I feel like we weren't given super amazing direct survivability spells on purpose due to what our class mechanic is "Invisibility". With this invisibility, we should be very slippery for our opponents. We should be able to output precision surgical strikes and be slippery and pesky to our opponents. This is not the case however. Invisibility is countered by "Dots", "Magelight", "Detect Potions", "AOE Spells", "Mark Target", "Caltrops", "Breathing", and ofc "Unicorns and Double Rainbows".

If they fix our invisibility, we won't need god mod heals.

kijima wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

NB passives give us a significant advantage at combat start, and apply both the coming out of stealth and coming out of cloak.

When used properly, you can use cloak to give you a significant hit even during combat. I've started dual wielding, and with a quick cloak+vieled strike combo, the damage output is up there, at least in comparison to other stamina builds.

The real thing I feel is that Nightblades, without using cloak, are slowly being brought on par with everyone else. When they fix cloak ... will we be overpowered? For some players, no. Maybe most. But for many players that I know and play with, if you make us much stronger, we'll be unstoppable.

This isn't arrogance. This is observation. The flow of power still rests solidly in the hands of light armor and staves, but it's shifting. Like a frog boiling in water, many don't even notice. But more than once I've ended a veteran dungeon to hear 'I thought nightblades sucked', laughing.

Balance must always begin at the elite level of gamers who do the most with something. If you start with those who don't manage their resources, can't keep their timers in their mind, don't exploit enemy weaknesses and terrain advantages and perfect gear setups? You'll end up making it so that those who can do all that break the game, as we saw with dragonknights and sorcerers already since launch.

Sure, but if the player in PvP hears the animation and hits block before you get to him, you may as well be fitting he/she with a pillow. And if you don't kill them through the first rotation, you will be dead more times than not.

NB's are very easy to counter, the only time we aren't easy is when they are ranged and moving fast, rolling and dodging, blocking and so on using things like venom arrow from a distance. When it's one of those bigger three way fights in wabba for instance, my kill/die ratio is pretty good when I keep my enemies at arms length, that is if you are going with a stereotypical NB with bow and dual wield.

I've always been true to my idea of what an NB is and should be, medium armour, daggers and bow but now I've found that now in PvP I'm letting my guildies down, and this is upsetting me. I don't like to let anyone down, but I am because of my choice I've made and how zeni haven't after 4 mths done anything about the balance and skills of an NB. This is my only dislike for the game, serious... the only one.

Most of the NB's in my PvP guilds are running 7 light with desto/resto staff and they are beasts. I, by comparison die much easily, have less heals and pack far less punch. Don't get me wrong, when I'm fresh in front of the computer, got my gaming on, I'm okay but I'm not beastly when I compare myself to everyone else in my guild. And it's purely because of my choice of Bow, Dual wield and Medium armour. I know how to synergise my skills and passives, so don't try and give me tips on this. I've tested heaps of different things, talked to people that are well known and well respected NB's and they all say the same thing, "you'll simple do better with 7 light and staff"

I am now (and I hate saying this) starting to level up my light armour, resto/desto skills just to remain within a bulls roar of my guildies.

Will I switch back to stereotypical NB with medium armour, dual wield and bow when zeni bring that style of play inline with others getting around like Templars and DK's? Yes, absolutely.

Till then, and after so much inner resistance to wear a dress, I have indeed become a frock wearing boom stick holder. Thanks ZOS!

P.S. NONE, of my guild mates have asked or forced me to change, it's something that I've chose to do because overall I'm letting them down.

You are not letting your guild mates down, Zeni is letting you down along with every other NB forced to play the game in a way they do not prefer.

The only response we've seen is "Somewhere down the road..."

bgoldbeck21_ESO wrote: »

You are not letting your guild mates down, Zeni is letting you down along with every other NB forced to play the game in a way they do not prefer.

The only response we've seen is "Somewhere down the road..."

