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Ways to improve AvA PVP (No, this is not an AoE/Zergball/Lag thread)

couchkyle25_ESO
couchkyle25_ESO
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There are many ways I feel that PVP can be improved, because as it stands I feel it is lackluster. All you do is run from Keep to Keep. No one caps Resources because it simply alerts enemies to your presence. You blast down walls in a few minutes and your inside. This is I feel a mindless, conveyor belt of repetition. There are many ways to improve the PVP mechanics. Here are some ideas I would personally think are awesome, other ppl are free to provide their own ideas. (I don't want to see complaining about Zergballs, and AoEs. Theres like 50 threads on that already). I am putting forth these ideas, in the hopes that Zeni will consider them. By making this thread I am in no way saying make this a priority right now, because enough people are already making it known what must be fixed NOW. These are simply ideas for the future, things Zeni can consider for future updates.

1. Resources affecting Sieges. What I mean by this is varied. First off make each Resource Node provide a Bonus to the Keep, Mine vastly improves Wall HP on Keeps, Mills vastly improve Gate HP and Farms provide Buffs to NPC soldiers at the Keeps, and improve their re-spawn times possibly. Also there are ways of having the players themselves reinforce the Keeps, which would also provide reasons for Claiming ownership. Give each Keep an Upgrade Tree, that players can purchase with Gold/AP. Players can purchase upgrades to make the Keeps easier to defend, Faster Caravan Travel, NPC Caravan Guards, buffing those guards, Increased Siege Capacity for defenders, Upgraded Walls, Gates, Keep Guards, that would stack with the Resource Node boosts. Likewise these bonuses would take time to research and thus requiring effort on the Factions part to hold the Keep. This would create Strong points in Faction held areas that would make is harder for the other Factions to steamroll over Keeps. Have this upgrade system affected by a whole new system added. Supply Caravans. We have "Supply Lines" but they don't do much of anything except provide Teleport Access. Have physical Supply Caravans travel across the map, that your faction has to protect if you want Keeps to have "Resources" to purchase the Upgrades (in addition to the AP/Gold requirement). This would likely require moving each Keeps resource nodes further away from the Keeps, so Supplies can come from those. Enemy factions can raid these Caravans and claim the Resources for themselves, taking them back to their own Keeps for upgrades. Taking Keeps atm feel trivial a lot of the time imo. It should be a challenge, and an accomplishment, to claim an enemies Keep.

2. Different combat mechanics. What I mean by this, is different ways to play the game. Upgrades to the Alliance War skills lines. More abilities and such, like I believe DAoC had "Wall Climbing" or something along those lines, maybe make that an Ultimate. Thats just one example of ways to shake up Cyrodiil PVP. I am not as good at such suggestions so leave that to others.

3. Buff Keeps in general. Keeps are a joke atm, just flat out increase Wall and Gate HP by significant amounts. It's too easy to bypass resources and blow down Keep walls within minutes. This to me makes Keeps feel like tissue paper, and frankly they feel a bit pathetic.

These are my current ideas. As I said feel free to add your own, my desire is to create a constructive, creative thread with which we can brainstorm ways to improve PVP for everyone in the future, make it more exciting for smaller groups, and get players more involved with helping their Faction. With all of you guys help we can brainstorm off of each other, make bigger, better ideas for Zeni to consider. These forums are but a small part of what Zeni looks at true, but I feel we need some more, calm, rational discussion about improving ESO as a whole. I too often see mindless complaining about trivial things. AoE Caps and Zergballs ARE a -serious- issue, I recognize this. But that is not this threads purpose, so please leave it out of here.
  • couchkyle25_ESO
    couchkyle25_ESO
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    how interesting, that no one seems to have an opinion about how to make the overall Cyrodiil experience better, aside from the 50 clone threads of the same 3 issues.
  • Neferath
    Neferath
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    Erm did you ever had a closer look at the keeps?

    They do get a bonus for every resource that is held.
    They do have an upgrade tree.
    They do get stronger walls and doors.
    They do get stronger npc's.

    All these things are ingame since beta times.
    The only thing here is that you cant "buy" these upgrades for AP/GP but have to ensure that you dont loose the corresponding resource since all keep updates are time-based and connected to the corresponding resource.

    Also buffing keeps in generall would'nt make things better at all. The only thing you are going to achieve with something like that is that smaller faction populations will fail to conquor a keep in general since there would be more time for defenders to get reinforcement troops into the battle.

    Regarding extended alliance skill lines, yes this would be a good thing but iirc, Zeni allready announced that at the QuakeCon Panel.
  • couchkyle25_ESO
    couchkyle25_ESO
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    Neferath wrote: »
    Erm did you ever had a closer look at the keeps?

    They do get a bonus for every resource that is held.
    They do have an upgrade tree.
    They do get stronger walls and doors.
    They do get stronger npc's.


    All these things are ingame since beta times.
    The only thing here is that you cant "buy" these upgrades for AP/GP but have to ensure that you dont loose the corresponding resource since all keep updates are time-based and connected to the corresponding resource.

