4th resource for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing

Kiljaz · August 2014

To fix the imbalance of magicka vs stamina in AvA, it would be great to have a 4th resource dedicated to blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

Rename the stamina attribute to dexterity or strength and have it used for all weapon skills (excluding restoration and destruction staff), and make a 4th resource called stamina or endurance that is used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

This way, no one has to sacrifice their damage for mobility and defense.

You should also of course then retask things within armor skills to reduce the usage of the new stamina or endurance bar for tanks so they can block longer, assassins so they can stealth and run faster, etc...

Comments?

AlexDougherty · August 2014

If you assign all those things to something other than stamina, then what does your stamina bar do??

Also Stealth doesn't use stamina, at least I've never stopped stealthing because I ran out of stamina.

SirAndy · August 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

If you assign all those things to something other than stamina, then what does your stamina bar do??

Also Stealth doesn't use stamina, at least I've never stopped stealthing because I ran out of stamina.

Stealth uses stamina if you're moving, just like sprinting does.

I agree with the OP, the current system will never be balanced.
It's next to impossible to get this right while using stamina for three distinct usecases compared to only two for magicka.

A 4th resource would solve this problem ...

jrgray93 · August 2014

I've been pushing for this to be looked into for a while. It only makes sense. I can shield charge and roll once and suddenly my stamina abilities are useless. With magicka, I don't have to worry about weighing survival against damage output.

Kiljaz · August 2014

Yes, this system is the reason for the current imbalance.

Innocente · August 2014

This should have been in the game from Day One. And having ALL class skills be based on Magicka was just a cheap shortcut instead of designing true Melee class skill lines. Pretty shameful, actually.

Rune_Relic · August 2014

Already said this myself...no argument from me.

Kiljaz · August 2014

Innocente wrote: »

This should have been in the game from Day One. And having ALL class skills be based on Magicka was just a cheap shortcut instead of designing true Melee class skill lines. Pretty shameful, actually.

I wish... I'd be happy to get it in 1.4 though...

Jice · August 2014

Wouldn't it be easier to map everything skill bar based to one stat and everything combat based to the other?

To me I think all skills should be using magika and spell crit while anything mouse attack based like heavy attacks and blocking should be stamina based. I'd happily pay stamina for heavy attacks if they happened faster and crit harder which would also solve the problem of spell weaving and create an actual unique play style.

Mouse Vs Keyboard instead of 'icon using blue' vs 'icon using green'. And it'd mean anyone dumping into stamina would have much stronger white damage instead of skill damage and be able to get in more heavy attacks than a skill based user. To me the fun of DW is actually the mouse attacks, not the "confusing and easily replicated better with class skills" weapon skills. And it's a more possible suggestion than adding a 4th ****ing skill.

Kiljaz · August 2014

The 4th skill would actually be easier to implement.

rotiferuk · August 2014

Kiljaz wrote: »

To fix the imbalance of magicka vs stamina in AvA, it would be great to have a 4th resource dedicated to blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

Rename the stamina attribute to dexterity or strength and have it used for all weapon skills (excluding restoration and destruction staff), and make a 4th resource called stamina or endurance that is used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

This way, no one has to sacrifice their damage for mobility and defense.

You should also of course then retask things within armor skills to reduce the usage of the new stamina or endurance bar for tanks so they can block longer, assassins so they can stealth and run faster, etc...

Comments?

A fourth resource is not required. All ZOS need to do is raise the stamina cap, increase stamina weapons damage and reduce the amount of stamina used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, stealth, etc.

Circuitous · August 2014

It really would solve a bulk of the issues outright.

Morduil · August 2014

This thread also discusses the issue

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1135393

To quote my own proposal from that, with apologies for repetition:

Morduil wrote: »

One relatively simple change that would help this imbalance would be to make sprinting on foot the same mechanic as sprinting on horseback - have it not deplete the main stamina bar, but instead a smaller one underneath. The mechanic is already in the game, so I don't suppose it would be wildly difficult to implement.

To take it further, I don't see why the same principle couldn't be used for blocking, breaking free and dodging. If the devs did that, it seems to me it would go a fair way to helping stamina as a resource compete with magicka, without unbalancing any other aspect of the game.

NadiusMaximus · August 2014

But if they fix it, all the dress wearing stick bangers will say we are op.

phaneub17_ESO · August 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

If you assign all those things to something other than stamina, then what does your stamina bar do??