Thank-you for stating that, appreciate it and I'm not kicking myself for it either, and while I do realize that fact, it's still annoying to me.

I'm also a little older than the average age of players, and with that maturity ( I hopefully display lol ) you do become a little more patient. I think I've been patient enough, and it's not like ZOS don't know what is going on or how players feel on the matter. You could say it's an NB thing (which isn't true) but if you were to say it's a stam vs. magicka thing, or any armour vs. light, then you'd me on the money.

It's just that they have been slow to move on it with responses like "We are taking the balancing thing very slowly as small changes overnight can make massive changes to the way people play moving forward" - or words to that effect. I can't find the exact quote right now.

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

It's quite obvious it's not a class to blame, but magicka/light armor passive/stave synergy.

Agree 100%, NB's have some cool stuff going on, and with 7 light and staff equipped they can be just as deadly when setup right compared to any other class. I truly believe that. The thing is, they can hit hard with that setup as can any other class when they do the same thing. Dump two hand and go staff etc.

Thank Talos I didn't have an RP type of player in my head with a two handed sword in heavy armour, I'd have a lot more to whine about if that was the case.

Getting back to the OP's original topic though, even though NB's are pretty good (in 7 light and staff) stealth does need to be improved with that character. Fixing stealth/cloak would go a long way to helping that class.

Eloquently put together, and I agree with you 100%

I have very effectively used Shadowy Disguise (I think? It's the crit one...) in PvP. When the chips are stacked against you, you just need to get into your nightblade-instincts and be a scoundrel. Sure it breaks out sometimes, but coupled with some tricky maneuvers, it isn't actually that hard to get away using this skill. I remember one time I had just assassinated someone quickly out of stealth and three others rushed in on me. I used my stun breaker after being charged and then ran a few steps forward before popping into my Shadowy Disguise. The other three, assuming I had continued running in that direction, followed suit. However, just as I popped and went invisible, I turned around and quickly (I have the +plus stealth movement speed skill, Concealed Weapon I think? And I am not a filthy vampire, still fast if not crouching, but walking invisible with the speed bonus) moved in the opposite direction. The three kept running in the now-away-from-me direction and I hit my crouch button after a somewhat-safe distance. The invisibility faded a few fractions of a second after and I was "hidden." This allowed me to creep up on another of the group and attack him, finishing him as I was fallen upon again. This time I used my ultimate (The stun one that morphs into draining life from the closest enemy) on the remaining two and, during the stun, killed one. Leaving me with the VR12 tank, self-healer who was an incredible pain in the ass. However, with crafty use of my Shadowy Disguise and other abilities, I was able to bring him down. As long as you are able to outsmart your enemies rather than rely on an instant-saving ability that you're hoping Shadow Cloak will become, the Nightblade is quite effective. However, one thing I will say is that I agree with the notion that it should remove you from combat. Why? Well one thing is that our damage output could use a bit of a buff, especially if you are trying to play a traditional, rogue-ish assassin of a nightblade rather than use staves and heavy armor and all other types of gimmicks that feel rather un-befitting of a nightblade. Having Shadow Cloak take you out of combat would allow your abilities to do that "sneak attack" damage again, rather than just doing basically the same amount of damage as if you had done it without going invisible. I currently have the morph that allows me the 100% crit on spells and attacks while its active. And I'll say, not once yet have I said to myself, "Thank Stendarr for that crit!" because it really is not that noticeable at all.

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

we have not been heavily buffed. we have had zero buff's in survivability and zero buffs in anything to increase our damage output.
dragonights and sorcerers and now even templars have a skill i see that when they are low health they can cast it pushing out thier chests and it instantly fills thier health bar to max in less then a second.
we nightblades have No such skill, we cant compete toe to toe with anyone unless thier 10 or more levels below us.

we need that same survivability and damage output the other classes have along with a skill like they do that allows us to immediatly fill our health bar in combat just like they do.

You have the most single target dps...

