness - what many seem to cry for on MMO forums - does nothing for the health of a PvP system. While I could write a book about why this is a true statement I will instead explain why nerfing the things that seem OP is not a good idea.

It's always better from a balance perspective to draw up counters for seemingly OP abilities, than it is to make those abilities useless. A lot of the time people calling for nerfs are not using existing counters that are in the game. Everyone seems to hate that bat swarm got a buff (it's damage is based on weapon power) - but who in your group is running evil hunter? who in your group is running circle of protection? Who in your group is running the DK ultimate that provides a massive damage shield? Were you blocking that streaker that is soaking your group in negates? Who in your group is running purge? Who in your group is running retreating maneuvers to get you out of a bad position? Who in your group is calling out spots to form up - push - fall back - and where to charge the enemy lines?

These are things that unfortunately are some of the counters that are required to defeat the "OP abilities" that the average "PUG" does not have. Because, the average "PUG" only has a bunch of people wanting to earn some AP and maybe take a few keeps. The way this PvP system is built is not very good for PUG's in general. That's to it's benefit because - and here is the good part - the PvP is REALLY GOOD when it's two solid groups facing off in a keep - on a resource node - in the open field - at a milegate or at an outlying fort. Unfortunately, this leads to a lot of pug steamrolling by the organized teams that use group synergy to their advantage.

So, please, stop crying for nerfs on these forums. Instead - build a team of folks get on teamspeak, vent, skype - WHATEVER - and put the tools the GROUP needs on your bar and make a team that can be successful against almost any group. You will find you win some, and you lose some but you will have loads more fun.

Now, if they could just fix this incessant crashing bug.

Dovel · August 2014

I agree. PVP is going to ruin the PVE aspect of this game. Players that want 1 vs 1 balance will eventually end up with a game that has every class exactly the same. And a shortage of Tanks & Healers for PVE because no one is going to want to spend time leveling one when their skills are worthless.

PVP, especially in ESO, is designed to be fought with teammates. Stop running out there alone, dying, and then coming to the forums to complain.

UPrime · August 2014

2 points:

1. People can cry nerf all the want, that doesn't mean it will actually get nerfed. Often when you have a lot of people calling for a nerf it does in fact need it, but it's not done because they were crying. It's because the underlying data supported the nerf.

2. Nerfs are NOT just because of PvP. PvE needs balance as well. You should never have abilities that are the best out of a group of similar abilities in all situations. If you do, you end up with less choices of viable builds.

Draxys · August 2014

+1 agree

Anastasia · August 2014

UPrime wrote: »

2 points:

1. People can cry nerf all the want, that doesn't mean it will actually get nerfed. Often when you have a lot of people calling for a nerf it does in fact need it, but it's not done because they were crying. It's because the underlying data supported the nerf.

2. Nerfs are NOT just because of PvP. PvE needs balance as well. You should never have abilities that are the best out of a group of similar abilities in all situations. If you do, you end up with less choices of viable builds.

OR:

1. People can cry nerf all the want, that doesn't mean it will actually get nerfed.

People could sure as h3ll think about what they 'wish' for as the changes that have been made to this MMO just since live make us wonder where the owners commitment is, or IF there is any commitment beyond blowin' in the wind.

Instead of instituting better grouping rewards, upping group e x p bonuses or other incentives to motivate players to group up regularly before hitting PvE endgame, now its cradle to endcap entry solo-centric.

What content IS there for mid to upper level PvE players to hone their skills and figure out what will make them as a player able to contribute and be effective in GROUPS when they hit endgame??? And Stam/magicka ratio NEEDS more attention than the 'tad' it just got in 1.3.

Exactly WHAT is it that TESO is...now??

Artemiisia · August 2014

hehehh I made a thread about the same a while back

Nerf this nerf that

so yeah im thinking the same

yorzo · August 2014

Nerf server d/cs please

JackDaniell · August 2014

I run a support build templar, something a pug group will almost never have. Restoring aura and blinding flashes FTW!

ferzalrwb17_ESO · August 2014

Some things require a nerf. Some things do not. Some thing require a buff. Some things do not. Nerf this, buff that.. to be expected. If you think this game is balanced as it is you're off your rocker.

