Zenimax, listen up: Solution to your "balance" issues.
GreyBrow
✭✭✭✭
Okay Zenimax, surely you've read through the thousands of topics begging you to nerf this, buff that, and fix all the things. Essentially, these "discussions" amount to millennials crying about something they perceive as unfair, when in all likelihood the actual problem is that they have become accustomed to the new industry trend of hand holding and the mentality that everyone gets a trophy.
You will never hear a gamer from the 80's or 90's complaining that some player is "too good", or that some quest is "broken" or "too complicated" because games used to be HARD. There was a time when when games required you to think, when you needed to solve problems, find solutions, and complete complicated tasks. If you were able to do this, the game rewarded your intelligence and ingenuity with a prize, or a level completion. If you weren't competent enough to solve a puzzle, or not skilled enough to complete a level, the game didn't feel bad in letting you know it. If you couldn't get to the end of donkey kong and rescue the princess, that was that. You just couldn't do it. Sure, your ego might be a little bruised, but at the end of the day we all became better gamers (and consequently, human beings) because of it. As games evolved, so did this system. In older MMO's, if you were naive enough to fall for a scam, you lost your gold or items and that was that. You couldn't run crying to mommy to get your stuff back... Sure it sucked, but you picked yourself up, brushed yourself off, and learned to be a little smarter. You learned a valuable LIFE lesson, not just how to play a videogame.
I realize that if you implemented such a system, where not everyone was able to complete the game, or have the best gear, or feel awesome about being amazing in PvP, you'd loose your player base. However, if you let the industry standard of nanny-gaming, hand holding, trophy giving, and boo-boo kissing continue, you're going to lose a player base that is much, much more valuable than these bickering, complaining kids we have today.
TL;DR:
To this end, I propose a final solution to end the bickering about class balancing: A solution that seems almost TOO obvious, and something you should have done from day one. The main problem is that some classes (DK, Templar) have very good class specific skills, while others (NB, Sorc), do not. With a maxed out Sorc, the highest DPS you can achieve using ONLY class abilities is around 500. Therefore, DPS Sorc must necessarily use a destruction staff as its primary means of attack if he wants to have a DPS that is competitive with a DK or NB. This represents an in inherent imbalance, because while a Sorc must rely on a destruction staff as his primary means of damage, a DK has access to all the same destruction abilities, in addition to his class abilities. If you apply the same thought experiment to tanks and healers, you begin to see a very, very large problem that cannot be addressed by simply altering the numbers of one or two abilities.
Furthermore, changing any ability with regard to weapon skills is an exercise in futility, as it does nothing to alter the balance of the game, according to the above stated principles.
I suggest you conduct a very simple experiment. This experiment is based upon two ideas: first, your policy of "any role, any class", and second, the fact that each class has equal access to any weapon tree, as well as equal access to all of the various items and sets within the game.
1. Because each class has access to every weapon skill tree and every item, the only thing differentiating classes are their 3 class skill trees and the accompanying passives.
2. Control for as many variables as you can: weapons and armor. Ideally, you would have a "naked" character, using no weapons and no armor.
3. The variables you modify will be the actual numbers for each individual skill, and if need be, you would modify the effects of the skill.
During this experiment, you will have 4 separate people. You will instruct each to make a character of a different class from the others, but of the same race, to control for racial passives. You will then instruct each person to achieve the highest AoE and single target sustained DPS they can, using ONLY CLASS ABILITIES. This result will be your measure of balance. You then modify the abilities of each class until the values converge on a single integer. At this point, you will have achieved balance.
Then, you will conduct the same experiment, but instruct each person to build a tank, and adjust the abilities until the survivability of each tank is equal. Then, a healer, and adjust the healing abilities until each character is able to achieve the same heals per second.
Unless you do this, you need just come out and say that a Sorc is the DPS class (which is laughable, because the abilities that give Sorcs the best DPS are abilities that are also able to be used by every other class), that the DK is the tank, and the Templar the Healer, and admit that true "balancing" isn't something you never intend to do.
Either way, you have a responsibility to the people who give you money each month to do one or the other and put this issue to bed once and for all.
You will never hear a gamer from the 80's or 90's complaining that some player is "too good", or that some quest is "broken" or "too complicated" because games used to be HARD. There was a time when when games required you to think, when you needed to solve problems, find solutions, and complete complicated tasks. If you were able to do this, the game rewarded your intelligence and ingenuity with a prize, or a level completion. If you weren't competent enough to solve a puzzle, or not skilled enough to complete a level, the game didn't feel bad in letting you know it. If you couldn't get to the end of donkey kong and rescue the princess, that was that. You just couldn't do it. Sure, your ego might be a little bruised, but at the end of the day we all became better gamers (and consequently, human beings) because of it. As games evolved, so did this system. In older MMO's, if you were naive enough to fall for a scam, you lost your gold or items and that was that. You couldn't run crying to mommy to get your stuff back... Sure it sucked, but you picked yourself up, brushed yourself off, and learned to be a little smarter. You learned a valuable LIFE lesson, not just how to play a videogame.
