Dark Cloak vs. Shadowy CLoak?

Nihili · July 2014

Just in need of some advice from the NBs, I view Dark Cloak as an awesome opening attack with the 70% crit - at one time I THINK this was 100% crit, and I have yet to understand why they would nerf it :'( but whatever - and on the other side I view Shadowy cloak as an awesome escape, with it's removal of negative status effects...
So which one should I try running with? I'm attempting a crit build so Dark Cloak sounds lovely, but the issue with my crit build is that it's a bit of a glass cannon, and often times if I don't kill quickly I'm going to get killed... So the potential escape route that Shadowy offers sounds good. Halp?

Samadhi · July 2014

Shadowy Disguise is the morph that provides critical rating.
It is currently bugged so that at level 4 it only provides 100% weapon critical but erroneously does not provide the 100% spell critical it is supposed to. I have put in a bug report about this, because the skill provides spell critical at levels 1-3.

Dark Cloak is the morph that removes DoTs. It is currently bugged such that it routinely does not actually remove DoTs for me at level 4.

Pick your poison, really.

I prefer Shadowy Disguise, being able to reliably crit matters to me. The skill can still be used to escape by casting it multiple times in a row.
Theoretically the skill will also be better for survivability when the bug with the missing spell critical is fixed. 100% spell critical would dynamically increase the level of healing received from Strife, by turning all the HoT ticks into crits. The current bug limits that though.

This turned into a larger block of text than I had intended, my bad.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · July 2014

IMO shadow cloak is always best. There are so many other ways to counter bad effects that you gain so much more from the crit chance.

Remember that the crit is added to your current crit rating so any decent NB will get 100%+ crit rating with it. It makes your sniper shots utterly deadly with 1100-1400 hits common at 35m range and in melee you spam the cloak to prevent enemy damage on you and then you crit with a veiled strike back.

Tigeracer · July 2014

Hey, I'm a VR10 night blade and I'm pretty much unstoppable. I used to use shadowy disguise until I got sick of eating storm taro aches storm bolt.

Both morphs are bugged, but for practicality you need to go with dark cloak. It will mean the difference between being killed stupidly or living to defeat the toughest foes.

Tannakaobi · July 2014

I guess you mean Shadowy Disguise rather than cloak...

Honestly, I don't think that either/any work as an escape. The duration is too short, and mobs often follow you anyway, even if they don't attack. It can be used as such in PVP, but is not easy.

Shadowy Disguise all the way for me, it's my bread and butter for the class.

Nihili · July 2014

Apologies, I got the two swapped around so you're right, Dark Cloak - negative effects, Shadowy - crit +

Liquid_Time · July 2014

I use it for the crit. I use evasive mist for escape.

Nihili · July 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

I guess you mean Shadowy Disguise rather than cloak...

Honestly, I don't think that either/any work as an escape. The duration is too short, and mobs often follow you anyway, even if they don't attack. It can be used as such in PVP, but is not easy.

Shadowy Disguise all the way for me, it's my bread and butter for the class.

I'm not too fazed by PvE mobs for this purpose, so PvP wise I feel it's quite decent.
The +crit sounds more appealing now at least, just that a lot of the VR content producers seem to be running with one or the other to the point where it's 50% one or the other, so I could never get a feel for which one was better from that.

Nihili · July 2014

Liquid_Time wrote: »

I use it for the crit. I use evasive mist for escape.

Elusive mist is slow though isn't it? I also planned on using it for escape, but to me it's the equivalent of sprinting. 30%+ movement speed is really not that much. I don't find myself escaping at all.

Without bashing the other classes too much, I'm quite jealous of the sorcerer's "Bolt" thingy where they dash away. I thought elusive mist was going to be the equivalent of THAT, because it's very purpose is 'eluding'. Oh how wrong I was...

Liquid_Time · July 2014

Nihili wrote: »

Liquid_Time wrote: »

I use it for the crit. I use evasive mist for escape.

Elusive mist is slow though isn't it? I also planned on using it for escape, but to me it's the equivalent of sprinting. 30%+ movement speed is really not that much. I don't find myself escaping at all.