Weapon Ability resource?

I would like an Endurance bar for all those other activities. Although to make it fair for both sides of the line, tie it in with health, the higher your health the more Endurance you have while leaving both Magicka and Stamina for abilities only.

Faulgor · August 2014

No, please, never. This would degrade stamina builds to physical mages, and is not in line with TES at all. Fatigue/Stamina is supposed to be used for these kind of actions - sprinting, blocking, dodging, etc. That means, stamina builds should be very, very good at those things.
Instead of removing those actions from stamina, their effectiveness should increase with your maximum stamina. For example, if you don't spec into stamina, your dodge roll should be much, much slower. This way, stamina builds get more out of stamina than non-stamina builds for having to spend the same resource for combat abilities as well.

Rune_Relic · August 2014

rotiferuk wrote: »

Kiljaz wrote: »

To fix the imbalance of magicka vs stamina in AvA, it would be great to have a 4th resource dedicated to blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

Rename the stamina attribute to dexterity or strength and have it used for all weapon skills (excluding restoration and destruction staff), and make a 4th resource called stamina or endurance that is used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

This way, no one has to sacrifice their damage for mobility and defense.

You should also of course then retask things within armor skills to reduce the usage of the new stamina or endurance bar for tanks so they can block longer, assassins so they can stealth and run faster, etc...

Comments?

A fourth resource is not required. All ZOS need to do is raise the stamina cap b][i]benefits magicka users[/i][/b, increase stamina weapons damage and reduce the amount of stamina used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, stealth, etc. b][i]benefits magicka users too[/i][/b

So basically what you are saying is lets increase stamina for everyone.....then we are in exactly the same position as we started. Magicka users get stamina + magicka resource for combat, Stamina users just get stamina for combat.
+
Errrmmm No! 4th resource pool please. Would you prefer me to say ..lets dump magicka and everyone just use stamina for attack and defense ? that's fair....evryones in the same boat then.

You have to take the stamina bonus out of magicka users hands or give a resource to stamina users to make up for the shortfall.

Tabbycat · August 2014

I wouldn't be against strength being used for melee weapon skills.

I think the bow should still use stamina, though, since it is a ranged weapon.

Staves are fine using magicka.

Of course it just means more things to invest your attribute points in.

MonkeyAssassin24 · August 2014

Faulgor wrote: »

No, please, never. This would degrade stamina builds to physical mages, and is not in line with TES at all. Fatigue/Stamina is supposed to be used for these kind of actions - sprinting, blocking, dodging, etc. That means, stamina builds should be very, very good at those things.
Instead of removing those actions from stamina, their effectiveness should increase with your maximum stamina. For example, if you don't spec into stamina, your dodge roll should be much, much slower. This way, stamina builds get more out of stamina than non-stamina builds for having to spend the same resource for combat abilities as well.

I actually agree with something more in line with this. Making point allocation into stamina enhance the defensive mechanics and weapon abilities would not only help pure stamina builds, but could also help players to create some interesting hybrids. I've been on the side of switching defensive abilities to a 4th bar (like horse stamina) for a while but I actually think this would be better, also it would help keep the three resource system intact so all of us ES lovers won't feel dirty about seeing a new bar we're not accustomed to

nicholaspingasb16_ESO · August 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

If you assign all those things to something other than stamina, then what does your stamina bar do??

Also Stealth doesn't use stamina, at least I've never stopped stealthing because I ran out of stamina.

Hmm I don't know... Maybe it uses stamina abilities?

rotiferuk · August 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

rotiferuk wrote: »

Kiljaz wrote: »

To fix the imbalance of magicka vs stamina in AvA, it would be great to have a 4th resource dedicated to blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

Rename the stamina attribute to dexterity or strength and have it used for all weapon skills (excluding restoration and destruction staff), and make a 4th resource called stamina or endurance that is used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

This way, no one has to sacrifice their damage for mobility and defense.

You should also of course then retask things within armor skills to reduce the usage of the new stamina or endurance bar for tanks so they can block longer, assassins so they can stealth and run faster, etc...

Comments?