It needs tweaking and there's going to be some nerfing in that process. It would be nice if everything could be tweaked together so that nerfs would be less harsh and mechanics would allow for better countering of currently OP skills but these clowns can't make arrows visible. Not gonna happen.

Draxys · August 2014

I don't think the point was that balance is fine right now, simply that crying nerf for literally everything is not good for the game. Sometimes it's better to buff other things than nerf something into oblivion.

Harnesh · August 2014

Most of the time it isn't a particular skill its the unforeseen synergy between certain skills that cause problems. It would help everyone if Zenimax would create a way we could really get out and test how gear/skill changes effect PvP. As it is now on the PTS the only templated VR characters you can make are all on one faction. This leads to changes not really being tested at all in the PvP setting. Letting us knock each other over the head on the PTS would save us a lot of grief down the road.

bitaken · August 2014

Draxys wrote: »

I don't think the point was that balance is fine right now, simply that crying nerf for literally everything is not good for the game. Sometimes it's better to buff other things than nerf something into oblivion.

Quite right. Also, the reality is that most of the "OP abilities" we see in use right now - perceived as OP only because most non organized zergs get steamrolled by them - have counters most people do not want to put on their bars because they are considered "situational abilities" and not "general tools" Gameplay changed with this current patch for certain skill lines - players need to change their mindsets as well.

While balance feels like damage is too high right now - more defensive abilities have balanced some of that out for my group - players still running the same old build they had beforehand are going to feel like the "OP abilities" are out of control OP and something needs to be done.

Beedles · August 2014

lol on all the L2p people that think they can bust up a huge zerg and win please post a video of your uberness or shut it.

ThyIronFist · August 2014

Well said. But the impulse, barrier stacking, uber-healing, purging zergballing needs to go away. AoE caps need to be removed, and skills such as Immovable should require 5 pieces of heavy armour.

I don't want abilities to be nerfed to the ground. I want PvP to be fixed, and certain skills/abilities tweaked.

I think we can all agree on that.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · August 2014

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Well said. But the impulse, barrier stacking, uber-healing, purging zergballing needs to go away. AoE caps need to be removed, and skills such as Immovable should require 5 pieces of heavy armour.

I don't want abilities to be nerfed to the ground. I want PvP to be fixed, and certain skills/abilities tweaked.

I think we can all agree on that.

Yes we can.

kijima · August 2014

But I want my win button...

ztEygZ3.jpg?1

SBR_QuorTek · August 2014

As it is, it is not really the classes themself that is the problem, but alot of the stuff that can be additionally added to it.

Each class has some special ways of handling as it is and a different approach as well with either encounter or to avoid.

Obviously broken skills such as if people recall how the vampires worked around launch and the likes require a fix though, but that is not a nerf but just fixing a broken string.

Technically armor is broken, since people can do just everything wearing light armor only.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · August 2014

I agree that not everything should be nerfed to oblivion, but there are things that need tweaking, and not every counter works because there's always counters to counters of counters. Take for example the current AD emp on Haderus. Of course emps always find ways to break builds and maintain an iron grip on their power, but it makes for poor PVP. Currently she uses an impulse spam build, and she just doesn't die unless 50 people gang up on her and stun her. But the thing is, it doesn't seem to matter about soul crush or whatever, or lethal arrow with heal reduction, or negate, if it's going to be a rinse and repeat every time she rezzes and comes back out then our sieges get nowhere except people like myself logging off in frustration. It's the same thing I saw on Vol where 1 person can fight almost nonstop against two or more full raids, and not only that breeze through camps and npcs like nothing.

Issues like this need to be given the Barney Fife treatment before they end up discouraging any form of pvp, and pvp is not pvp without the Versus element. If even the reduced number of servers end up nothing more than a big pve playground for the current dominating faction, there will be no PVP.