Without bashing the other classes too much, I'm quite jealous of the sorcerer's "Bolt" thingy where they dash away. I thought elusive mist was going to be the equivalent of THAT, because it's very purpose is 'eluding'. Oh how wrong I was...

True, but I have an odd build. I rip Retreating Maneuver before elusive mist, so I get the 30% + 30% more speed to escape. If I do not have the resources to pull this combo I will try just elusive mist, but will be ready to pop a tri pot just in case and then be able to pull said combo.

Forgive my prior typo.. It is elusive mist not evasive haha.

frwinters_ESO · July 2014

I PvP more then PVE so I go with Dark Cloak. Dots are a plenty and they will kill you in Cyrodil, so being able to cleanse yourself if your not by a healer is a life saver.

Jaxom · July 2014

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

I PvP more then PVE so I go with Dark Cloak. Dots are a plenty and they will kill you in Cyrodil, so being able to cleanse yourself if your not by a healer is a life saver.

Agreed. Being able to purge Fire Balista's with Dark Cloak is invaluable.

pitdemon_ESO · July 2014

Jaxom wrote: »

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

I PvP more then PVE so I go with Dark Cloak. Dots are a plenty and they will kill you in Cyrodil, so being able to cleanse yourself if your not by a healer is a life saver.

Agreed. Being able to purge Fire Balista's with Dark Cloak is invaluable.

I'll just second this.

Also not having to purge/heal when trying to make a getaway is pretty priceless as well.

The only thing it doesn't purge that I wish it did is Mark/Piercing Mark

Vuron · July 2014

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

I PvP more then PVE so I go with Dark Cloak. Dots are a plenty and they will kill you in Cyrodil, so being able to cleanse yourself if your not by a healer is a life saver.

This is the correct answer. If you are grouping and/or care more about sustainability and survival then Dark Cloak is the answer.

If you are all about damage and don't mind a death or 2, then Shadowy Disguise is probably better. But, expect to take some heat if you're dying in a group and you have Disguise over cloak.

Zubba · July 2014

I use shadow disguise. I don't have that much problems evading when needed.

Aeratus · July 2014

Dark cloak is better, IMO. In PVP, there are so many DOT effects that can harm you. Disguise is not useful unless you're mainly a ganker.

kitsinni · July 2014

I think for PvE disguise for PvP Cloak. In PvP getting rid of negative effects is really nice and everyone is running with so much impenetrable that you still barely crit.

Aeratus · July 2014

Cloak is not an essential skill in PVE. In PVE group play, cloak is not useful at all as a dps skill. In PVE solo, stealth attacks are not needed to get through the zones. Furthermore, in 1.3, you'll have a lot of +crit armor sets, rendering the benefits of disguise as marginal.

On the other hand, the cloak skill is an important aspect of NB in PVP. So, I would say that the PVP considerations dictate.

Samadhi · July 2014

Well, ZOS put in a fix for Shadowy Disguise on the PTS today

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

...
Nightblade
Shadow
Shadowy Disguise (Shadow Cloak morph): Fixed an issue where Rank4 of this ability was not increasing the critical strike rating with spells.

...

So I would say go with Shadowy Disguise for sure. Especially for PvP.
Better damage (100% critical rating added on top of our existing crit; this means we can guarantee crits against people with 7-8 pieces of Impenetrable trait gear) as well as better survivability (Strife's HoT will always crit heal while the Nightblade is invisible, drastically increasing survivability.)

Looking forward to this fix coming to live.

kitsinni · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

Well, ZOS put in a fix for Shadowy Disguise on the PTS today

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

...
Nightblade
Shadow
Shadowy Disguise (Shadow Cloak morph): Fixed an issue where Rank4 of this ability was not increasing the critical strike rating with spells.

...

So I would say go with Shadowy Disguise for sure. Especially for PvP.
Better damage (100% critical rating added on top of our existing crit; this means we can guarantee crits against people with 7-8 pieces of Impenetrable trait gear) as well as better survivability (Strife's HoT will always crit heal while the Nightblade is invisible, drastically increasing survivability.)

Looking forward to this fix coming to live.

