PVP Medium Armor Sneak Perks Increase Request

Kewljag_66_ESO · July 2014

I would like to see medium armor users really excel at sneaking, right now the passives that medium armor receive for sneaking is not that much, Light and heavy armor are almost just as effective and can hide almost just as effective. Some characters that are created completely around sneaking and assassin play go for light armor just because medium armor's sneaking passives aren't that noticable. If your planning on being a stealth player, medium armor should be hands down the best choice, but its not. I would like to see these 2 changes.

(1) i would like to see medium armor sneak bonuses increased another 20% and give medium armor the ability to see enemy players in sneak from further away (30% increase)(sneak vision), just see them not uncover them or detect them. this way you can go in for the sneak attack. if the enemy player has the same amount of medium armor pieces the sneak vision bonuses cancel each other out.

(2) light armor and heavy armor's sneak movement endurance usage also drain while not moving (very slow). this way they have to come out of sneak at times or lose all stamina. this would also really give medium armor that sneaking purpose it needs and give it much more of a reason to choose to use and even help to balance out the problem with Light Armor being considered superior right now. This is just for medium armor, i do agree that Heavy Armor needs some equivelent buffs in its department.

One more thing, Mage Light.... I think this is a very good countering skill and am fine with it except for one problem. being able to go into sneak with it up. If i see a mage with it up I stay away, it does its purpose. but when that person goes into sneak or is already sneaking, they become the better assassin and will uncover you. You dont know its up to avoid it. If you have a bright orb circling you, you should be easy to see....... but thats not how it works. So i really think for game play and just reality mages Light should not be usable while sneaking.

Tintinabula · July 2014

With spellcrafting there will be a spell you can create called muffle..it increases your stealthiness.

Galrukh · July 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

With spellcrafting there will be a spell you can create called muffle..it increases your stealthiness.

Which will presumably be possible to put on all types of armor I guess, thus making medium armor even less desirable.

Sharee · July 2014

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

(1) i would like to see medium armor sneak bonuses increased another 20% and give medium armor the ability to see enemy players in sneak from further away (30% increase)(sneak vision), just see them not uncover them or detect them. this way you can go in for the sneak attack. if the enemy player has the same amount of medium armor pieces the sneak vision bonuses cancel each other out.

I believe currently the stealth detection radius does not work properly.

What i mean is, the radius around you from where you can be seen in stealth is always the same, no matter what armor you are wearing.

I play a NB exclusively in PvP, and i have played it a lot in both full medium armor and full light armor, and from my experience, there is absolutely no difference between the two when it come to who gets the jump on whom. Wearing either(and no matter what he s wearing), if i do not use stealth detection potion i don't see an enemy player until i am right on top of him.

They need to fix this. A player wearing light or heavy armor needs to have the 'detection circle' around him much larger than one wearing medium armor.

Right now, the only noticeable advantage medium armor has in the stealth departement is the lower stamina drain, which is not much of a problem for the other armor types anyway - it only comes into play for long treks in stealth, not in the typical move-stop-move pattern.

skeletorz_ESO · July 2014

I agree with all of the changes in this thread except for in (2), instead of having light and heavy users very slowly drain stamina while crouched, but not moving, I'd say that just having stamina not regen would be enough.

R0M2K · July 2014

My 2 cents: lower the amount of time required to enter Shealth for medium armor users.

Lynx7386 · July 2014

No matter what they do, we'll still be spotted by NPCs in cyrodiil from well beyond bow range.

Kewljag_66_ESO · July 2014

skeletorz_ESO wrote: »

I agree with all of the changes in this thread except for in (2), instead of having light and heavy users very slowly drain stamina while crouched, but not moving, I'd say that just having stamina not regen would be enough.

That would work too, I was just throwing ideas out there but i think this would be better and not over the top.

Kewljag_66_ESO · July 2014

Lynx7386 wrote: »

No matter what they do, we'll still be spotted by NPCs in cyrodiil from well beyond bow range.

I agree but this is just 1 thing and only effects us at keep seiges, Atleast with changes i requested we would be more effective in open field and when guards are dead or locked onto aggro to an ally.

A things ive learned learned at keeps is to make sure you stay out of line of sight from these guards, especially the mages on those keep corners. If you see them in attack stance you can sneak past them or even up to them because they are locked in aggro state on an ally. But i do agree there detection needs to be toned way down

DeLindsay · July 2014

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

If your planning on being a stealth player, medium armor should be hands down the best choice, but its not.

7pcs of Medium Armor with 2/2 Improved Sneak is vastly superior to Light or Heavy users in the Sneaking department. Add Night Mother's Embrace (LvL 23-28) or Nightshade (VR6+) plus Wood Elf/Khajit and you can almost walk right past enemies while Sneaking. Yes there's still the issue with Mage Light and NPC Guards but really there needs to be a good counter to Sneaking in a game where everyone can Sneak.

I do kind of agree that Mage Light should auto-off when you enter Sneak. Seems an odd ability to have active while Sneaking.