I realize that if you implemented such a system, where not everyone was able to complete the game, or have the best gear, or feel awesome about being amazing in PvP, you'd loose your player base. However, if you let the industry standard of nanny-gaming, hand holding, trophy giving, and boo-boo kissing continue, you're going to lose a player base that is much, much more valuable than these bickering, complaining kids we have today.
TL;DR:
To this end, I propose a final solution to end the bickering about class balancing: A solution that seems almost TOO obvious, and something you should have done from day one. The main problem is that some classes (DK, Templar) have very good class specific skills, while others (NB, Sorc), do not. With a maxed out Sorc, the highest DPS you can achieve using ONLY class abilities is around 500. Therefore, DPS Sorc must necessarily use a destruction staff as its primary means of attack if he wants to have a DPS that is competitive with a DK or NB. This represents an in inherent imbalance, because while a Sorc must rely on a destruction staff as his primary means of damage, a DK has access to all the same destruction abilities, in addition to his class abilities. If you apply the same thought experiment to tanks and healers, you begin to see a very, very large problem that cannot be addressed by simply altering the numbers of one or two abilities.
Furthermore, changing any ability with regard to weapon skills is an exercise in futility, as it does nothing to alter the balance of the game, according to the above stated principles.
I suggest you conduct a very simple experiment. This experiment is based upon two ideas: first, your policy of "any role, any class", and second, the fact that each class has equal access to any weapon tree, as well as equal access to all of the various items and sets within the game.
1. Because each class has access to every weapon skill tree and every item, the only thing differentiating classes are their 3 class skill trees and the accompanying passives.
2. Control for as many variables as you can: weapons and armor. Ideally, you would have a "naked" character, using no weapons and no armor.
3. The variables you modify will be the actual numbers for each individual skill, and if need be, you would modify the effects of the skill.
During this experiment, you will have 4 separate people. You will instruct each to make a character of a different class from the others, but of the same race, to control for racial passives. You will then instruct each person to achieve the highest AoE and single target sustained DPS they can, using ONLY CLASS ABILITIES. This result will be your measure of balance. You then modify the abilities of each class until the values converge on a single integer. At this point, you will have achieved balance.
Then, you will conduct the same experiment, but instruct each person to build a tank, and adjust the abilities until the survivability of each tank is equal. Then, a healer, and adjust the healing abilities until each character is able to achieve the same heals per second.
Unless you do this, you need just come out and say that a Sorc is the DPS class (which is laughable, because the abilities that give Sorcs the best DPS are abilities that are also able to be used by every other class), that the DK is the tank, and the Templar the Healer, and admit that true "balancing" isn't something you never intend to do.
Either way, you have a responsibility to the people who give you money each month to do one or the other and put this issue to bed once and for all.
15
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booksmcread✭✭✭✭Essentially, these "discussions" amount to millennials crying about something they perceive as unfair, when in all likelihood the actual problem is that they have become accustomed to the new industry trend of hand holding and the mentality that everyone gets a trophy.
Unfortunately, this has become a society-wide issue and can no longer be attributed to a generational category. Further, while it may have started with millennials, those millennials were created, raised, educated, trained, etc. by much older people and it was these older people that actually developed and instilled this mentality into society through the millennials.
But, blaming society's woes on today's youth is what us old people do best. Now, get off my lawn!
8 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I will say it again, millennials inherited the dregs of everyone else's success. They make less money for the same work, are in deeper debt from student loans and in general, have less to look forward to, work harder with less vacations and benefits, and won't live to see SS benefits.
You'd probably whine too if past generations had screwed over your future.
(and no I'm not a millenial, this complaint just irks me)Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.9 -
are you serious? I hope they do ANYTHING other than make all classes the same. it will never and should never have "perfect balance". the point of a character building game is having options and choices that play out differently; the price of that is difficulty with balance, but the balance solution is certainly NOT taking away diversity and uniqueness of classes and playstyles.0 -
sajackson✭✭✭This post simply sounds like a Sorc player trying to avoid the badly needed nerf. All that bull about millenials etc.. is just window dressing around an otherwise rather poorly stated argument.
