I really honestly thought this was going to be a complaint about the /eat emote and how you only have half a loaf of bread.

Nocturnalfox wrote: »

This dev isnt the same one that developed TES you know, that was bethesda, also the publisher. Zenimax was hired to do MMO's because apparenly they were good at it.

Yea I know just with having the name Elder Scrolls and all you would think there would be a standard set but I am guessing not so much.

jalisar63b14_ESO wrote: »

OK, so... if i understood you.. you play the solo games ie skyrim.. whitchers.. yadayada. You are also new to the MMO realm so to speak.
There in lies the problem... Solo, stand alone, games like all those we all know, are done when they leave the factory.. done as in a complete product, and done as in the next content with regard to the game will have a 2 behind it.
MMO games are not, at release, or even on the day the servers all close EVER done.. MMO games evolve.. improve.. screw up.. It is what it is.
Now... I have never played a game that gave me bread, or slices of bread, or any example you listed which was nothing even CLOSE to game related.

That being said, there are many things I would like to see in this game. Things I would like to see fixed or changed. I haven't found anything that is just half developed and poof comes the invisible barrier... "YOU SHALL NOT PASS"

I hope they NEVER remove the sub fee. I would rather the game close its doors forever than have to deal with all the freebie fly by night FOTM gamers who log in just to cry about any number of moronic garbage people feel they are "entitled" to. Sub fees keep at least a portion of those gamers, who have the attention spawn of a baby knat, over tossing out their demands on the freebie games.

Name what it is exactly you have a problem with dude. Sure I have things I feel are just stupid. IE.. items made by you and me should not be identical.. frankly you just wont have the skill or the dedication to even come near competing. Items should have random stats, with crit options based on location, player skill, tools used, level of research... and resource. But that is only my opinion so why QQ.. PVP should be everywhere.. when all of the people who just simply put can not play the game without hand holding and a group are running around in towns spamming big boy spells... I should be able to gank them and melt down all their purple goodies.

Take care mate.

gawddamn so much win right here

Samasulee wrote: »

Nocturnalfox wrote: »

This dev isnt the same one that developed TES you know, that was bethesda, also the publisher. Zenimax was hired to do MMO's because apparenly they were good at it.

Yea I know just with having the name Elder Scrolls and all you would think there would be a standard set but I am guessing not so much.

I love how people complain about bugs in ESO and then insinuate that it's because the team working on it is not the Bethesda team. As if they aren't putting in the effort or are focused more on the money or something.

Seriously, it's like those people have never played an Elder Scrolls game because those games are some of the buggiest I have ever seen, all the way back to Daggerfall.

Look at the games and tell me which one was without bugs on launch. Or when Bethesda stopped releasing patches and updates. Try playing those older games without community made patches or mods and tell me that they are less buggy that ESO.

Yes, this game had a rough start, which only makes sense. Code that works for 100,000 people can break at 200,000, and a change in this line can cause problems in that line for a completely different system when put under such large stress. There's no way to catch it all until a release actually happens.

This happened in Skyrim too, and they don't have the excuse of extra stress they can't test being applied to the code. Heartfire, for example, could shut down an important part of the main quest in Dawnguard and make it utterly impossible to complete or continue, and you wouldn't know that it had happened for several other quests later. When it happened to me I ended up losing about 20 hours worth of game play as a result. Bethesda did fix this eventually, but Heartfire also shut off the function of display cases and they never did fix that. Those are only two examples.

There have been patches and adjustments for ESO just about every week. The game is much less buggy than it was on launch and is about the same level as some of the TES games have been when Bethesda abandoned them to move on to the next project. And considering that the game has only been out since April, the team should be commended on that.

Both ZOS and Bethesda care about the world and do their best to take care of it. ZOS is more responsive to issues because it is a subscription based system, but it takes time to get it right. If you don't feel the game is right, leave it for a bit and come back at a later date. But don't waste time calling out the team difference as if that has anything to do with the state of the game. I've been with this series since the release of Daggerfall and I can honestly say that the ZOS team cared more than fixing their game than Bethesda itself ever has.

kewl wrote: »

jalisar63b14_ESO wrote: »

I hope they NEVER remove the sub fee. I would rather the game close its doors forever than have to deal with all the freebie fly by night FOTM gamers who log in just to cry about any number of moronic garbage people feel they are "entitled" to. Sub fees keep at least a portion of those gamers, who have the attention spawn of a baby knat, over tossing out their demands on the freebie games.