Durham wrote: »

In pvp nbs are crazy ... nothing hits harder period ... what else to you want?

No. NBs can surprise attack but if you know how to counter you can render them pointless. Once that surprise attack is through, they're like a fish out of water. They lack the survivability outside of that initial rush.

What more do people want? they want their skills to work properly and they don't. They want better resource management instead of being forced to slot a skill that makes their attacks weaker. They want to play different styles instead of playing the meta with a dress and a stick.

kijima wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

NB passives give us a significant advantage at combat start, and apply both the coming out of stealth and coming out of cloak.

When used properly, you can use cloak to give you a significant hit even during combat. I've started dual wielding, and with a quick cloak+vieled strike combo, the damage output is up there, at least in comparison to other stamina builds.

The real thing I feel is that Nightblades, without using cloak, are slowly being brought on par with everyone else. When they fix cloak ... will we be overpowered? For some players, no. Maybe most. But for many players that I know and play with, if you make us much stronger, we'll be unstoppable.

This isn't arrogance. This is observation. The flow of power still rests solidly in the hands of light armor and staves, but it's shifting. Like a frog boiling in water, many don't even notice. But more than once I've ended a veteran dungeon to hear 'I thought nightblades sucked', laughing.

Balance must always begin at the elite level of gamers who do the most with something. If you start with those who don't manage their resources, can't keep their timers in their mind, don't exploit enemy weaknesses and terrain advantages and perfect gear setups? You'll end up making it so that those who can do all that break the game, as we saw with dragonknights and sorcerers already since launch.

Sure, but if the player in PvP hears the animation and hits block before you get to him, you may as well be fitting he/she with a pillow. And if you don't kill them through the first rotation, you will be dead more times than not.

NB's are very easy to counter, the only time we aren't easy is when they are ranged and moving fast, rolling and dodging, blocking and so on using things like venom arrow from a distance. When it's one of those bigger three way fights in wabba for instance, my kill/die ratio is pretty good when I keep my enemies at arms length, that is if you are going with a stereotypical NB with bow and dual wield.

I've always been true to my idea of what an NB is and should be, medium armour, daggers and bow but now I've found that now in PvP I'm letting my guildies down, and this is upsetting me. I don't like to let anyone down, but I am because of my choice I've made and how zeni haven't after 4 mths done anything about the balance and skills of an NB. This is my only dislike for the game, serious... the only one.

Most of the NB's in my PvP guilds are running 7 light with desto/resto staff and they are beasts. I, by comparison die much easily, have less heals and pack far less punch. Don't get me wrong, when I'm fresh in front of the computer, got my gaming on, I'm okay but I'm not beastly when I compare myself to everyone else in my guild. And it's purely because of my choice of Bow, Dual wield and Medium armour. I know how to synergise my skills and passives, so don't try and give me tips on this. I've tested heaps of different things, talked to people that are well known and well respected NB's and they all say the same thing, "you'll simple do better with 7 light and staff"

I am now (and I hate saying this) starting to level up my light armour, resto/desto skills just to remain within a bulls roar of my guildies.

Will I switch back to stereotypical NB with medium armour, dual wield and bow when zeni bring that style of play inline with others getting around like Templars and DK's? Yes, absolutely.

Till then, and after so much inner resistance to wear a dress, I have indeed become a frock wearing boom stick holder. Thanks ZOS!

P.S. NONE, of my guild mates have asked or forced me to change, it's something that I've chose to do because overall I'm letting them down.

For me, I run dw/bow (restostaff atm tho since I am still leveling it up) most of the time, and then switch to destro/resto staff as needed. The difference between resto staff and dw when attacking people is so vast too. It's unfortunate.

I play a Nightblade post 50 now and stealth works fine. Yes there is a few bugs, but shadowy disguise works as intended.

The mophing of shadowy disguise is better than the basic one which is only the 2.4 second invisibility. But its nice to get agro off you and onto another player in dungeons or dark anchors till you can morph it.