And for the record I'm a gamer from the 90s and I can see the obvious class imbalance issues even if you can't.Edited by sajackson on July 24, 2014 5:57PM7 -
Ygaer✭Is it really the general opinion of people that Sorcs are overpowered? They're easily 3rd when it comes to DPS, and have very meh class skills. The only really stand out things they get as class skills are critical surge and negate... they're easily lacking compared to the other classes when you consider desirability in pve. Negate is huge in pvp, I can acknowledge that.Ygaer Meister - AD3
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Jaxom✭✭✭✭Is it really the general opinion of people that Sorcs are overpowered? They're easily 3rd when it comes to DPS...../quote]
3rd?! Which game are you playing again?Edited by Jaxom on July 24, 2014 6:47PM3 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As you can tell by the comments the majority of ppl think sorcs are either a close second behind DK or maybe FOM with DK nerfs.Is it really the general opinion of people that Sorcs are overpowered? They're easily 3rd when it comes to DPS, and have very meh class skills. The only really stand out things they get as class skills are critical surge and negate... they're easily lacking compared to the other classes when you consider desirability in pve. Negate is huge in pvp, I can acknowledge that.
Nightblades with warlock build can just about keep pace but are generally a bit squishier no crit surge for us.
I can't comment on Templar dps the one in my guild was busy earlier when I invited him to do vet crypt of hearts.
If you feel you lack dps there are plenty of trials vids of sorcs doing impressive damage. My suggestion would be get some ideas there.
As for overall game balance I feel the stamina magica divide is the bigger issue. With class balance being secondary.
As for desirability in pve it is usually sorcs and DK,s that are the most desirable.
For pvp I notice you didn't mention how powerful and often exploited bolt escape is?
This leads me to think either you are trolling quite successfully in which case gratz you got me or you need to practice with your sorc and find a good build you are comfortable with. If that is the case make a post entitled sorc dps how? I would be willing to bet you will find plenty of sorcs willing to help.Edited by lathbury on July 24, 2014 9:09PM1 -
CapuchinSeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭booksmcread wrote: »Essentially, these "discussions" amount to millennials crying about something they perceive as unfair, when in all likelihood the actual problem is that they have become accustomed to the new industry trend of hand holding and the mentality that everyone gets a trophy.
Unfortunately, this has become a society-wide issue and can no longer be attributed to a generational category. Further, while it may have started with millennials, those millennials were created, raised, educated, trained, etc. by much older people and it was these older people that actually developed and instilled this mentality into society through the millennials.
But, blaming society's woes on today's youth is what us old people do best. Now, get off my lawn!
Ugh please, there's been some ridiculous balance issues in this game, I'm a gamer from the 80s and frankly most of this post seems to be "TLDR please don't nerd Sorcs it's all the young peoples fault".3 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭So ignore that times changed and how now there is a lot more competition when it comes to games and just do it anyway.
Seems like a good plan , i dont see what could go wrong at all.
The real issue with your whole method , which is what actually creates the whole balance issue ingames , is that while people really want balance , they also want the skills and so on to be different.
While i want them to remove the classes so we can pick any skill on any char , i dont want them to make all the classes the same with the same exact skills."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
The_Drexill✭✭✭✭Okay Zenimax, surely you've read through the thousands of topics begging you to nerf this, buff that, and fix all the things. Essentially, these "discussions" amount to millennials crying about something they perceive as unfair, when in all likelihood the actual problem is that they have become accustomed to the new industry trend of hand holding and the mentality that everyone gets a trophy.
You will never hear a gamer from the 80's or 90's complaining that some player is "too good", or that some quest is "broken" or "too complicated" because games used to be HARD. There was a time when when games required you to think, when you needed to solve problems, find solutions, and complete complicated tasks. If you were able to do this, the game rewarded your intelligence and ingenuity with a prize, or a level completion. If you weren't competent enough to solve a puzzle, or not skilled enough to complete a level, the game didn't feel bad in letting you know it. If you couldn't get to the end of donkey kong and rescue the princess, that was that. You just couldn't do it. Sure, your ego might be a little bruised, but at the end of the day we all became better gamers (and consequently, human beings) because of it. As games evolved, so did this system. In older MMO's, if you were naive enough to fall for a scam, you lost your gold or items and that was that. You couldn't run crying to mommy to get your stuff back... Sure it sucked, but you picked yourself up, brushed yourself off, and learned to be a little smarter. You learned a valuable LIFE lesson, not just how to play a videogame.
I realize that if you implemented such a system, where not everyone was able to complete the game, or have the best gear, or feel awesome about being amazing in PvP, you'd loose your player base. However, if you let the industry standard of nanny-gaming, hand holding, trophy giving, and boo-boo kissing continue, you're going to lose a player base that is much, much more valuable than these bickering, complaining kids we have today.
