Fix Stealth please!

HairyFairy · July 2014

As a nightblade, stealth is our main ability. our other main critical abilities run off of it, that's where we get our best crit. Now most NB's are using a bow in pvp, and have no problem when they mark the target, and get a nice hit out of stealth, but as a dual-wield NB, Stealth has issues.

Too often when I get into combat, and hit stealth, do i get hit anyhow. Too often when i try to stealth, and get away from combat....well wait, that's impossible to do.

we nightblades are supposed to play in the shadows, but we can't. I feel like our stealth ability, when used, and being that it is only a 2.4 second ability, it should completely get us out of combat when we go into stealth. this way, we can do the dps in a fight, like all other classes are able to do. Everyone might think that this will make us OP...but i doubt it. That's how a nightblade should be! You should see him, he goes stealth and you should be scared. haha

Nightblades are under-powered by a lot right now. And we need to see some kind of improvement, because doing it little by little for us isn't working. Everyone is either re-rolling, or because they've spent so much time on a failed class, they quit the game.

That's my idea, those are my opinions. anyone else is free to theirs, thanks.
`HairyFairy`

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

You may want to correct the title of your thread, because it isn't about stealth, it's about the Dark Cloak/Shadowy Cloak ability.

And yes, AoE damage will remove any invisibility affects from a character. Nightblades aren't going to get special treatment for that. You're not meant to be able to go invisible within a wall of fire, because (presumably) someone will see the outline of your burning, flailing body.

Samadhi · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You may want to correct the title of your thread, because it isn't about stealth, it's about the Dark Cloak/Shadowy Cloak ability.

And yes, AoE damage will remove any invisibility affects from a character. Nightblades aren't going to get special treatment for that. You're not meant to be able to go invisible within a wall of fire, because (presumably) someone will see the outline of your burning, flailing body.

Does the wall of fire pull Vampires out of invisibility when they use their ultimate?

Neferath · July 2014

No but first of all a vamp can't go "invisible" like a NB, you'll still see him or better the effects of the used skill (mist/bat) and second while he uses them, he also doesn't get out of combat automatically and will still take dmg (reduced dmg of course).

Tbh. i dont really see any reason why someone would reroll if playing a NB anymore except of disliking the class concept as a whole. There have been reasons in the past because of bugged skills yes but nowadays ... Actually one of my twinks is a NB and honestly, this class rocks like hell both in pve and pvp.

The only concern i have with NB's is while pve'ing, you'll be punished for playing a really stealthy NB who prefer's to avoid battles rather than attacking every single npc in his way since while doing so, you'll loose alot of XP and therefore will fall behind in the XP / Quest / Region curve.

kitsinni · July 2014

As a NB in PvP you can already go in sneak kill someone pop cloak and sneak and walk off without anyone seeing you as long as they are not on you too fast. I do it all the time. I will go up to the last row of siege and kill one really fast and dark cloak, sneak and the others won't see me.

If you are saying we should just be out of combat anytime we crouch that is going to be OP.

What they do need to fix is when you go in to cloak but the enemy still sees a mist around you wherever you go and can just follow you.

Samadhi · July 2014

Neferath wrote: »

No but first of all a vamp can't go "invisible" like a NB, you'll still see him or better the effects of the used skill (mist/bat) and second while he uses them, he also doesn't get out of combat automatically and will still take dmg (reduced dmg of course).
...

You forgot the part that we vampires can also go invisible and still use skills to attack people while we are invisible.
Nightblade's invisible breaks on the first attack.

kitsinni wrote: »

...
What they do need to fix is when you go in to cloak but the enemy still sees a mist around you wherever you go and can just follow you.

Is this referring to PvP?
I've never seen that effect personally.
If I see another Nightblade go invisible, I pop a Detection potion and can see them as clearly as I can see myself when I cloak. Then I follow them and kill them.

kitsinni · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

...
What they do need to fix is when you go in to cloak but the enemy still sees a mist around you wherever you go and can just follow you.