A fourth resource is not required. All ZOS need to do is raise the stamina cap b][i]benefits magicka users[/i][/b, increase stamina weapons damage and reduce the amount of stamina used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, stealth, etc. b][i]benefits magicka users too[/i][/b

So basically what you are saying is lets increase stamina for everyone.....then we are in exactly the same position as we started. Magicka users get stamina + magicka resource for combat, Stamina users just get stamina for combat.
+
Errrmmm No! 4th resource pool please. Would you prefer me to say ..lets dump magicka and everyone just use stamina for attack and defense ? that's fair....evryones in the same boat then.

You have to take the stamina bonus out of magicka users hands or give a resource to stamina users to make up for the shortfall.

A fourth resource is ridiculous. If you choose to play a character which uses physical weapons (bow / sword / shield / heavy armour) and does lots of physical things it IS going to get tired faster than a character which uses cloth and staves.

AFAIAC the ONLY real issue with stamina builds is their lack of damage. So ignore my previous suggestion and just increase damage for stamina builds.

Rune_Relic · August 2014

rotiferuk wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

rotiferuk wrote: »

Kiljaz wrote: »

To fix the imbalance of magicka vs stamina in AvA, it would be great to have a 4th resource dedicated to blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

Rename the stamina attribute to dexterity or strength and have it used for all weapon skills (excluding restoration and destruction staff), and make a 4th resource called stamina or endurance that is used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, and stealthing.

This way, no one has to sacrifice their damage for mobility and defense.

You should also of course then retask things within armor skills to reduce the usage of the new stamina or endurance bar for tanks so they can block longer, assassins so they can stealth and run faster, etc...

Comments?

A fourth resource is not required. All ZOS need to do is raise the stamina cap b][i]benefits magicka users[/i][/b, increase stamina weapons damage and reduce the amount of stamina used for blocking, sprinting, dodge rolling, stealth, etc. b][i]benefits magicka users too[/i][/b

So basically what you are saying is lets increase stamina for everyone.....then we are in exactly the same position as we started. Magicka users get stamina + magicka resource for combat, Stamina users just get stamina for combat.
+
Errrmmm No! 4th resource pool please. Would you prefer me to say ..lets dump magicka and everyone just use stamina for attack and defense ? that's fair....evryones in the same boat then.

You have to take the stamina bonus out of magicka users hands or give a resource to stamina users to make up for the shortfall.

A fourth resource is ridiculous. If you choose to play a character which uses physical weapons (bow / sword / shield / heavy armour) and does lots of physical things it IS going to get tired faster than a character which uses cloth and staves.

AFAIAC the ONLY real issue with stamina builds is their lack of damage. So ignore my previous suggestion and just increase damage for stamina builds.

So magicka users don't get exhausted with all their exertions and effect their defensive abilities ?

Obscure · August 2014

Don't need a fourth resource, just need opportunity costs for Magicka. The game is a effin magicka spamfest as it is. We don't need to add stamina into the mix to turn ESO into a Spamtopia of Spaminators. Stamina is perfectly fine in its balanced risk/reward sacrificing defense for offense. Magicka however requires the same risk/reward to bring it in line.

Let's throw up the mundane Stamina consumers related specifically to defense:
•CC Break
•Dodge
•Block

For CC break we make magicka based CC's consume magicka to break and stamina CC's require Stamina to break. For Blocking, we consume Magicka when blocking magicka skills and staff attacks, and Stamina when blocking stamina skills and weapon attacks. For Dodging we consume magicka when wearing Light Armor (alter the animation to look all magical), and Stamina when wearing Medium or Heavy (determined by chest piece).

Now let's throw up the mundane Stamina consumers related to mobility and offense:
•Bash
•Sneak
•Sprint

For each of these features we base which resource is consumed on whether or not the character is using a Staff or a Weapon. For staves we consume magicka, with nifty little alternate animations such as a Chameleon effect for sneak, a burst of magicka when Bashing, and a Flame Atronach style glide for sprinting. The current animations would be used for all other weapons, and naturally they would consume Stamina for these three features.

Suffice it to say ZOS has made a remarkable mess juggling just 3 resources. Tossing in a fourth? That's just asking for trouble.

SFBryan18 · August 2014

I think a lot of players seem to ignore that while block, dodge, and sneak use stamina, class abilities all use magic, so that is the balance. The problem with some players is they will not accept that a stamina class still needs some magic for their abilities. Run out of stamina because you rolled and can't do your weapon ability? That's why you have a class ability which uses magic, just like if the magic user ran out of magic and would resort to using his stamina to roll. I do believe rolling is way too expensive though, but if you create a fourth resource like this, what would the current stamina resource be for if the player was a mage? It would be a useless attribute.