TL;DR:
To this end, I propose a final solution to end the bickering about class balancing: A solution that seems almost TOO obvious, and something you should have done from day one. The main problem is that some classes (DK, Templar) have very good class specific skills, while others (NB, Sorc), do not. With a maxed out Sorc, the highest DPS you can achieve using ONLY class abilities is around 500. Therefore, DPS Sorc must necessarily use a destruction staff as its primary means of attack if he wants to have a DPS that is competitive with a DK or NB. This represents an in inherent imbalance, because while a Sorc must rely on a destruction staff as his primary means of damage, a DK has access to all the same destruction abilities, in addition to his class abilities. If you apply the same thought experiment to tanks and healers, you begin to see a very, very large problem that cannot be addressed by simply altering the numbers of one or two abilities.
Furthermore, changing any ability with regard to weapon skills is an exercise in futility, as it does nothing to alter the balance of the game, according to the above stated principles.
I suggest you conduct a very simple experiment. This experiment is based upon two ideas: first, your policy of "any role, any class", and second, the fact that each class has equal access to any weapon tree, as well as equal access to all of the various items and sets within the game.
1. Because each class has access to every weapon skill tree and every item, the only thing differentiating classes are their 3 class skill trees and the accompanying passives.
2. Control for as many variables as you can: weapons and armor. Ideally, you would have a "naked" character, using no weapons and no armor.
3. The variables you modify will be the actual numbers for each individual skill, and if need be, you would modify the effects of the skill.
During this experiment, you will have 4 separate people. You will instruct each to make a character of a different class from the others, but of the same race, to control for racial passives. You will then instruct each person to achieve the highest AoE and single target sustained DPS they can, using ONLY CLASS ABILITIES. This result will be your measure of balance. You then modify the abilities of each class until the values converge on a single integer. At this point, you will have achieved balance.
Then, you will conduct the same experiment, but instruct each person to build a tank, and adjust the abilities until the survivability of each tank is equal. Then, a healer, and adjust the healing abilities until each character is able to achieve the same heals per second.
Unless you do this, you need just come out and say that a Sorc is the DPS class (which is laughable, because the abilities that give Sorcs the best DPS are abilities that are also able to be used by every other class), that the DK is the tank, and the Templar the Healer, and admit that true "balancing" isn't something you never intend to do.
Either way, you have a responsibility to the people who give you money each month to do one or the other and put this issue to bed once and for all.
This guy.... has no idea what he's talking about.
Brandizzle - NB
Drexill The Unbreakable - Sorc
For teh covenant.10 -
GreyBrow✭✭✭✭If you feel you lack dps there are plenty of trials vids of sorcs doing impressive damage. My suggestion would be get some ideas there.
--> These sorcs are using weapon abilities, not class abilities.For pvp I notice you didn't mention how powerful and often exploited bolt escape is?
--> Bolt escape already got its nerf. The absorb function is broken, and if you're in combat, 99% of the time you only have enough magicka to cast it twice. IF you do cast it twice, your regen is next to nothing and you're completely out of magicka. Best case scenario: you can hide. 95% of the time, if you need to resort to bolt escape, you're going to die anyway. "broken" would describe a skill that enables you to dominate other players (read: banner/talons). Bolt escape is an escape skill. All I'm hearing from you is crying about how you were fighting a sorc who got away... not a sorc who used bolt escape to root and do 2k damage to you.While i want them to remove the classes so we can pick any skill on any char , i dont want them to make all the classes the same with the same exact skills.
--> this is not what i'm suggesting. I am only suggesting that they equalize the damage/buff values so people stop complaining that one class is overpowered and one class is underpowered. If they buffed the numbers of the NB skills to be more in line with the DK/sorc numbers, NB's would have ZERO ground to stand on while complaining about their character. As it stands, the only viable class skill sorcs can use to attack is crystal fragments, which takes 2.5 seconds to cast, and does ~750 damage, MAX. Do the math... that's about 250 DPS. Add in the occasional proc from using another skill, velocious curse (3.5 sec to cause damage), your DPS from CLASS ONLY skills is very low compared to the DPS from CLASS ONLY skills of the NB/DK.
You cannot argue this, it is a fact.
4 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭
With a maxed out Sorc, the highest DPS you can achieve using ONLY class abilities is around 500. Therefore, DPS Sorc must necessarily use a destruction staff as its primary means of attack if he wants to have a DPS that is competitive with a DK or NB.
HUH? OMG you mean a sorcerer might have to use a destruction staff to get good dps? The Horror.
You lose all credibility when making statements like this. Quit listening to the sound of your voice, but rather the content of your words.