I second that emotion.

I also agree...just don't know what FOTM means?

Carnagan wrote: »

This happened in Skyrim too, and they don't have the excuse of extra stress they can't test being applied to the code. Heartfire, for example, could shut down an important part of the main quest in Dawnguard and make it utterly impossible to complete or continue, and you wouldn't know that it had happened for several other quests later. When it happened to me I ended up losing about 20 hours worth of game play as a result. Bethesda did fix this eventually, but Heartfire also shut off the function of display cases and they never did fix that. Those are only two examples.

Am I the only one who played Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim on PC with all the DLC content without being bombarded with bugs??

No I'm insinuating that I will forever attach the experience of TES to Bethesda and ESO to zenimax- which is right.
Bethesda whether they are an arm of Zeni or not gave me many fun years of rampaging across Tamriel in 4 games, 3 of which had expansions.
Zeni are still fixing it up. And as you rightly said its because its an MMO. IT is a different kettle of fish. My first issue was the whole imperial thing being sold differently from the main game (imp edition). And steadily there have been more issues creeping up.
Some I understand and let go, some I don't- Those ones are likely to be in my long as all hell topic replies lol

jalisar63b14_ESO wrote: »

PVP should be everywhere.. when all of the people who just simply put can not play the game without hand holding and a group are running around in towns spamming big boy spells... I should be able to gank them and melt down all their purple goodies.

Hahaha I love it!
There is alot of hand holding for filthy casuals (not directed at any individual, just general)

I also have my own views and opinions on the topic, but can't be bothered voicing it haha.

Samasulee wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

jalisar63b14_ESO wrote: »

I hope they NEVER remove the sub fee. I would rather the game close its doors forever than have to deal with all the freebie fly by night FOTM gamers who log in just to cry about any number of moronic garbage people feel they are "entitled" to. Sub fees keep at least a portion of those gamers, who have the attention spawn of a baby knat, over tossing out their demands on the freebie games.

I second that emotion.

I also agree...just don't know what FOTM means?

Flavor of the month.

Loligo wrote: »

- 15 minutes of LiveJasmine

True story...lmao
I've never been on it, but it seemed fitting

ViciousWayz wrote: »

FYI people, ZOS wasn't "hired" because they were good at it. Now yes, ZOS is good at MMOs, I really enjoy this one in comparison to other MMOs out there. However, ZOS is the PARENT COMPANY of Bethesda.

Also as far as the development process goes, do you actually think that Bethesda, a subsidiary of ZOS didn't have a hand in things whether it be lore, combat, creative direction, etc..? Regardless, Bethesda is one of the companies owned by ZOS.

Zenimax Media is the parent company.

Zenimax Online Studios does ESO. Subsidiary of Zenimax Media.

Bethesda Game Studios mades games. Subsidiary of Zenimax Media.

Bethesda Softworks publishes games. Subsidiary of Zenimax Media.

http://www.zenimax.com/legal_information

To the op; mmos aren't the same as single player games. New content is released, current content balanced or changed, the game evolves as the devs work with feedback from players. Single player finite games are just that; unless there is dlc or expansions, the best you can hope for is that the devs will patch any game-breaking issues before they start on their next project.

If you are playing an online mmo game, you will never have "the full loaf of bread" as long as the game is running. Overused example is WoW. If you want to play the full, completed game, you will be waiting for a while longer. They are still bringing out content/expansions. Your sub is paying for that continuing content. If you don't want to pay for ongoing content, look for single player, finite games.

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

FYI people, ZOS wasn't "hired" because they were good at it. Now yes, ZOS is good at MMOs, I really enjoy this one in comparison to other MMOs out there. However, ZOS is the PARENT COMPANY of Bethesda.