Solariken · August 2014

I like the simple elegance of the current resource system. They should just beef up the passives in the stamina-based skill lines to provide the following:

1. Increased white damage based on max stamina
2. Reduced cost of dodge, block, and sprint
3. Increased stamina regen

Those numbers would be easily tweakable/balanced on a per skill line basis.

It makes sense that someone proficient in hand-to-hand combat and swinging heavy objects would be able to dodge, block, and roll better and more often than a dress-wearing wand-waver.

Obscure · August 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I think a lot of players seem to ignore that while block, dodge, and sneak use stamina, class abilities all use magic, so that is the balance. The problem with some players is they will not accept that a stamina class still needs some magic for their abilities. Run out of stamina because you rolled and can't do your weapon ability? That's why you have a class ability which uses magic, just like if the magic user ran out of magic and would resort to using his stamina to roll. I do believe rolling is way too expensive though, but if you create a fourth resource like this, what would the current stamina resource be for if the player was a mage? It would be a useless attribute.

Spec entirely for magicka, ignore stamina, wear a dress, and pick up a magic stick. Stamina is fundamentally unnecessary for this build style. It's a Block, Dodge, Bash, CC break, Sprint, and Sneak bar.

Spec entirely for stamina, ignore magicka, wear leathers or a bunch of scrap metal, and pick up a weapon. Magicka remains a fundamental necessity for this build style. It's a class skill bar that you cannot play your class without.

That's not balance. That's favoring dress wearing stick wigglers by default.

SFBryan18 · August 2014

Obscure wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I think a lot of players seem to ignore that while block, dodge, and sneak use stamina, class abilities all use magic, so that is the balance. The problem with some players is they will not accept that a stamina class still needs some magic for their abilities. Run out of stamina because you rolled and can't do your weapon ability? That's why you have a class ability which uses magic, just like if the magic user ran out of magic and would resort to using his stamina to roll. I do believe rolling is way too expensive though, but if you create a fourth resource like this, what would the current stamina resource be for if the player was a mage? It would be a useless attribute.

Spec entirely for magicka, ignore stamina, wear a dress, and pick up a magic stick. Stamina is fundamentally unnecessary for this build style. It's a Block, Dodge, Bash, CC break, Sprint, and Sneak bar.

Spec entirely for stamina, ignore magicka, wear leathers or a bunch of scrap metal, and pick up a weapon. Magicka remains a fundamental necessity for this build style. It's a class skill bar that you cannot play your class without.

That's not balance. That's favoring dress wearing stick wigglers by default.

That's a lot of abilities which you are casually sweeping under the rug. Are you saying a magic user doesn't need to block, dodge, sprint, or CC break?

Also, solution is to never spec entirely for stamina because class abilities all use magic. However many class abilities you choose to use on your bar, you should invest a certain percentage of your attributes into magic for those abilities. There is no such thing as a pure stamina build unless you choose to play without class abilities.

Every player is a mage in this game. That's just the way it is. If you choose to play without the spells from your class, that would be like a mage choosing to never block, dodge, sprint, or CC break. If you want a pure stamina class, you're playing the wrong game. There's only a balance between magic, health, and stamina, which every player has.

Now, if certain stamina abilities are too weak, that's a whole different issue.

Obscure · August 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I think a lot of players seem to ignore that while block, dodge, and sneak use stamina, class abilities all use magic, so that is the balance. The problem with some players is they will not accept that a stamina class still needs some magic for their abilities. Run out of stamina because you rolled and can't do your weapon ability? That's why you have a class ability which uses magic, just like if the magic user ran out of magic and would resort to using his stamina to roll. I do believe rolling is way too expensive though, but if you create a fourth resource like this, what would the current stamina resource be for if the player was a mage? It would be a useless attribute.

Spec entirely for magicka, ignore stamina, wear a dress, and pick up a magic stick. Stamina is fundamentally unnecessary for this build style. It's a Block, Dodge, Bash, CC break, Sprint, and Sneak bar.

Spec entirely for stamina, ignore magicka, wear leathers or a bunch of scrap metal, and pick up a weapon. Magicka remains a fundamental necessity for this build style. It's a class skill bar that you cannot play your class without.

That's not balance. That's favoring dress wearing stick wigglers by default.