I thought Shadowy Disguise was 70% crit? At least when I respecced and was picking morphs that is what the tooltip said. Assuming it is 70% and you have 50% crit normally you still wouldn't be garunteed a crit against someone stacking impenetrable because they would take away 70% chance. You should still have a 50% chance to crit them though.

As far as strife that would only be critting for those couple seconds after you hit shadowy disguise not every time you sneak.

Samadhi · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Well, ZOS put in a fix for Shadowy Disguise on the PTS today

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

...
Nightblade
Shadow
Shadowy Disguise (Shadow Cloak morph): Fixed an issue where Rank4 of this ability was not increasing the critical strike rating with spells.

...

So I would say go with Shadowy Disguise for sure. Especially for PvP.
Better damage (100% critical rating added on top of our existing crit; this means we can guarantee crits against people with 7-8 pieces of Impenetrable trait gear) as well as better survivability (Strife's HoT will always crit heal while the Nightblade is invisible, drastically increasing survivability.)

Looking forward to this fix coming to live.

I thought Shadowy Disguise was 70% crit? At least when I respecced and was picking morphs that is what the tooltip said. Assuming it is 70% and you have 50% crit normally you still wouldn't be garunteed a crit against someone stacking impenetrable because they would take away 70% chance. You should still have a 50% chance to crit them though.

As far as strife that would only be critting for those couple seconds after you hit shadowy disguise not every time you sneak.

It starts at 70% and scales up to 100% at level 4.

I often cast Shadowy Disguise 2-3 times in a row while moving around the battlefield, so that means enhanced healing the whole time I am invisible (the buff lasts until invisibility wears off).

kitsinni · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Well, ZOS put in a fix for Shadowy Disguise on the PTS today

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

...
Nightblade
Shadow
Shadowy Disguise (Shadow Cloak morph): Fixed an issue where Rank4 of this ability was not increasing the critical strike rating with spells.

...

So I would say go with Shadowy Disguise for sure. Especially for PvP.
Better damage (100% critical rating added on top of our existing crit; this means we can guarantee crits against people with 7-8 pieces of Impenetrable trait gear) as well as better survivability (Strife's HoT will always crit heal while the Nightblade is invisible, drastically increasing survivability.)

Looking forward to this fix coming to live.

I thought Shadowy Disguise was 70% crit? At least when I respecced and was picking morphs that is what the tooltip said. Assuming it is 70% and you have 50% crit normally you still wouldn't be garunteed a crit against someone stacking impenetrable because they would take away 70% chance. You should still have a 50% chance to crit them though.

As far as strife that would only be critting for those couple seconds after you hit shadowy disguise not every time you sneak.

It starts at 70% and scales up to 100% at level 4.

I often cast Shadowy Disguise 2-3 times in a row while moving around the battlefield, so that means enhanced healing the whole time I am invisible (the buff lasts until invisibility wears off).

So if you cast Shadowy Disguise and go in to sneak the crit buff lasts until you come out of sneak?

Samadhi · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Well, ZOS put in a fix for Shadowy Disguise on the PTS today

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

...
Nightblade
Shadow
Shadowy Disguise (Shadow Cloak morph): Fixed an issue where Rank4 of this ability was not increasing the critical strike rating with spells.

...

So I would say go with Shadowy Disguise for sure. Especially for PvP.
Better damage (100% critical rating added on top of our existing crit; this means we can guarantee crits against people with 7-8 pieces of Impenetrable trait gear) as well as better survivability (Strife's HoT will always crit heal while the Nightblade is invisible, drastically increasing survivability.)

Looking forward to this fix coming to live.

I thought Shadowy Disguise was 70% crit? At least when I respecced and was picking morphs that is what the tooltip said. Assuming it is 70% and you have 50% crit normally you still wouldn't be garunteed a crit against someone stacking impenetrable because they would take away 70% chance. You should still have a 50% chance to crit them though.

As far as strife that would only be critting for those couple seconds after you hit shadowy disguise not every time you sneak.

It starts at 70% and scales up to 100% at level 4.