Sorcs have NO issues with DPS at them moment lols.
3 -
GreyBrow✭✭✭✭Sorcs have NO issues with DPS at them moment lols.
Using a destruction staff, single target DPS maxes out at 1k. That is NOT a sorc doing the DPS, it is the staff. ANY class can use a destruction staff and achieve that DPS.
1. People have been complaining about balance issues. (NB underpowered, DK overpowered)
2. Zenimax claims that you can be "any class, any role"
3. In order to understand the inherent class balance issues, you need to examine ONLY the class abilities, because all the classes have access to any weapon.
4. Suppose that one class is only able to achieve a maximum DPS of 500, while another class is able to achieve a DPS of 1000. This necessarily represents an imbalance that is specific to the class.
5. Of course, that class can always use a destruction staff to reach 1000 DPS, but the entire point is that if you NEED to use a staff for DPS, that class has an inherent DPS issue.
6. This means that if a class has an inherently higher DPS using only class abilities, adding in a weapon will only exaggerate the imbalance between classes.
For fun, try going onto the PTS and making a sorc-tank. Until you do, shut up. If the classes were truly balanced and Zenimax wasn't lying about "any class any role", you could tank trials as a sorc. As it stands, this is impossible.
A DK is the best tank class in the game. A DK can also heal equally as well as a sorc, because they both rely only on Resto staff abilities to heal. And A DK can use a destruction staff for better AoE and single target damage.
Similarly, a NB makes an even worse healer or tank than a Sorc. As it stands, the only viable role for a NB is DPS... and even then, sorcs and DKs are often better suited for this role because of their ability to maintain range or survive melee attacks.
When one class is the best Tank, the best DPS, and is just as good at healing as 2 other classes, there is a huge ******* problem. You cannot claim this isn't the case.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]Edited by ZOS_JuhoJ on July 31, 2014 9:16AM3 -
Lizelle✭✭✭As a Templar I'm pretty sure I can't do 1k DPS using a Destruction Staff and it's abilities.
For the most part I don't agree with your post, however I would like ZOS to remove classes and just give everyone access to all class trees.2 -
Jermu73✭✭✭Don't nerf anything just give us major puff for everyone
Like magicka/Stamina incombat regen 500 %. Edited by Jermu73 on July 25, 2014 3:56AM0 -
Humanistic✭✭✭✭Millennials? Let me be the first one to say, if we don't like it, we don't play it. I've seen over a hundred player friends of mine (between ages 30-50) leave this game because they just don't like it. THAT'S the difference, plain and simple.
What you are describing, is prototype testing - this needs to be done whether you have a simple, puzzle-based 2D game, or a complex multi-player game.
Refer to this article to understand what I'm talking about:
http://archive.gamedev.net/archive/reference/design/features/evolution/index.html
This doesn't happen at ZOS, if it did, the Veteran system wouldn't be getting trashed for one, it would be getting tweaked and refined - because it went through prototype testing.3 -
Epona222✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I've never heard so much supercilious and arrogant language used in a post anywhere until now. I don't even know what a "Millennial" is, but I suspect it is a derogatory term used to tar a whole load of people with whatever grudge-filled brush the OP is wielding.
Edit: Oh and btw, your "TLDR" summary was LONGER than the rest of the post, which is really quite odd.Edited by Epona222 on July 25, 2014 4:17AMGM - Ghost Sea Trading Co - NA PC
Epona was a Romano-Celtic goddess dating back to around 1800 to 2000 years before computer games were invented.9 -
Carnagan✭✭✭You will never hear a gamer from the 80's or 90's complaining that some player is "too good", or that some quest is "broken" or "too complicated" because games used to be HARD.
Clearly someone never stepped foot in an arcade during the 80s and 90s. Or talked to friends who were playing the games at the time in the 80s and 90s. Or watched a single episode of the Angry Video Game Nerd.
As someone who has done all three, I can honestly say that your thesis became unreadable after this bizarre statement.Edited by Carnagan on July 25, 2014 12:35PM"You dream of the Moon and a man who is less than a man."
Proud explorer of Tamriel since 19964 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭To the op in your initial statement you stated that sorc was below nb in the dd role and less desirable in raids . Then in another post in this thread said this
"Similarly, a NB makes an even worse healer or tank than a Sorc. As it stands, the only viable role for a NB is DPS... and even then, sorcs and DKs are often better suited for this role because of their ability to maintain range or survive melee attacks"
So which is it? Also just because someone disagrees with your argument don't assume they do not understand it.