Is this referring to PvP?
I've never seen that effect personally.
If I see another Nightblade go invisible, I pop a Detection potion and can see them as clearly as I can see myself when I cloak. Then I follow them and kill them.

Yes in PvP I see it all the time. They pop either shadowy disguise or dark cloak, im not sure which one because they are on the other alliance. Then I can see a light smoke running around. You just follow it after a couple seconds they pop out of stealth and you attack them, usually the do it again and you just follow them again. I can only assume others see the same with me.

Maybe this is what shadowy disguise looks like when you have a dot on you?

Samadhi · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

...
What they do need to fix is when you go in to cloak but the enemy still sees a mist around you wherever you go and can just follow you.

Is this referring to PvP?
I've never seen that effect personally.
If I see another Nightblade go invisible, I pop a Detection potion and can see them as clearly as I can see myself when I cloak. Then I follow them and kill them.

Yes in PvP I see it all the time. They pop either shadowy disguise or dark cloak, im not sure which one because they are on the other alliance. Then I can see a light smoke running around. You just follow it after a couple seconds they pop out of stealth and you attack them, usually the do it again and you just follow them again. I can only assume others see the same with me.

Maybe this is what shadowy disguise looks like when you have a dot on you?

Shadowy Disguise completely breaks on the first tick when there is a DoT on me.
But I also have that issue with Dark Cloak, even though it is supposed to remove the DoTs.

I've never had anyone follow me while I was in Shadowy Disguise (unless they had magelight), but I have had them follow me with Dark Cloak on. Perhaps it's the visual effect of the Dark Cloak morph in that case.
Thank you for the insight either way, I'll have to keep a watch for it. May save me some potions.

HairyFairy · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

Neferath wrote: »

No but first of all a vamp can't go "invisible" like a NB, you'll still see him or better the effects of the used skill (mist/bat) and second while he uses them, he also doesn't get out of combat automatically and will still take dmg (reduced dmg of course).
...

You forgot the part that we vampires can also go invisible and still use skills to attack people while we are invisible.
Nightblade's invisible breaks on the first attack.

kitsinni wrote: »

...
What they do need to fix is when you go in to cloak but the enemy still sees a mist around you wherever you go and can just follow you.

Is this referring to PvP?
I've never seen that effect personally.
If I see another Nightblade go invisible, I pop a Detection potion and can see them as clearly as I can see myself when I cloak. Then I follow them and kill them.

Exactly. there are potions, and mage lights, and everythign else against a nightblades abilities...What can we use against you? Yes these things are meant as a whole, due to everyone being able to go into sneak, but nightblades main ability is cloak, and we can't utilize it correctly because of everything else put into place to detect

HairyFairy · July 2014

All i am saying is we should be able to pop our cloak, and we should be able to not be hit in it. It only last 2.4 second, so it wouldn't be OP. And yes if we spam it, we can get completely away from combat, if we can't be seen or hit in it. But that also drains our magicka, and thus, we will be ineffective, not OP, because we will at least get out of pvp, but have to wait to gain magicka back. I don't see how there is an arguement against this.

LunaRae · July 2014

Shadowy disguise / Dark clock should be pure invis, with 0 ways of reveal. Overpowered? I have no idea. But as it stands right now 80% of the time in PvP if I try to use SD (my morphed version) it just does nothing. It will either insta-break (even without a dot on me sometimes) or people will have magelight/potions and still hit me either way. So... what's the point in this ability if it is countered by many overly used options in the game, such as magelight which everyone and their cloth/light staff wielding guar use? Or the easy second alternative of potions, which can provide several additional effects. Really, I don't need the 100% crit, DC was broken (still is???) when I morphed it ages ago, haven't really looked at it since. I strictly want the ability to do a complete, visual, disengage. I'm fine taking AoE damage, tick damage, but I'm not fine with people seeing me because of every popular buff giving them complete true sight.

Zeni apparently don't care how garbage the ability is, its been like this since beta (among many other "since betas").

DenverRalphy · July 2014

HairyFairy wrote: »

All i am saying is we should be able to pop our cloak, and we should be able to not be hit in it.