I often cast Shadowy Disguise 2-3 times in a row while moving around the battlefield, so that means enhanced healing the whole time I am invisible (the buff lasts until invisibility wears off).

So if you cast Shadowy Disguise and go in to sneak the crit buff lasts until you come out of sneak?

It lasts until you come out of Shadowy Disguise. The buff can be seen by opening the character sheet while Shadowy Disguise is active.
Shadowy Disguise can be cast multiple times in a row to remain invisible during combat, when sneak is no longer available.

ThisOnePosts · July 2014

You can get great opening damage regardless with surprise attack and while that boost in crit is nice with Shadowy.. after having used both extensively I really liked removing DoTs with Dark Cloak. In Cyrodiil, you will notice the difference big time with all of the spammage when taking a keep and the oil pots are pouring in your path. In all honesty, they made it a tough decision.. both have their pros and cons. If you can fit another way to remove DoTs on your secondary bar or main bar even, then Shadowy for sure. Dark Cloak is just as good, only from a defensive perspective instead of offensive. I do plenty of damage with or without Shadowy, so I may change back to Dark Cloak... I'll decide when everything is working as intended again as I really like both morphs.

aipex8_ESO · July 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

Cloak is not an essential skill in PVE. In PVE group play, cloak is not useful at all as a dps skill. In PVE solo, stealth attacks are not needed to get through the zones. Furthermore, in 1.3, you'll have a lot of +crit armor sets, rendering the benefits of disguise as marginal.

On the other hand, the cloak skill is an important aspect of NB in PVP. So, I would say that the PVP considerations dictate.

I agree with this. I focus on PvE and don't even have cloak on my bar. I have used it enough to morph it and chose Shadowy, but as a stamina based NB, it's magicka cost is just too high to use it regularly. Sure, I'll pull it out for certain situations, but I find opening with an Ambush from stealth and following up with an +30% damage Incapacitating Strike (if the ulti is up) or even a heavy attack does more damage than a cloaked sneak attack.

Is weapon crit going to be soft capped when 1.3 goes live? I'm going to have some crazy crit% if not!

Samadhi · July 2014

ViciousWayz wrote: »

You can get great opening damage regardless with surprise attack and while that boost in crit is nice with Shadowy.. ...

There is no need to use Shadowy Disguise before a sneak attack, sneak attacks auto-crit.

Shadowy Disguise is valuable after combat has already begun.
With so many people running 70% crit reduction in PvP, there is no way I would be critting on them without Shadowy Disguise.
It's really nice to go invisible to stun/off-balance someone with Veiled Strike, while also guaranteeing increased damage output.

reften · July 2014

Dark cloak does fine at removing DoTs. It;'s the best option for end game pvp.

Samadhi · July 2014

oren74 wrote: »

Dark cloak does fine at removing DoTs. It;'s the best option for end game pvp.

Wish it worked for me.
Have DoT on me --> Use Dark Cloak --> DoT doesn't get removed --> Get pulled out of invisible by the next damage tick.

I'm told it works for Oil, but I don't spend my time zerging keeps. I prefer to spend my PvP time actually fighting players, and unfortunately Dark Cloak has proven consistently useless to me.
Shame I spent so much time leveling it to level 4 only to have it be broken and have to respec it out of my build.

Jaxom · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

You can get great opening damage regardless with surprise attack and while that boost in crit is nice with Shadowy.. ...

There is no need to use Shadowy Disguise before a sneak attack, sneak attacks auto-crit.

It has it's uses in PvE, but in PvP, you are right. I'll sometimes hit my Dark Cloak to invis by a boss who is up near a wall to get behind them in order to get the sneal crit off. It's really the only application when using it while in sneak makes sense.

Tremulous · July 2014

For pve I honestly dropped it there are far better abilities for less cost. Great for pvp though. Well you can spam it to stealth through a crap ton of mobs so it does have it's uses.

Jaxom · July 2014

Tremulous wrote: »

For pve I honestly dropped it there are far better abilities for less cost. Great for pvp though. Well you can spam it to stealth through a crap ton of mobs so it does have it's uses.

Yup. I chain casted it through all of the Craglorn caves to grab the skyshards. Didnt have to kill a single thing.