Once morphed you can either pick a 70% increase to critical hits for the next attack.
Or removes 1 DOT effect.

Lets go with the first one the 70% critical strike increase.
You pop the smoke and move around behind the target as you wind up with a heavy attack with your melee weapon of choice. If you already have marked target on them this attack is going to hurt a lot. (casting marked target and haste will not remove you from stealth. Shadowy disguise will because this is an ability.)
Now couple this tactic with the second ability Veiled Strike and its morphs this makes shadowy disguise a rather powerful ability. It is never meant to be used solely on its own to escape.

Added with the passives all maxed out this can be used to boost armour, stamina regen and health.

For an escape plan you need to use Agony or Crippling Grasp from the siphon line.
Invisibility potions that last for 4 seconds after casting the above and your away. Agony lasts for 12 seconds if the enemy doesn't get damaged. And once it ends they are effected by a dot. In pvp 12 seconds is a very long time.

On its own Shadowy Disguise is weak added with the passives and other abilities it has a very beautiful synergy with our class skills.

I read threads like this and can't decide if I'm that good or they are just that bad.

I suspect more of the latter

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Honestly I find threads like this incredibly confusing. It reminds me of the kind of conversation I used to have with a certain ex GF.

Ex gf- I am fat.
Me- No you aren't.
Ex gf- Yes I am.
Me- Trust me babe, you are a hottie.
Ex gf- You really think so?
Me- You could lose a few lbs I suppose.
Ex gf- Screw you jerk I am a hottie!
Me- Doh!

I mean seriously. Which is it? One guy says NBs are amazing in pvp and the next guy says they suck. You guys are making me dizzy. I'll have to lvl mine up more and decide for myself.

I suspect it's a matter of build and technique. And just like my ex GF.....average looking but magnificent none the less.

Some players have been riding the 'nightblades suck' train so long (since beta), that I have no doubt in my mind they'll still be spitting how broken and unusable we are in a year, no matter what changes ZOS makes or what people actually prove.

I mean, I definitely agreed we sucked during beta (for a time, I hear, we were golden, and then that changed). And I agreed we had serious issues at launch. But four months later, I can no longer say we are broken or useless or suck. It simply doesn't hold with my experiences.

---

"...they'll still be spitting how broken and unusable we are in a year, no matter what changes ZOS makes or what people actually prove."

**OR UNTIL THERE IS DATA TO PROVE SAID CHANGES HAVE MADE THE STAM-LEANING BUILDS (not only nb's btw)JUST AS EFFECTIVE as those magicka-infused-dancers.

I don't want a bone thrown my way here and there; I'd like to sit at the table across from my friend who always plays a mage in every MMO we play and partake of much the same 'banquet' food as he gets to. PERIOD.

So, specifically to you @Anastasia, it's not an argument that the class is broken. Or useless. Or can't complete the main questline. Or run group delves solo. Or carry itself in PvP.

Just that stamina builds aren't as good as magicka builds.

I could agree with that. Nothing wrong with nightblades, except fixing the cloak bugs and possibly giving blur a regen boost or let it activate 'from stealth' passives. Just that magicka and stamina builds aren't on par.

---

Right on ruze -- I know NB's are not completely broken - got friends who zoom along being amazing with it...but they have to breakneck fidget with every angle to do what they do. I admire that. I can do that, but I get little enjoyment from it. Additionally, some of us are of the breed that wants to think about being on top while playing an underdog . Usually though that is for a limited amount of time, and something workable gets done by a game's devs.

Thing is, in other mmo's lol the class balance issues were rarely huge...players would baitch and moan about this stat and that stat for certain classes, adjustments would be accomplished and then the next f-o-m build would emerge. Thats not what I am talking about. This ridiculous stam/magicka ratio problem is blatant. Not trivial. I want to see a reasonable response to the issue really that should NEVER have gotten into official BETA, let alone live launch. Make a fourth resource, change up something, do it.