Cody · July 2014

I would like these changes. my NB uses full medium. right now the only thing that makes it stand out is the speed increase from the passives. the armor ability for it is a joke. im not even going to spend the points unlocking it. Medium armor should allow the user to have a "better"(I say better because idk how the sneak radius actually works:() sneak radius. I myself think it should completely stop the stamina drain when you sneak walk. but more hiding ability, and being able to see stealthed players alto easier, would be awesome.

reften · July 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

If your planning on being a stealth player, medium armor should be hands down the best choice, but its not.

7pcs of Medium Armor with 2/2 Improved Sneak is vastly superior to Light or Heavy users in the Sneaking department. Add Night Mother's Embrace (LvL 23-28) or Nightshade (VR6+) plus Wood Elf/Khajit and you can almost walk right past enemies while Sneaking.

You just described my character...and I can tell you from experience, that you're 100% wrong.

DeLindsay · July 2014

oren74 wrote: »

You just described my character...and I can tell you from experience, that you're 100% wrong.

My comment and what I quoted below.

DeLindsay wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

If your planning on being a stealth player, medium armor should be hands down the best choice, but its not.

7pcs of Medium Armor with 2/2 Improved Sneak is vastly superior to Light or Heavy users in the Sneaking department. Add Night Mother's Embrace (LvL 23-28) or Nightshade (VR6+) plus Wood Elf/Khajit and you can almost walk right past enemies while Sneaking. Yes there's still the issue with Mage Light and NPC Guards but really there needs to be a good counter to Sneaking in a game where everyone can Sneak.

I do kind of agree that Mage Light should auto-off when you enter Sneak. Seems an odd ability to have active while Sneaking.

So re-reading what I quoted and how I responded, please explain how am I wrong? The OP wants Medium Armor to be superior for Sneaking, which I stated that already is. I also stated how to improve it further with 2 different armor sets depending on your character level as well as which Races help. I went on to say that with the exception of Mage Light and NPC Guards you can indeed with the above listed suggestions get very close to enemies/players before detection (if they aren't also using Stealth Detect pots).

reften · July 2014

ok, I admittedly suck at quoting.

Short is - I run with 7 pieces of medium, wood elf, and have tested with and without nightshade...can't tell a difference. Guards pick me up at an insane distance, and non-cyrodiil mobs...I have to be behind them to sneak in melee range.

Non-guard mobs - I think it's fine, I don't need any more stealth'y goodness. Cyrodiil guards...it's crazy, like nothing matters.

PvP - I think it's fine too. If I get in melee range from the back, I can surprise people.

I do think the sneaking is overpowered for non-NB classes though. It's too close to NBs. But that I admit I am not speaking first hand on.

But to your point: no, you're wrong that NBs as you described can walk right past enemies. Now, I CAN spam some dark cloak and make it

Kewljag_66_ESO · July 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

You just described my character...and I can tell you from experience, that you're 100% wrong.

My comment and what I quoted below.

DeLindsay wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

If your planning on being a stealth player, medium armor should be hands down the best choice, but its not.

7pcs of Medium Armor with 2/2 Improved Sneak is vastly superior to Light or Heavy users in the Sneaking department. Add Night Mother's Embrace (LvL 23-28) or Nightshade (VR6+) plus Wood Elf/Khajit and you can almost walk right past enemies while Sneaking. Yes there's still the issue with Mage Light and NPC Guards but really there needs to be a good counter to Sneaking in a game where everyone can Sneak.

I do kind of agree that Mage Light should auto-off when you enter Sneak. Seems an odd ability to have active while Sneaking.

So re-reading what I quoted and how I responded, please explain how am I wrong? The OP wants Medium Armor to be superior for Sneaking, which I stated that already is. I also stated how to improve it further with 2 different armor sets depending on your character level as well as which Races help. I went on to say that with the exception of Mage Light and NPC Guards you can indeed with the above listed suggestions get very close to enemies/players before detection (if they aren't also using Stealth Detect pots).

The current medium armor perk is Less area where you can be revielled and reduced staminia drain while sneaking.

When you compare it to the other armor users who sneak the difference is very minor, they sneak almost as effective. They hide just aswell and cannot be found. yes they run out of stamina faster but it regains of u dont move. they ambush people just as effective. i have had many scenerios where me and an enemy player in light armor went into sneak, they see me at the same time i see them OR we dont find each other.

This is what i want..... If i am wearing all medium armor and the enemy is wearing no medium armor and we are somewhat near each other i should be able to find them and see them without them seeing me. This is not even remotely close to the case right now. Other than rediced stamina drain it seems like medium armor does not help u in sneaking scenerios.

DeLindsay · July 2014

oren74 wrote: »

ok, I admittedly suck at quoting.

Short is - I run with 7 pieces of medium, wood elf, and have tested with and without nightshade...can't tell a difference. Guards pick me up at an insane distance, and non-cyrodiil mobs...I have to be behind them to sneak in melee range.

Non-guard mobs - I think it's fine, I don't need any more stealth'y goodness. Cyrodiil guards...it's crazy, like nothing matters.

PvP - I think it's fine too. If I get in melee range from the back, I can surprise people.