Also as far as the development process goes, do you actually think that Bethesda, a subsidiary of ZOS didn't have a hand in things whether it be lore, combat, creative direction, etc..? Regardless, Bethesda is one of the companies owned by ZOS.

Actually ZOS is the sister company and was created to make ESO. ZOM is the parent company.

jalisar63b14_ESO wrote: »

Solo, stand alone, games like all those we all know, are done when they leave the factory.. done as in a complete product, and done as in the next content with regard to the game will have a 2 behind it.

This unfortunately is no longer true. Games are now no longer truly completed as single player games still have bugs and glitches upon release, some worse than others. Also the $60 you pay only gets you the main meat of the game and not the full game hence why we have DLC. DLC is a way to release part of the game and then charge more to get the rest of it. Since people like to use Skyrim as a reference you can look at the release of that. It had so many bugs and errors it took Bethesda an extra 6 months to start releasing DLC for PS3 owners because of all the glitches it had. And that was considered a smooth launch by Bethesda standards. Plus you bought the game for $60 then it was another $20 to get another area that could have been included in the game, another $20 to get a second areas, and $10 to get housing. That's $110 fro a single player game. (Does not count Steam sales or price drops months after release.) So yeah if you think games are $60 and done when they leave the factory then you have successfully drank the Kool-Aid.

Bethesda and the ps3 have never worked well. Period. Starting with the ps3 and Oblivion, actually.

Only problem with your idea about the game not being done when it was released is that it really was done. You don't need the dlc to play Skyrim. The game functioned perfectly well before the dlc was released. I could and did play the whole Dragonborn questline from the executioner's block to watching the aurora ripple across the sky in Sovngarde after killing Alduin. The game was done. The dlc that added additional content was just that; additional content that added to the game. There were many people who declared they wouldn't buy the dlc. Their games worked. They couldn't adopt kids or build houses, but the full game of Skyrim; the story about Alduin and the end of the world was there, and complete. They chose not to get the added content.

I wouldn't have wanted to wait for the additional months it would have taken to get the dlc included in the original game, which would have increased the price as well. And the possible glitches and issues. It was while they were trying to patch a bug in the original game that they made the dragons fly backwards. Talos knows what would have happened if they'd have held off and released all the content together.....

Ow these forums make my head hurt when read before good coffee.

First off - I agree with you in one thing Samasulee. You are definitely unfamiliar with the MMO experience.

Second, I would postulate that the MMO experience is not a good UX for you.

Which...should be the end of the story, but somehow I doubt it will be.

Your analagoies are...flawed. Extremely. But I will see if I can work with them.

Your comparisons are worse. Now...I get it. You don't have an MMO to compare to. But you can not, should not, will never have a leg to stand on in an argument of this nature if you do - compare an MMO UX to a single player UX.

Even the government has figured that out - hence the "online material is not rated, user experience may change" warnings plastered everywhere.

You paid $140, yes - but at no time should it have been expected that you were paying for a "finished product", when purchasing an MMO. That was a poor assumption, based on irrelevant experience of single person console or pc based games.

You paid - for what was in the box (and yes you paid more because there was more in the box...personally I have too much other crap in my apartment, the digital Imperial was much simplier...and cheaper, but that was your choice - not really anyone elses problem). But you also paid for everything that "wasn't in the box yet" - key word YET. That's the part you missed. And that is a key difference between an MMO and a single player game.

You paid for the promise of content patches, being able to play with people from other places or friends, a shared experience that can't be defined and printed on a box.

Guess what? What comes with a price that also can't be printed on the box.

Now...if you don't give a damn about those things and that price...well - I reiterate, the MMO experience is not a good UX for you.

You didn't pay for a loaf of bread, get three slices and get told to come back for the rest of the loaf in a few days. You paid a deposit for the right to continue to buy your bread at this store because you can't get that brand bread anywhere else.

If you don't want that brand - buy a bread maker.

lol If you expect me to get irate back at you - I'm afraid you will have to try a bit harder. Not a slam, but I'm a Creative Director for a development firm. I babysit people who just want systems to "work the way I want, how I want, when I want regardless or reality or logic" for a living.