It could be... Brace yourself that your argument is factually incorrect and therefore invalid. Looking at the number of ppl disagreeing with you and the lack of agrees. I would suggest this is the case.4 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭Okay Zenimax, surely you've read through the thousands of topics begging you to nerf this, buff that, and fix all the things. Essentially, these "discussions" amount to millennials crying about something they perceive as unfair, when in all likelihood the actual problem is that they have become accustomed to the new industry trend of hand holding and the mentality that everyone gets a trophy.
You will never hear a gamer from the 80's or 90's complaining that some player is "too good", or that some quest is "broken" or "too complicated" because games used to be HARD. There was a time when when games required you to think, when you needed to solve problems, find solutions, and complete complicated tasks. If you were able to do this, the game rewarded your intelligence and ingenuity with a prize, or a level completion. If you weren't competent enough to solve a puzzle, or not skilled enough to complete a level, the game didn't feel bad in letting you know it. If you couldn't get to the end of donkey kong and rescue the princess, that was that. You just couldn't do it. Sure, your ego might be a little bruised, but at the end of the day we all became better gamers (and consequently, human beings) because of it. As games evolved, so did this system. In older MMO's, if you were naive enough to fall for a scam, you lost your gold or items and that was that. You couldn't run crying to mommy to get your stuff back... Sure it sucked, but you picked yourself up, brushed yourself off, and learned to be a little smarter. You learned a valuable LIFE lesson, not just how to play a videogame.
I realize that if you implemented such a system, where not everyone was able to complete the game, or have the best gear, or feel awesome about being amazing in PvP, you'd loose your player base. However, if you let the industry standard of nanny-gaming, hand holding, trophy giving, and boo-boo kissing continue, you're going to lose a player base that is much, much more valuable than these bickering, complaining kids we have today.
TL;DR:
To this end, I propose a final solution to end the bickering about class balancing: A solution that seems almost TOO obvious, and something you should have done from day one. The main problem is that some classes (DK, Templar) have very good class specific skills, while others (NB, Sorc), do not. With a maxed out Sorc, the highest DPS you can achieve using ONLY class abilities is around 500. Therefore, DPS Sorc must necessarily use a destruction staff as its primary means of attack if he wants to have a DPS that is competitive with a DK or NB. This represents an in inherent imbalance, because while a Sorc must rely on a destruction staff as his primary means of damage, a DK has access to all the same destruction abilities, in addition to his class abilities. If you apply the same thought experiment to tanks and healers, you begin to see a very, very large problem that cannot be addressed by simply altering the numbers of one or two abilities.
Furthermore, changing any ability with regard to weapon skills is an exercise in futility, as it does nothing to alter the balance of the game, according to the above stated principles.
I suggest you conduct a very simple experiment. This experiment is based upon two ideas: first, your policy of "any role, any class", and second, the fact that each class has equal access to any weapon tree, as well as equal access to all of the various items and sets within the game.
1. Because each class has access to every weapon skill tree and every item, the only thing differentiating classes are their 3 class skill trees and the accompanying passives.
2. Control for as many variables as you can: weapons and armor. Ideally, you would have a "naked" character, using no weapons and no armor.
3. The variables you modify will be the actual numbers for each individual skill, and if need be, you would modify the effects of the skill.
During this experiment, you will have 4 separate people. You will instruct each to make a character of a different class from the others, but of the same race, to control for racial passives. You will then instruct each person to achieve the highest AoE and single target sustained DPS they can, using ONLY CLASS ABILITIES. This result will be your measure of balance. You then modify the abilities of each class until the values converge on a single integer. At this point, you will have achieved balance.
Then, you will conduct the same experiment, but instruct each person to build a tank, and adjust the abilities until the survivability of each tank is equal. Then, a healer, and adjust the healing abilities until each character is able to achieve the same heals per second.
Unless you do this, you need just come out and say that a Sorc is the DPS class (which is laughable, because the abilities that give Sorcs the best DPS are abilities that are also able to be used by every other class), that the DK is the tank, and the Templar the Healer, and admit that true "balancing" isn't something you never intend to do.
Either way, you have a responsibility to the people who give you money each month to do one or the other and put this issue to bed once and for all.Sorcs have NO issues with DPS at them moment lols.
Using a destruction staff, single target DPS maxes out at 1k. That is NOT a sorc doing the DPS, it is the staff. ANY class can use a destruction staff and achieve that DPS.
Obviously you're not intelligent enough to understand the argument, so let me put it into kindergarden terms for you:
1. People have been complaining about balance issues. (NB underpowered, DK overpowered)
2. Zenimax claims that you can be "any class, any role"
3. In order to understand the inherent class balance issues, you need to examine ONLY the class abilities, because all the classes have access to any weapon.