No. No, no, no. All cloak should do is make sure you aren't seen. If somebody can guess where you are and drops some damage on you... too bad, so sad. Cloaking should only be a mechanic to move unseen. It should not be a mechanic that enables you to avoid or be immune to damage.

Neferath · July 2014

HairyFairy wrote: »

All i am saying is we should be able to pop our cloak, and we should be able to not be hit in it. It only last 2.4 second, so it wouldn't be OP. And yes if we spam it, we can get completely away from combat, if we can't be seen or hit in it. But that also drains our magicka, and thus, we will be ineffective, not OP, because we will at least get out of pvp, but have to wait to gain magicka back. I don't see how there is an arguement against this.

You remember all the Bolt Escape discussions? Well guess that should be your argument against this.

TheBull · July 2014

They said getting close and breaking stealth is a bug. The said our dots breaking our stealth is a bug.

I just wish they would fix it... The get to close bug came with 1.2...

Cody · August 2014

people don't seem to have a problem with a sorcerer using bolt escape to get out of combat constantly, yet they seem to have one with NBs going invisible to get out of combat.

ANYWAY
I don't think its due to the NB that stealth often does not work very well for us, I think its simply the stealth mechanics themselves. every class has the EXACT same "sneak skill" currently. every class can hide on a road in broad daylight, and NOT be seen. that is a problem. only an expert/master of stealth should be able to do things like that, the NB is supposed to be the master of stealth,NOT "all classes are masters of stealth". "but NBs have a cloak spell" and everyone has invisibility potions, which are not bugged, and lasts longer. if the stealth mechanics themselves are improved, to fit the STEALTH CLASS, and not set, to where everyone has the same stealth ability, it MAY be better.

xaraan · August 2014

Yeah, tried a little PvP again the other day and found out the hard way that everyone could still hit and target me when i wasted magicka and hit my invis a few times in a row trying to get out a situation I put myself in b/c I thought I could use that power. Hopefully gets fixed soon.

Cathexis · August 2014

Hiding shouldn't be rewarded.

Cody · August 2014

Cathexis wrote: »

Hiding shouldn't be rewarded.

then its time to remove BE

Ser Lobo · August 2014

I'm a nightblade. Let's start there.

The ability to initiate combat on your terms is a powerful ability. In paper and pen, we call it initiative, and it's one of the most important stats you can possibly have.

The ability to break away from combat, on the other hand, is an equally powerful ability. I would argue even more powerful. It allows you to break off combat and essentially never lose.

Zenimax seems to have taken steps to stop nightblades, or any class, from having a flawless escape. Whether it's vampires and their telltale signs of movement, or nightblades and our short cloak timer, or the penalties of bolt escape. The concept, or trend, is that no player should be able to get away without trying really hard.

This is contrary to many MMO's and their classic rogue archetypes. In order to give some form of stealth elements, many MMO's break down and decide to make it 'easy', by letting rogues pop smoke and disappear. This, of course, usually makes them incredibly overpowered and hated by much of the rest of the community.

When you take cloak into a new direction, more as an offensive tool, where we can reapply large bonuses and do a significant amount of damage (and up our defenses), it works wonders. Only needs a split second.

Due to the known bugs, it does take a certain amount of skill. You have to know your dots, your cooldowns, and where you sit as far as enemy dots on you. You have to avoid damage (duh) and keep on top of things. But it can be done, very well. And when the bugs eventually are fixed, it will be even more powerful

But I feel that if your expecting Cloak to be changed into a 'get out of jail free' card, you are going to be sorely mistaken. Just from looking at ZOS' approach to these things, I think it's going to go counter to common MMO trends, and many players will still be unsatisfied that their nightblade doesn't let them be as powerful as a hunter in WoW or a Trickster Rogue in Neverwinter Online, completely in control of the flow of battle.