Anazasi · August 2014

I play a Templar mix between support and tank. Apparently I'm not very good but I have a lot of fun. I always use efficient purge. I always use retreating maneuvers. I'm probably 50/50 heals. I know to either use barrier or solar disturbance when I see a bat swarm. And I'm hardly ever in a group. You see pvp isn't broke, the classes don't need nerfing. Players need to just learn how to work together. Honestly, for a person who doesn't group often and isn't on a voice chat I have reasonable cognition of myself and my surroundings. Yeah I die but in most cases its because its me against 4 or someone comes along and sucks up my heals, or I'm laughing to hard to worry one way or the other.

Harnesh · August 2014

On the whole I agree that the call for nerfing goes overboard but there are definitely some things that need some tweeks and just because something has a counter doesn't mean it may not need to be looked at.
There is usually a sure fire way to tell when your starting to have a problem and that's when you start seeing a vast majority of the player base using a single skill, build, armor or whatever. A clear example of this is light armor I think most people agree there needs to be some changes. Those changes don't necessarily have to be a nerf to light but what you do need is diversity. When something becomes a must have to be competitive its time to make some changes.

Maulkin · August 2014

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Well said. But the impulse, barrier stacking, uber-healing, purging zergballing needs to go away. AoE caps need to be removed, and skills such as Immovable should require 5 pieces of heavy armour.

I don't want abilities to be nerfed to the ground. I want PvP to be fixed, and certain skills/abilities tweaked.

I think we can all agree on that.

A lot of misdirected comments I think.

First, you forget to mention that AoE cap removal will greatly improve the healing of zergs (grand healing currently only hits 6 people) and will probably more than compensate for the increased damage the zerg will take.

Barrier stacking is pointless, changing it will do nothing. We normally find 1 barrier is more than enough and when that goes away we put up another one. No need to stack it. By all means stop it from stacking I agree it's too much. But it will make no difference to big groups.

Not sure why you want purge nerfed. That's a new one. How do you hope for keeps to change hands if people can't purge oil dmg? Nobody will want to get farmed at keep choke-points, so the whole AvAvA side of the game will collapse if purge is changed. You might want this, I'd guess people don't.

As far as immovable becoming a 5-heavy skill. I'm all for it. A lot of people in our large group already run 5 pieces of the heavy PvP Set: Bastion of the Heartland, with spell cost reduction rings and necklace. 5% less from players + 20% less from siege and player AoE = 25% less from things like Bat Swarm, Impulse, Standard etc

Finally Impulse. I say that on every thread and everyone avoids to comment on it. The best zergs have already moved away from Impulse as their main damage dealing ability. Each class has better abilities that use synergies to deal higher damage or heal. Things like Sap Essence, Liquid Lightning, Fragmented Shield, Blazing Shield, Mystic Orb. Impulse nerfs will have 0 impact on the zerg. Think on that for a sec.

CapuchinSeven · August 2014

UPrime wrote: »

2 points:

1. People can cry nerf all the want, that doesn't mean it will actually get nerfed. Often when you have a lot of people calling for a nerf it does in fact need it, but it's not done because they were crying. It's because the underlying data supported the nerf.

2. Nerfs are NOT just because of PvP. PvE needs balance as well. You should never have abilities that are the best out of a group of similar abilities in all situations. If you do, you end up with less choices of viable builds.

This this this this this.

I've worked, and know developers, in the game industry. The idea that nerf's happen because of forums is just so full of lol, I can't help but laugh whenever I see posts where people 100% believe that a nerf has happened because of lots of forum posts.

Let me give you a hint back OP, correlation does not imply causation. It doesn't happen, it's in your head, it's a total fantasy, nerf's don't happen just because of forum posts.

And the fact is when something is overpowered in PVP there is a good chance it's greating PVE issue, PVE mobs just don't come to forums, that's the only difference.

Vizier · August 2014

Here is what I'm hearing from OP.

"Move along! There's nothing to see here. Stop your whining, everything is fine. Your all just not doing it right. I'm part of a well rounded group and your not. Don't touch my Bat Swarm MoFos...blah, blah.

Make my ultimates give virtually no visual cues too and we'll hear some crying about it.