4. Suppose that one class is only able to achieve a maximum DPS of 500, while another class is able to achieve a DPS of 1000. This necessarily represents an imbalance that is specific to the class.
5. Of course, that class can always use a destruction staff to reach 1000 DPS, but the entire point is that if you NEED to use a staff for DPS, that class has an inherent DPS issue.
6. This means that if a class has an inherently higher DPS using only class abilities, adding in a weapon will only exaggerate the imbalance between classes.
For fun, try going onto the PTS and making a sorc-tank. Until you do, shut up. If the classes were truly balanced and Zenimax wasn't lying about "any class any role", you could tank trials as a sorc. As it stands, this is impossible.
A DK is the best tank class in the game. A DK can also heal equally as well as a sorc, because they both rely only on Resto staff abilities to heal. And A DK can use a destruction staff for better AoE and single target damage.
Similarly, a NB makes an even worse healer or tank than a Sorc. As it stands, the only viable role for a NB is DPS... and even then, sorcs and DKs are often better suited for this role because of their ability to maintain range or survive melee attacks.
When one class is the best Tank, the best DPS, and is just as good at healing as 2 other classes, there is a huge ******* problem. You cannot claim this isn't the case.
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Ygaer✭I think anyone who has spent time and effort trying to get really good trial runtimes would agree with me that sorcs are generally behind NB and DK for DPS. There're a LOT of really bad nb players in this game, and unfortunately because of the poor design of weapon abilities currently a bad NB is much worse than a bad sorc. But a good nb easily does as much or more single target DPS while also providing veil of blades which is definitely one of the best pve raid ults in the game.
I really wasn't aware how ignorant most people are of just how good a good nightblade is right now, They're amazing. The only value a sorc has over a nightblade/DK is their execute, which is unrivaled in effectiveness right now. Unfortunately, that only applies to the last 20% of the fight. Feel free to disagree, but unless you've run trials hundreds of times with other players who knew what they were doing and have seen what they parse for each fight, then you don't really have all the facts. Sorcs on average will be 3rd, behind NBs and DKs for single target DPS. Good sorcs will beat bad NBs of course, but if player skill/gear is a constan, that's just the way it is.Ygaer Meister - AD2 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh and point 3 of your last statement is wrong weapon abilities and passives have synergies with certain classes for example a DK with inferno staff and nb good with restro.
So while anyone can use them some classes will benefit more. Case in point restorations last passive improves all healing benefits a siphoning nb more than a DK.Edited by lathbury on July 25, 2014 3:26PM1 -
lathbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think anyone who has spent time and effort trying to get really good trial runtimes would agree with me that sorcs are generally behind NB and DK for DPS. There're a LOT of really bad nb players in this game, and unfortunately because of the poor design of weapon abilities currently a bad NB is much worse than a bad sorc. But a good nb easily does as much or more single target DPS while also providing veil of blades which is definitely one of the best pve raid ults in the game.
I really wasn't aware how ignorant most people are of just how good a good nightblade is right now, They're amazing. The only value a sorc has over a nightblade/DK is their execute, which is unrivaled in effectiveness right now. Unfortunately, that only applies to the last 20% of the fight. Feel free to disagree, but unless you've run trials hundreds of times with other players who knew what they were doing and have seen what they parse for each fight, then you don't really have all the facts. Sorcs on average will be 3rd, behind NBs and DKs for single target DPS. Good sorcs will beat bad NBs of course, but if player skill/gear is a constan, that's just the way it is.
Go on then I'll bite explain how a nb is so much better than a sorc. Cause in my experience in raids and dungeons they are very close and the nb will be squishier due to lack of crit surge. The nb May out aoe in large trash but single target is very close. And nb execute killers blade is a second valuable execute and sorcs ultimates are good as well negate is crucial and atronachs can really help with adds.
I'm not saying vob isn't great but to say nb are streaks ahead is wrong our magika regen is not great either we either use siphoning which nerfs damage or in most case symmetry which requires good heals.Edited by lathbury on July 25, 2014 3:06PM1 -
Ygaer✭Nightblades have the best single target ult gen in the game, which is generally what puts them ahead of sorcs. They use spell symmetry just like all good sorcs do (dark conversion is a huge dps loss by comparison). It's not a matter of justifying it, it's just how the numbers have played out. I'm currently 2nd on NA for hel ra and I've got a 12ish minutes AA, and I've run both many many many times. Our good nightblades basically always out dps me, period, and I know I'm doing as much as any sorc I've ever seen.Ygaer Meister - AD2
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Okay Zenimax, surely you've read through the thousands of topics begging you to nerf this, buff that, and fix all the things. Essentially, these "discussions" amount to millennials crying about something they perceive as unfair, when in all likelihood the actual problem is that they have become accustomed to the new industry trend of hand holding and the mentality that everyone gets a trophy.