So by all means, get your angst out - I've seen worse - and I can give worse. At the end of the day - I'm not gonna really care, but I may make popcorn and enjoy the show. My feelings won't be hurt. Hopefully you can say the same.

1) I read the post. I saw a lot of circumstantial, objectified conjecture based on personal opinion, bias - and very LITTLE to no understanding of how programming, design, system implementation or a large corporation works.

2) I saw very little understanding of the phrase "[snip] happens".

3) I saw a lot of entitlement, without a lot of explanation for why anyone should care.

NOW...if what you want is to have your little temper tantrum and be ignored. I'm sure I can oblige, say the word.

I make no guarantee for the Internet as a whole. The culture online is if you want to "[snip]" be our guest, but the world is going to give back far better than you can give, because they will overwhelm you with sheer numbers if nothing else. Or as you say "the biggest jerk".

In the grand scheme of things do you want to know what your problems are? SMALL. Miniscule. Add them to the list, and the devs will get to them when they get to them.

It has nothing to do with ideals, or entitlement, or how much many you paid for a piece of plastic.

It has to do with REALITY.

So there is a bug with bows. Big whoop. Change out your weapon or wait until they fix it. At least with an MMO - they WILL eventually fix it. They might not fix it the way YOU want, when YOU want, or even in way that you think is better than the bug. But you know what? It's not your game. It's theirs. It's their baby, their vision, their code, and their time, sweat, blood and life.

You, me, and every other gamer out there chooses to be here - and no one actually cares if any one of us chooses to not be. No one has a gun to your head. But that doesn't mean we have any more power or say than THEY choose to give us. You are in their home, not your own private kingdom, version of heaven or even personal hell. Please get off the cross - we need it for a few other martyrs.

As for the Pink Armour - I really want to know what the colour pink did to mortally offend so many people. Go dye your armour if it bugs you so much. They gave you the capability. Use it, don't use it, quit the game because the colour pink is going to haunt your dreams until the end of your days. Whatever turns your touque.

If you want to HELP - make a bug report. Talk to the devs like there is actually a living, breathing, feeling human being on the other side of your computer monitor. Give them as much USEFUL information as you can - not conjecture and ranting. And then give them the common courtesy you'd give a friend, family member or random hobo on the street and be patient while they try to help you.

If you expect people here to beg you to stay - look at someone else. Most of don't really care. If you want to make us care - I recommend you be a contributing member of the culture. Whining, bad analogies and throwing around how much money you chose to spend...not likely to work for you. We've seen it before. As already stated you MISSED the last three DECADES of MMO history. You are not new, unique or even all that fragile of a butterfly.


NOW

If you'd like to have a reasonable conversation - well then we are going to have to follow some "basic mechanics" of debate first and establish the definitions.

"Basic Mechanics" - in a 30gb block of code, artifacts (the 3d models, textures, sound files, and other bits that aren't necessarily "code"...I use that loosely), and integration to take into account a million different ways some bozo can try and wire two pieces of hardware together don't exist.

And that is BEFORE you take into account personal aesthetic or preference.

Just making your character turn 90 degrees to the left when you hit a button requires linear algebra calculations.

No matter how fancy we make computer programs, how many buttons something like MAYA or Lightwave adds to their UI...that is the reality of code.

At some point, somewhere - we need to break it down to logic, we need to break down to step by step simple commands. We then need to break those commands down to zeros and ones...and when we combine all of those zeros and ones - we HOPE that this zero doesn't conflict with that one.

Because THAT is all the computer understands.

So YES...balancing ALL of the Not-so-basic after all mechanics, while also making sure that the new content doesn't conflict with ANY of the old content, while trying to keep the casuals and the hardcores, and every self-righteous idiotic gamer with an agenda happy - is going to be 1 step forward, 15 steps back.

Like it or lump it. I'm not going to argue it. We are in agreement.

What we are not in agreement with, is the sentiment that in some unknown, undiscovered reality it magically be some other way.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]