Gilvoth · August 2014

yes, plz do fix the stealth it is still not working properly. when i do anything that causes damage over time it will KEEP me out of stealth and that is simply not what it should do. im sory but stealth is supose to be stealth. invisibility is supose to be invisibility.
plz fix it.
also, invisibility should be constant untill i attack some one or interact with an object or engage in conversation with an npc. plz adjust this to make it posible, or make it a skill we can attain as assassin type nighblade skill.
perminant invisibility or atleast 30 minutes every time i cast it.

Ser Lobo · August 2014

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

yes, plz do fix the stealth it is still not working properly. when i do anything that causes damage over time it will KEEP me out of stealth and that is simply not what it should do. im sory but stealth is supose to be stealth. invisibility is supose to be invisibility.
plz fix it.
also, invisibility should be constant untill i attack some one or interact with an object or engage in conversation with an npc. plz adjust this to make it posible, or make it a skill we can attain as assassin type nighblade skill.
perminant invisibility or atleast 30 minutes every time i cast it.

30 minutes? Wow.

We have permanent invis. Just crouch. Want to go poof in combat? Use a potion or be a nightblade, but it isn't permanent.

If you can't tell, I tend to disagree with every suggestion you made. Just wanted to clarify for discussions sake.

Cody · August 2014

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

yes, plz do fix the stealth it is still not working properly. when i do anything that causes damage over time it will KEEP me out of stealth and that is simply not what it should do. im sory but stealth is supose to be stealth. invisibility is supose to be invisibility.
plz fix it.
also, invisibility should be constant untill i attack some one or interact with an object or engage in conversation with an npc. plz adjust this to make it posible, or make it a skill we can attain as assassin type nighblade skill.
perminant invisibility or atleast 30 minutes every time i cast it.

NOT 30 minutes.:/ way to OP. the stealth mechanics of the game itself need to be adjusted, not NB stealth.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You may want to correct the title of your thread, because it isn't about stealth, it's about the Dark Cloak/Shadowy Cloak ability.

And yes, AoE damage will remove any invisibility affects from a character. Nightblades aren't going to get special treatment for that. You're not meant to be able to go invisible within a wall of fire, because (presumably) someone will see the outline of your burning, flailing body.

the problem with this argument is that much of NB functionality and dps depends on cloak. So the fact that almost every attack of any sort in cyrodiil knocks us out of it neuters the class. We do, in fact, need special treatment on this because it is not the same as stealth, which costs no resources. It costs considerable resources and is nullified by almost everything.

Most NB builds are severely hindered when going into cloak during combat is impossible (well not impossible, but so many things pop you out of it that half the time you are not even sure what it was this time.)

bgoldbeck21_ESO · August 2014

NB have passives that say "Do extra 10% dmg from invis". But, seriously? good luck with that ever working. I've spent upwards of 1,800 mana trying to go invis during combat and using surprise attack for the stun (Another invis bonus) + the passive dmg bonus. NB's are not slippery enough and our passives should reflect our playstyle. But, they don't and this is why this class is so broken

Ser Lobo · August 2014

NB passives give us a significant advantage at combat start, and apply both the coming out of stealth and coming out of cloak.

When used properly, you can use cloak to give you a significant hit even during combat. I've started dual wielding, and with a quick cloak+vieled strike combo, the damage output is up there, at least in comparison to other stamina builds.

The real thing I feel is that Nightblades, without using cloak, are slowly being brought on par with everyone else. When they fix cloak ... will we be overpowered? For some players, no. Maybe most. But for many players that I know and play with, if you make us much stronger, we'll be unstoppable.

This isn't arrogance. This is observation. The flow of power still rests solidly in the hands of light armor and staves, but it's shifting. Like a frog boiling in water, many don't even notice. But more than once I've ended a veteran dungeon to hear 'I thought nightblades sucked', laughing.

Balance must always begin at the elite level of gamers who do the most with something. If you start with those who don't manage their resources, can't keep their timers in their mind, don't exploit enemy weaknesses and terrain advantages and perfect gear setups? You'll end up making it so that those who can do all that break the game, as we saw with dragonknights and sorcerers already since launch.

bgoldbeck21_ESO · August 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

NB passives give us a significant advantage at combat start, and apply both the coming out of stealth and coming out of cloak.