You will never hear a gamer from the 80's or 90's complaining that some player is "too good", or that some quest is "broken" or "too complicated" because games used to be HARD. There was a time when when games required you to think, when you needed to solve problems, find solutions, and complete complicated tasks. If you were able to do this, the game rewarded your intelligence and ingenuity with a prize, or a level completion. If you weren't competent enough to solve a puzzle, or not skilled enough to complete a level, the game didn't feel bad in letting you know it. If you couldn't get to the end of donkey kong and rescue the princess, that was that. You just couldn't do it. Sure, your ego might be a little bruised, but at the end of the day we all became better gamers (and consequently, human beings) because of it. As games evolved, so did this system. In older MMO's, if you were naive enough to fall for a scam, you lost your gold or items and that was that. You couldn't run crying to mommy to get your stuff back... Sure it sucked, but you picked yourself up, brushed yourself off, and learned to be a little smarter. You learned a valuable LIFE lesson, not just how to play a videogame.
I realize that if you implemented such a system, where not everyone was able to complete the game, or have the best gear, or feel awesome about being amazing in PvP, you'd loose your player base. However, if you let the industry standard of nanny-gaming, hand holding, trophy giving, and boo-boo kissing continue, you're going to lose a player base that is much, much more valuable than these bickering, complaining kids we have today.
TL;DR:
To this end, I propose a final solution to end the bickering about class balancing: A solution that seems almost TOO obvious, and something you should have done from day one. The main problem is that some classes (DK, Templar) have very good class specific skills, while others (NB, Sorc), do not. With a maxed out Sorc, the highest DPS you can achieve using ONLY class abilities is around 500. Therefore, DPS Sorc must necessarily use a destruction staff as its primary means of attack if he wants to have a DPS that is competitive with a DK or NB. This represents an in inherent imbalance, because while a Sorc must rely on a destruction staff as his primary means of damage, a DK has access to all the same destruction abilities, in addition to his class abilities. If you apply the same thought experiment to tanks and healers, you begin to see a very, very large problem that cannot be addressed by simply altering the numbers of one or two abilities.
Furthermore, changing any ability with regard to weapon skills is an exercise in futility, as it does nothing to alter the balance of the game, according to the above stated principles.
I suggest you conduct a very simple experiment. This experiment is based upon two ideas: first, your policy of "any role, any class", and second, the fact that each class has equal access to any weapon tree, as well as equal access to all of the various items and sets within the game.
1. Because each class has access to every weapon skill tree and every item, the only thing differentiating classes are their 3 class skill trees and the accompanying passives.
2. Control for as many variables as you can: weapons and armor. Ideally, you would have a "naked" character, using no weapons and no armor.
3. The variables you modify will be the actual numbers for each individual skill, and if need be, you would modify the effects of the skill.
During this experiment, you will have 4 separate people. You will instruct each to make a character of a different class from the others, but of the same race, to control for racial passives. You will then instruct each person to achieve the highest AoE and single target sustained DPS they can, using ONLY CLASS ABILITIES. This result will be your measure of balance. You then modify the abilities of each class until the values converge on a single integer. At this point, you will have achieved balance.
Then, you will conduct the same experiment, but instruct each person to build a tank, and adjust the abilities until the survivability of each tank is equal. Then, a healer, and adjust the healing abilities until each character is able to achieve the same heals per second.
Unless you do this, you need just come out and say that a Sorc is the DPS class (which is laughable, because the abilities that give Sorcs the best DPS are abilities that are also able to be used by every other class), that the DK is the tank, and the Templar the Healer, and admit that true "balancing" isn't something you never intend to do.
Either way, you have a responsibility to the people who give you money each month to do one or the other and put this issue to bed once and for all.
In regard of your comment about what gamers expect these days from games they play answer would be - Hard is ok, stupid is not ok.
Regarding your idea of experiment - result will be questionable coz u basically forgot x genders of spells/passives who are greatly influencing char output like dps enhancers ( including passives ) influencing weapon output as well, damage mitigation/survivability which is providing for dps uptime , mobility spells , spells which boost resources, class specifics in how frequently can fire ultimates, spells which are enhancing group output, ....... Your idea how to conduct test is simply not good. On basis of that test u found that sorcs cant do more then 500 if they are naked. That test is not reliable and your conclusion is wrong
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Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's kind of funny, when I die, my reaction is: "Well, I need better tactics, gear or some levels or group with someone" I don't fire off a forum post saying that something needs to be nerfed in the game.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"5