I'm still trying to understand why they gave us the passive.
"Master Assassin" - "10% increased damage from stealth or invisibility."

Also, the ability
"Veiled Strike" - "Deals xx Magic Damage to target. If stealthed or invisible, attack sets target off balance and stuns them for 4 seconds."

And, the ability
"Shadowy Disguise "Gives player invisibility for 2.5 seconds and grants 70% Critical strike rating for duration."

These mechanisms should allow the Nightblade to do precise, surgical attacks on a specific target during the middle of combat, not just as an opener from long range teleport backstabs.

Yet, pulling this stunt off in the middle of combat would be an absolute miracle. Why should there be so many counters to a Nightblade's passive abilities? If you happen to be fighting someone with Magelight, you can't use the Nightblade's CORE class mechanics. Nor if you are dotted, or god knows how many other things that prevent this stupid invisibility spell from actually working. This class mechanic is why I decided to play a Nightblade in the first place and it doesn't even work properly.

If you happen to rely on this sort of playstyle, you will be severely let down. Yes, you can go right ahead and pickup a twig and some some robes, but for god sakes, this isn't what most people want.

Do other classes have mechanics and passives that are so easily countered? I don't really think so.

Btw, this has nothing to do with "Oh, NBs just suck cuz stamina sucks."

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You may want to correct the title of your thread, because it isn't about stealth, it's about the Dark Cloak/Shadowy Cloak ability.

And yes, AoE damage will remove any invisibility affects from a character. Nightblades aren't going to get special treatment for that. You're not meant to be able to go invisible within a wall of fire, because (presumably) someone will see the outline of your burning, flailing body.

Though Vampires can go invis, get 60% speed buff and can't be damaged while invisible.

Alphashado wrote: »

Honestly I find threads like this incredibly confusing. It reminds me of the kind of conversation I used to have with a certain ex GF.

Ex gf- I am fat.
Me- No you aren't.
Ex gf- Yes I am.
Me- Trust me babe, you are a hottie.
Ex gf- You really think so?
Me- You could lose a few lbs I suppose.
Ex gf- Screw you jerk I am a hottie!
Me- Doh!

I mean seriously. Which is it? One guy says NBs are amazing in pvp and the next guy says they suck. You guys are making me dizzy. I'll have to lvl mine up more and decide for myself.

I suspect it's a matter of build and technique. And just like my ex GF.....average looking but magnificent none the less.

Let me help you with this for your next girlfriend.

There is a duality here. Your girlfriend does in fact think she's fat, even if she is consciously aware that her weight is healthy and she is fit etc. This is deeply ingrained into all women's psyches very early on.

Look at any woman's magazine. One of three things is there (sometimes all of them) housekeeping, pleasing your man, and losing weight.

if, since your very first memory, there were influences around you telling you that being thin and pretty was essential and handing you unrealistic images of what that is (hello barbie) all the way up to adulthood and beyond, it would sink in deep enough that even knowing it isn't true couldn't pry it out. It doesn't matter how much you want to ignore them, eventually it sticks.

So tell your girlfriend she's pretty, and for the love of god do not tell her she needs to lose a few pounds. If you feel she is heavy enough that it is impacting her health (and you can be fairly big and still be healthy) say you want to start working out but you want company and that you can't do it alone.

Really, don't ever tell any woman she is fat or needs to lose weight. It's just a bad idea.

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I think the issue here is that most people want to play their Nightblades as the guys who wade into combat and melt faces without ever having an issue. People also seem to think that an assassin is someone who can kill whoever they want...

We don't need people like you who come in here with no idea what your talking about. If you were to have fought any competent opponent in pvp you would quickly realize how false your ranting is. Yes, getting the jump on someone and backstabbing them does put the NB in a distinct advantage. Except, ANYONE can do this if they choose to build for backstab. Not only that, but you fail to realize even backstab can be 100% countered by a player who knows what they are doing.