    Also buffing keeps in generall would'nt make things better at all. The only thing you are going to achieve with something like that is that smaller faction populations will fail to conquor a keep in general since there would be more time for defenders to get reinforcement troops into the battle.

    Regarding extended alliance skill lines, yes this would be a good thing but iirc, Zeni allready announced that at the QuakeCon Panel.

    Do they really? They currently seem to make little to no difference, as Walls get blasted down with ease, regardless of these supposed upgrades. And I have not once seen a visible upgrade tree, that can be examined. Screenshots would be nice. Regardless, I feel my point remains mostly valid. There is always ways the game can be improved.
  • Neferath
    Neferath
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    Since the EU server is down till at least 11pm MEST i can't provide you a screenshot today but perhaps the one or other NA player would be kind enough to do so.
  • couchkyle25_ESO
    couchkyle25_ESO
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    Neferath wrote: »
    Since the EU server is down till at least 11pm MEST i can't provide you a screenshot today but perhaps the one or other NA player would be kind enough to do so.

    Tell me is Ownership required to see this? I suspect thats why I've never seen it. Regardless it sounds like a system that desperately requires more player involvement. Most ppl don't give a crap about the resources right now, If players were more active in how these things happened I feel the experience would improve. Supply Caravans for example, would be perfect for small group PVP. defending these things from enemy raids. That is what I am trying to do here. So anyone is free to politely disagree with my ideas, submit their own, w/e. This is for constructive PVP brainstorming.
  • Neferath
    Neferath
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    Actually you should be able to see this while talking to the quartermaster inside of the keep. But a double click at the keep symbol on your map should work too iirc.
    At least if the keep belongs to your faction.
  • Skafsgaard
    Skafsgaard
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    @couchkyle25_ESO‌

    There is a tree for upgrades, but yeah it's a little meh. If you go to a keeps siege merchant and chose the option to 'Inspect Keep' you can glace at some of the boni currently connected to you that keep.

    Caravans I guess could be fun for ppl think it is fun to hunt down npcs in a AvA area - i guess could be an addition of some sort. But on I think they should somehow be connected to skirmishes outside of cyrodiil and have caravans come from home alliances and go to a keep (with upgrades) and not resources. What I REALLY like is the suggestion that you can spend AP or Gold to upgrade some stuff for a keep. Like fixed anti siege that doesnt count toward the limit number (20) and maybe a few permanent oils or traps or whatever (moats anyone?). This way it would encourage guild to try and defend a keep after claimed ownership and not just go back to 3 boss farming.

    But I like your input and keep it coming!
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited supports hundreds of players on screen at once in an open world fight for control of Cyrodiil. Get ready for the most intense online PvP experience ever created, with The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited.

    Yes, I am ready...


    Source:
    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/game-guide/the-alliance-war
  • couchkyle25_ESO
    couchkyle25_ESO
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    Ok just went and checked, and I cannot believe I never saw that before. Regardless that only addresses one of my points. Even then I feel it is inadequate in it's current state.
  • couchkyle25_ESO
    couchkyle25_ESO
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    Skafsgaard wrote: »
    @couchkyle25_ESO‌

    There is a tree for upgrades, but yeah it's a little meh. If you go to a keeps siege merchant and chose the option to 'Inspect Keep' you can glace at some of the boni currently connected to you that keep.

    Caravans I guess could be fun for ppl think it is fun to hunt down npcs in a AvA area - i guess could be an addition of some sort. But on I think they should somehow be connected to skirmishes outside of cyrodiil and have caravans come from home alliances and go to a keep (with upgrades) and not resources. What I REALLY like is the suggestion that you can spend AP or Gold to upgrade some stuff for a keep. Like fixed anti siege that doesnt count toward the limit number (20) and maybe a few permanent oils or traps or whatever (moats anyone?). This way it would encourage guild to try and defend a keep after claimed ownership and not just go back to 3 boss farming.

    But I like your input and keep it coming!

    I was very hesitant to mention Fixed defensive positions, but it was an idea that I had. I am unsure if people would enjoy that concept. The Caravans can come from anywhere really, just mentioned the Farms and such because frankly, if they came from the Alliance lands itself, the chances of ever getting resources to your distant holdings (Say DC controlled Alessia) is very slim, making it ridiculous to ever try and fortify these Keeps. Unless of course you want to risk taking Resources there yourself to spend on upgrades, your whole Group can act as Supply caravans in addition to the NPC caravans. Running resources to the distant front line Keeps. Of course something would have to be done about the Trans system in this situation, otherwise that concept is pointless.
    Edited by couchkyle25_ESO on July 30, 2014 1:14PM
  • Skafsgaard
    Skafsgaard
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    Yes, I see what you mean. Another thing im concerned with is introducing too much PvE in there (npcs etc). It feels good that a few ppl can also contribute and dont have do be too frightful of NPCs but rather enemy players.