That's a lot of abilities which you are casually sweeping under the rug. Are you saying a magic user doesn't need to block, dodge, or sprint?

No no no, not at all. Let me clarify. Those aren't abilities. Those are basic features of the game, mundane usability stuff. They consume Stamina no matter what you do. Magicka is only ever consumed when you use a skill (with a larger variety, with higher damage, and a better resource efficiency). Magicka specialized players can be both defensive and offensive at the same time with no risk. Stamina specialized players cannot be both defensive and offensive at the same time without risk.

To add insult to injury the magicka spec has a larger library of skills, it has better skills, and can use them at lower cost. Magicka specialization is hands down more varied, more effective, and more efficient.

In simplest terms magicka specialization is a BOTH offensive AND defensive specialization. Stamina is an EITHER offensive OR defensive specialization (that is also less efficient and less effective).

The best any player can do is be 50/50 stamina to magicka and expect to have something decent. Spec anywhere near as hard into Stamina as a Magicka specialized character spec's into Magicka and you've got a terrible build...that flat out can't spec to make it's skills as efficient or effective anyhow.

SFBryan18 · August 2014

Obscure wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

I think a lot of players seem to ignore that while block, dodge, and sneak use stamina, class abilities all use magic, so that is the balance. The problem with some players is they will not accept that a stamina class still needs some magic for their abilities. Run out of stamina because you rolled and can't do your weapon ability? That's why you have a class ability which uses magic, just like if the magic user ran out of magic and would resort to using his stamina to roll. I do believe rolling is way too expensive though, but if you create a fourth resource like this, what would the current stamina resource be for if the player was a mage? It would be a useless attribute.

Spec entirely for magicka, ignore stamina, wear a dress, and pick up a magic stick. Stamina is fundamentally unnecessary for this build style. It's a Block, Dodge, Bash, CC break, Sprint, and Sneak bar.

Spec entirely for stamina, ignore magicka, wear leathers or a bunch of scrap metal, and pick up a weapon. Magicka remains a fundamental necessity for this build style. It's a class skill bar that you cannot play your class without.

That's not balance. That's favoring dress wearing stick wigglers by default.

That's a lot of abilities which you are casually sweeping under the rug. Are you saying a magic user doesn't need to block, dodge, or sprint?

No no no, not at all. Let me clarify. Those aren't abilities. Those are basic features of the game, mundane usability stuff. They consume Stamina no matter what you do. Magicka is only ever consumed when you use a skill (with a larger variety, with higher damage, and a better resource efficiency). Magicka specialized players can be both defensive and offensive at the same time with no risk. Stamina specialized players cannot be both defensive and offensive at the same time without risk.

To add insult to injury the magicka spec has a larger library of skills, it has better skills, and can use them at lower cost. Magicka specialization is hands down more varied, more effective, and more efficient.

In simplest terms magicka specialization is a BOTH offensive AND defensive specialization. Stamina is an EITHER offensive OR defensive specialization (that is also less efficient and less effective).

The best any player can do is be 50/50 stamina to magicka and expect to have something decent. Spec anywhere near as hard into Stamina as a Magicka specialized character spec's into Magicka and you've got a terrible build...that flat out can't spec to make it's skills as efficient or effective anyhow.

I think that since dodge, block, sprint, sneak, and CC break all use stamina, and they all help the player in some situations, they can be considered abilities. They are just not interchangeable like the action bar is.

The simple truth is that all players use magic because of class abilities. Love it or hate it, that's the way it is. You can learn to balance your attributes with your chosen abilities, or you can poor them all into one place and handicap yourself. Your choice, but I doubt many magic users dump all their attributes into magic. Every player needs a good amount of health to survive.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · August 2014

Obscure wrote: »

That's not balance. That's favoring dress wearing stick wigglers by default.

I had every intention of contributing to this discussion, but when I saw "dress-wearing stick-wigglers" I found I simply could not go on.

I am awestruck by the awesomeness that is you.

/bow

AshySamurai · August 2014

I dont think 4th resource bar is a good idea. I agree that we need some changes but not the 4th bar. IMO it doesn't help in this situation. If you get this new bar for blocking and etc. you will need to boost it somehow. Now with stamina you can boost stamina and block/roll dodge and etc. more times that those who put all points/enchants in magika or health. So it's fair for yo but it's not for other players. Hope ZOS never do this. As for me, I like idea of balancing blocking system.