BS needs some tweaking. Many things in this game need some tweaking. And you are not the first person in ESO to give consideration to "counters." Good grief get over yourself.

Richard.A.Ferrellub17_ESO · August 2014

What the counter system should look like:
Rock > Scissor
Scissor > Paper
Paper > Rock

What it does look like:
Rock > Scissor
Scissor > Paper
Paper > Rock
OP ability of the month > Rock + Scissor + Paper

Your argument is invalid.

That being said, I agree that OP ability should not be "nerfed into oblivion" but small tweaking is due.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · August 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Well said. But the impulse, barrier stacking, uber-healing, purging zergballing needs to go away. AoE caps need to be removed, and skills such as Immovable should require 5 pieces of heavy armour.

I don't want abilities to be nerfed to the ground. I want PvP to be fixed, and certain skills/abilities tweaked.

I think we can all agree on that.

A lot of misdirected comments I think.

First, you forget to mention that AoE cap removal will greatly improve the healing of zergs (grand healing currently only hits 6 people) and will probably more than compensate for the increased damage the zerg will take.

WHile you do have a point, individual heals will be stronger, I don't think you see the entire picture.

First and foremost, healing will be nerfed indirectly by the loss of the passive dodge chance the target cap provides. In a group of 24 thats 75%, more for larger groups.
That will be a LOT more healing to be done.

Second, healing in ESO is very much preventive: HoT based and passive(mutagen proc).
The reactive options we have are limited:
Barrier being an ultimate, rushed ceremony would still be blocked at 3 targets, blessing of protection has a slow animation and is only in a cone and healing wards targets only the lowest.
Most of these cost much more per hp healed than an uncaped AoE would cost per damaged done.

This two facts combined mean that while a larger group would be able to sustain uncoordinated attacks through hots, it wouldn't be able to react fast enough to a focus fire.
And in the case its healers were the best, it would still lose to mana attrition.

Larger groups will have organic pros and cons, more fire power and more fault tolerance, but vulnerable to gerilla tactics and slow to react.
It will work out great.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Finally Impulse. I say that on every thread and everyone avoids to comment on it. The best zergs have already moved away from Impulse as their main damage dealing ability. Each class has better abilities that use synergies to deal higher damage or heal. Things like Sap Essence, Liquid Lightning, Fragmented Shield, Blazing Shield, Mystic Orb. Impulse nerfs will have 0 impact on the zerg. Think on that for a sec.

I agree with your other points, and I wanted to comment on this too: You're right.
Impulse really isn't a problem in a world with uncapped AoEs.

It's severely limited by being centered around the caster, and with uncapped long range options coming into the equation, an impulse train would get wrecked without even getting in range. Just one volcanic rune would ruin their day.

bitaken · August 2014

Vizier wrote: »

Here is what I'm hearing from OP.

"Move along! There's nothing to see here. Stop your whining, everything is fine. Your all just not doing it right. I'm part of a well rounded group and your not. Don't touch my Bat Swarm MoFos...blah, blah.

Make my ultimates give virtually no visual cues too and we'll hear some crying about it.

BS needs some tweaking. Many things in this game need some tweaking. And you are not the first person in ESO to give consideration to "counters." Good grief get over yourself.

I have 3 vampires in my group on a regular basis. Bat Swarm is one of the easiest abilities to counter - walk away, use maneuvers and sprint away, BE away or slip away and you can avoid bat swarm. If you are dying to a bat swarm zerg try circle of protection and evil hunter. Turn your paper into rock in other words.

The abilities just got tweaked and people are crying - NERF!! like it's going to do something. Reality is you just make yourselves look bad and unable to adjust to a changing system.

GwaynLoki · August 2014

bitaken wrote: »

I have 3 vampires in my group on a regular basis. Bat Swarm is one of the easiest abilities to counter - walk away, use maneuvers and sprint away, BE away or slip away and you can avoid bat swarm. If you are dying to a bat swarm zerg try circle of protection and evil hunter. Turn your paper into rock in other words.

I was told the Turn Undead morph doesn't work and I never managed to make it work on a Bat Swarm myself.