    One thing thought, when a full group is defending a keep (and they dont have to be organized in TS, just group chat is often enught for defense) keeps are hard to take (or at least CAN be if done properly). I think empty keeps should remain open to ninja tactics, this is also a tactical concept, take easy keeps and 'starve' enemies for points and good travel routes. Fixed sieges should not 'always' be active, but only if a player chooses to handle the big bad trebuchet fx.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited supports hundreds of players on screen at once in an open world fight for control of Cyrodiil. Get ready for the most intense online PvP experience ever created, with The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited.

    Yes, I am ready...


    Source:
    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/game-guide/the-alliance-war
  • Neferath
    Neferath
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    Well an option of course would be to bring in this Caravan idea as some sort of daily player mission.

    If you accept the mission, you'll have to lead a caravan of say 4 pack horses to the designated keep / lumber mill / mine / farm within a given time window starting at the northern or southern gate of your alliance. These pack horses are valid targets for enemy players. Using the transitus network while doing so will abort the mission, just like dying will abort it.

    You could also think of having a single player and a group version of this quest.

    Single player: Two fast pack horses, 1 needs to survive in order to fulfill that mission.
    Group: 8 slow pack horses, 6 need to survive in order to fulfill that mission.
  • Dilly_Waffles
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    I'm not sure about caravans. What about from 3am to 9am when virtually no one is on? Resources will just build up and their quantity will make them almost worthless.

    Similarly if a faction nightcaps and uses resources to defend keeps it could make PvP unplayable. Imagine being locked into your gate because a faction night capped and fortified nearly every keep. Keeps can already be difficult to take with ten to fifteen members between 9am and 5pm, with these upgrades and how much you want them to make a difference it would be near impossible. You'd have to wait until primetime when you could get a large enough group to co ordinate an attack. But this could end up killing PvP during daytime hours.
  • Neferath
    Neferath
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    I'm not sure about caravans. What about from 3am to 9am when virtually no one is on? Resources will just build up and their quantity will make them almost worthless.

    Similarly if a faction nightcaps and uses resources to defend keeps it could make PvP unplayable. Imagine being locked into your gate because a faction night capped and fortified nearly every keep. Keeps can already be difficult to take with ten to fifteen members between 9am and 5pm, with these upgrades and how much you want them to make a difference it would be near impossible. You'd have to wait until primetime when you could get a large enough group to co ordinate an attack. But this could end up killing PvP during daytime hours.

    Simply solution to this would be: Caravans dont improve your keep but give the player / players AP + gold only. I guess this kind of mission still would / could be fun.
  • Dilly_Waffles
    Dilly_Waffles
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    It's still free gold and AP for people who nightcap.

    Imagine playing all day to bring up your AP only to be beaten on the leaderboards by people who come on at 3am, basically playing PvE and capping all keeps, then lapping up all the reserve AP from caravans.

    It is a cool mechanic and if used fairly it would be great fun. But we're talking about people who would gladly use an exploit or hack to kill you and then teabag your corpse, fair isnt in a couple of player's vocabularies
  • Neferath
    Neferath
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    I fully understand your concerns @Dilly_Waffles but since we allready have our daily missions und cyrodiill quests who allow you exactly that i personally would'nt see a problem with these caravan missions.

    They only would bring in some more diversity and another reason for your alliance to capture and hold keeps since no keep = no caravan mission.
  • Skafsgaard
    Skafsgaard
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    @Dilly_Waffles‌ ceraintly valid points and i think you are right in your assumptions. Another way to combat this is make more content (PvP) for smaller groups in Cyrodiil, ie other stuff than only taking keeps.

    But as it is i think the current system is all right, but yes more dailies et al would be welcome.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited supports hundreds of players on screen at once in an open world fight for control of Cyrodiil. Get ready for the most intense online PvP experience ever created, with The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited.

    Yes, I am ready...


    Source:
    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/game-guide/the-alliance-war
  • couchkyle25_ESO
    couchkyle25_ESO
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    Here is the thing, The caravans alone mean nothing. Once an enemy takes a Keep, the Resource Counter would reset to Zero for that Keep. They wont just stay that way. Honestly GW2 does that, and before their AoE Cap that crippled PVP they had no issues with it. There will always be ppl who farm basically free Gold and AP during the Off hours, regardless of what is done. All I know is more diversity in Cyrodiil gameplay is desperately needed.
  • arkansas_ESO
    arkansas_ESO
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    There are already traveling siege merchants in Cyrodiil, usually accompanied by a faction guard or two. Making those NPCs a viable target and a way for smaller groups to help out in PVP would be nice, because as of now I don't think they affect anything.


    Grand Overlord 25/8/17
  • couchkyle25_ESO
    couchkyle25_ESO
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    See thats the thing. The Imperial City adds a whole new dynamic to this. While I personally think the way they describe it is too restrictive,(only one at a time) The City also can be implemented into this System. Upgrading each district with different NPC defenses for when the other Factions come into town. There are so many ways to make this system so much better.
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