When used properly, you can use cloak to give you a significant hit even during combat. I've started dual wielding, and with a quick cloak+vieled strike combo, the damage output is up there, at least in comparison to other stamina builds.

The real thing I feel is that Nightblades, without using cloak, are slowly being brought on par with everyone else. When they fix cloak ... will we be overpowered? For some players, no. Maybe most. But for many players that I know and play with, if you make us much stronger, we'll be unstoppable.

This isn't arrogance. This is observation. The flow of power still rests solidly in the hands of light armor and staves, but it's shifting. Like a frog boiling in water, many don't even notice. But more than once I've ended a veteran dungeon to hear 'I thought nightblades sucked', laughing.

Balance must always begin at the elite level of gamers who do the most with something. If you start with those who don't manage their resources, can't keep their timers in their mind, don't exploit enemy weaknesses and terrain advantages and perfect gear setups? You'll end up making it so that those who can do all that break the game, as we saw with dragonknights and sorcerers already since launch.

Now try pvp, good luck and god speed.

zScars · August 2014

when i see a nb i usually auto attack em until the burning dot kicks in (fire staff) then theyre useless.

thanks zeni

bgoldbeck21_ESO · August 2014

zScars wrote: »

when i see a nb i usually auto attack em until the burning dot kicks in (fire staff) then theyre useless.

thanks zeni

NB class mechanics are the easiest to counter of all the classes. Prove me wrong! Seriously. I watched some NB video on youtube where they explained when faced with the decision of attacking 'xy' class or 'NB'. Always kill the NB first, because "They always die easier".

So, best take advice from other NB's. We're the easy targets, go for us first. #NBCannonFodder

Ser Lobo · August 2014

So, I just went to youtube and did a search for 'Nightblades killing in PvP'. The returns are pretty interesting.

Of course, many of the fights are nightblades with the initiative out of stealth (duh, see above comments about our passives), or focusing on particularly nasty enemies in the middle of packs (strong single-target focus). And there is a good share that are stave/cloth/vampire destruction sprees, even dated after the vampire nerf.

My own minor experiences in Cyrodiil (four year old machine with 2gb ram ... as you can guess, it gets real buggy for me) has good victories, but none one-on-one. I was playing pure archer at the time, and spent all my time crouched on the sidelines focusing on runners.

It was my personal approach never to get hit, if I could help it, and I quickly learned to cloak+crouch and slide behind terrain to get hidden again. I figured, having so little defenses, trying to go toe-to-toe with people might not be to my advantage.

We've been heavily buffed since then, though. I'll have to go back out soon (with those uber-fuzzy minimum-spec graphic settings) and see how I do at the upper VR level.

Ser Lobo · August 2014

bgoldbeck21_ESO wrote: »

zScars wrote: »

when i see a nb i usually auto attack em until the burning dot kicks in (fire staff) then theyre useless.

thanks zeni

NB class mechanics are the easiest to counter of all the classes. Prove me wrong! Seriously. I watched some NB video on youtube where they explained when faced with the decision of attacking 'xy' class or 'NB'. Always kill the NB first, because "They always die easier".

So, best take advice from other NB's. We're the easy targets, go for us first. #NBCannonFodder

I will admit this much: compared to some other classes, we don't have a 'tank all' skill that gives us the advantage others face.

I'd happily trade one of the less useful skills for something which gives us good health regen and decent resistances.

Not every Nightblade is a hunter or rogue. Some actually need to stand toe-to-toe.

Gilvoth · August 2014

we have not been heavily buffed. we have had zero buff's in survivability and zero buffs in anything to increase our damage output.
dragonights and sorcerers and now even templars have a skill i see that when they are low health they can cast it pushing out thier chests and it instantly fills thier health bar to max in less then a second.
we nightblades have No such skill, we cant compete toe to toe with anyone unless thier 10 or more levels below us.

we need that same survivability and damage output the other classes have along with a skill like they do that allows us to immediatly fill our health bar in combat just like they do. plain and simple truth.