I do think the sneaking is overpowered for non-NB classes though. It's too close to NBs. But that I admit I am not speaking first hand on.

But to your point: no, you're wrong that NBs as you described can walk right past enemies. Now, I CAN spam some dark cloak and make it

Fair point. And I certainly agree that NPC Guards in Cyro have superman like sight, but it's probably needed too. As a player who mains as NB, I'm not against NB gaining some form of improved Sneaking over the other 3 Classes as long as it doesn't get out of hand, always gotta think about balance. We do get a speed improvement, though 25% is very minor. As for Sneaking up behind an enemy to get into melee range, tbh I think that's working as intended.

A player in 7pcs of Medium Armor will absolutely get closer (from behind) to any NPC than a player in Light or Heavy armor. Players are different because many play in 3rd person and can literally see behind themselves which defeats the purpose of Sneaking up from behind. That's more of a game design flaw than a Medium Armor passive flaw.

Nightshade or no Nightshade there IS a difference with it on. I can say this from personal experience when I literally snuck through every Craglorn Delve at VR6 to get all the Skyshards the day it launched. I was 7pcs Medium with the 3pc Nightshade + Wood Elf + Vampire + Concealed Weapon + Retreating Maneuvers + Shadowy Disguise just in case I grabbed aggro. I got all the Skyshards except the 1 in the room with all the Dwemer constructs, since it auto-pulls everything without dying once, and only pulling aggro 2 or 3 times.

Kewljag_66_ESO · July 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

ok, I admittedly suck at quoting.

Short is - I run with 7 pieces of medium, wood elf, and have tested with and without nightshade...can't tell a difference. Guards pick me up at an insane distance, and non-cyrodiil mobs...I have to be behind them to sneak in melee range.

Non-guard mobs - I think it's fine, I don't need any more stealth'y goodness. Cyrodiil guards...it's crazy, like nothing matters.

PvP - I think it's fine too. If I get in melee range from the back, I can surprise people.

I do think the sneaking is overpowered for non-NB classes though. It's too close to NBs. But that I admit I am not speaking first hand on.

But to your point: no, you're wrong that NBs as you described can walk right past enemies. Now, I CAN spam some dark cloak and make it

Fair point. And I certainly agree that NPC Guards in Cyro have superman like sight, but it's probably needed too. As a player who mains as NB, I'm not against NB gaining some form of improved Sneaking over the other 3 Classes as long as it doesn't get out of hand, always gotta think about balance. We do get a speed improvement, though 25% is very minor. As for Sneaking up behind an enemy to get into melee range, tbh I think that's working as intended.

A player in 7pcs of Medium Armor will absolutely get closer (from behind) to any NPC than a player in Light or Heavy armor. Players are different because many play in 3rd person and can literally see behind themselves which defeats the purpose of Sneaking up from behind. That's more of a game design flaw than a Medium Armor passive flaw.

Nightshade or no Nightshade there IS a difference with it on. I can say this from personal experience when I literally snuck through every Craglorn Delve at VR6 to get all the Skyshards the day it launched. I was 7pcs Medium with the 3pc Nightshade + Wood Elf + Vampire + Concealed Weapon + Retreating Maneuvers + Shadowy Disguise just in case I grabbed aggro. I got all the Skyshards except the 1 in the room with all the Dwemer constructs, since it auto-pulls everything without dying once, and only pulling aggro 2 or 3 times.

Thanks for giving some good examples. But my main issue is with PVP. I have no isse with sneak mechanocs in PVE. And since the game is built around the PVP endgame thats where i see things should be mostly aimed for. Thebig thing for me would be making medium armor let you see enemy sneaking players much better that were not wearing medium armor them selves. And like i said in my post NOT uncover them, just see them at more of distance that you can now without them knowing. i want to be able to go in for a sneak attack

ferzalrwb17_ESO · July 2014

The stealth detection radius is reduced but, yes, you do not "bust" someone else out of stealth without them seeing you. Something is broken there. If one person is busted both are busted (without pots or magelight) - that's how it appears to work.

I run in a duo. I run medium, he runs light. He is actually able to detect that someone is near before me because the graphical eye starts to open well before mine registers anything. That's our cue for me to hit a detect pot. If the person we're detecting is a medium armour user, like me, they're actually disadvantaged by wearing medium because their hidden status wouldn't have alerted them to the fact that someone was near.

The light player gets a "heads up - someone is near" where the medium gets nothing. But they both get broken out of stealth at the same time. That's a disadvantage to medium in stealth in that situation.

So as a medium armour user I need a non medium armour user with me to know when we're close and to pot. Tell me that's not broken.

Sharee · July 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

A player in 7pcs of Medium Armor will absolutely get closer (from behind) to any NPC than a player in Light or Heavy armor.

From my experience, when sneaking up to a mob from behind, i can get into melee range and land a sneak attack regardless of what armor i am using(i have all three armor skills at 50).

There is a difference when trying to get closer than what is needed for a sneak melee attack - in that case, light or heavy will get you detected. But that doesn't matter much, since you don't need to get that close.