How about implementing friendly fire at about 1% of out going damage, that's split 'em up.

Kirsika wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

But when facing overwhelming numbers you are supposed to lose.

Ahem.

I didn't say you always lose. I said you should lose, in the battle of Fei the smaller force should of lost. The fact that they won is the reason this battle is notable. Nobody would even know about today otherwise.

The same things occurs in the game. I've fought and won against larger forces numerous times. I also got steamrolled by larger groups on numerous occasions. I've also lost to smaller groups. I've been mowed down by the EP impulse "bot train" and I've wiped the train with smaller numbers. This happens every day even with AOE caps.

The problem is some folks want to run around winning 5 on 75 like they used to with OP/broken builds thinking they have mad skills and they can't. Go back a couple months in these forums and look for all the threads on DK's having unlimited AOE on standard and talons. We had unlimited AOE's already and PvP was completely broken with it. I have no idea why anybody would think that going back to that will work.

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Target player -> AOE will work -> but only if in range with it

Make it go like that so it work for single type damage types as well, could be fun in pvp.

Only free target would be siege weapons naturally and heals.

I don't know what you are talking about really. could you clarify? If you are saying making the zerg hit tab and put their cross hairs inside the box is going to magically fix everything then I would like to know how you came to that conclusion?

Makes sense for counter zergs to spread out as the targetted one which the AOE will implode/explode around could have all his friends running in 4 different directions cordinated.

Further more insert a target of target thing to the game working on enemy players as well, could have a scout pointing out who they are mainly going after and by that create a fox hunt.

Also all armor you would need to have at least 5 pieces of that type of armor equipped to be able to use its special skill.

Buff Heavy & Medium armor in a degree it would competete with light armor on equal base but in each their way for diversity.

So make AOEs explode from your target instead of yourself?

Wouldn't change anything if there is still an AOE Cap...

As for your idea with the armor abilities, like immovable, it may have to come to that.

Krinaman wrote: »

If I am understanding the complaint here:

- A large group of players attacks a small group of players and the large group wins.
- Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group

Does that about sum it up? Because it seems to me that the large group should win.

yes clearly you arn't understanding the compplaint then

Morticielle wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

ZERO official response on the issue from zos shows that we can not expect a fix anytime soon as more and more zergs start using this strategy.

If you declare something an 'issue' doesn't mean that it is actually an issue. And why do you think that you are entitled to a justification by Zenimax?

Your disability to move out of the way of such a group might be an issue. How about you work on that. First lesson: Be aware of your surroundings. This means instead of only looking straight ahead you have to turn your view and look to the left, to the right and behind you. This gives you a good chance to see an incoming group before they can stunlock and bomb you to death. It works really good for me. And please, take your blinders off, they look good on horses but not on you. Next lesson tomorrow.

Taonnor wrote: »

With unlimited targets you can kill impulse spam groups.

With unlimited targets impulse spam groups can kill you even faster.

What about the lag and general game play..

Krinaman wrote: »

Then feel free to explain it then. Because post after post is complaining about a large group aka "zerg ball" and how a small group should be able to kill them.

Are you even reading those replies?
I'll try one last time to reach out to you: It is NOT about killing them, it isn't even about wining.

It is about preventing a mechanical invulnerability and the optimum strategy that results from it.

Krinaman wrote: »

You just gave a long example that basically was "Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group"

Considering capping anything requires standing on a choke point, no AOE caps will simply result in it being impossible to take any defended location.

People should not be trying to cap while under fire anyway. There are ways to counter it. Resources can be attacked from multiple sides. If they are aoeing the flag, push through the flag, kill them and then cap. Its pretty simple. Forts have multiple walls, you can simply take 2 walls and have multiple entry points. Or you could throw siege shields and negate magics in the breach and rush through. It is pretty doable. If a group of people cannot kill a small group and then cap, they probably have no business capping something to begin with.

(do not get me started on forward camps being able to be used to port into places that are under siege)

Trayyacakes wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Target player -> AOE will work -> but only if in range with it

Make it go like that so it work for single type damage types as well, could be fun in pvp.

Only free target would be siege weapons naturally and heals.

I don't know what you are talking about really. could you clarify? If you are saying making the zerg hit tab and put their cross hairs inside the box is going to magically fix everything then I would like to know how you came to that conclusion?

Makes sense for counter zergs to spread out as the targetted one which the AOE will implode/explode around could have all his friends running in 4 different directions cordinated.

Further more insert a target of target thing to the game working on enemy players as well, could have a scout pointing out who they are mainly going after and by that create a fox hunt.

Also all armor you would need to have at least 5 pieces of that type of armor equipped to be able to use its special skill.

Buff Heavy & Medium armor in a degree it would competete with light armor on equal base but in each their way for diversity.

So make AOEs explode from your target instead of yourself?

Wouldn't change anything if there is still an AOE Cap...

As for your idea with the armor abilities, like immovable, it may have to come to that.

Add rapid maneuver as well for the group effect only being speed

Lava_Croft wrote: »

As explained over and over again, the poll about AoE caps was completely meaningless due to something they call 'selection bias'.

'We' as a community did not vote against AoE caps, since most people that bothered to participate in the poll are people who want the AoE caps gone, making the poll next to worthless.

Basically it's the same as this thread. The only people that really bother with threads like this are people who want the AoE caps gone.

Taonnor wrote: »

With unlimited targets you can kill impulse spam groups.

You can already kill Impulse spamming groups just fine. The problem isn't really the group spamming the AoE's, it's the people that time and time again get facerolled by these groups and instead of altering their tactics, they head to the forums and demand changes.

As a Nightblade, I have nothing to stop or even slow down a Impulse Zergball when they just keep Immovable up 100% of the time.

Your argument is invalid, as only one class can stop a Zergball, and that are Sorcs with an Ultimate (Negate).

yes i,m from scotland

indytims_ESO wrote: »

Zergs have been alive and kicking in every PVP game I've played, long before "AE Caps" existed.

Removing AE caps is not going to stop zergs. There is 'safety in numbers'.

zergs and zerg balling are diffrent entirely. zergs can be spread over a vast area , all round a fort for example. but zerg balling (or blobbing as it was called in GW2) is stacking virtually on top of each other. and its only ever a good idea if AOE caps and lack of effective splash damage from range make focus firing it to bits mechanically immpossible

With the upcoming Spell Crafting update it is more important ever to have AoE caps. If you watched the Quakecon video you would see that you add an AoE effect or increase the duration of most (if not all) spells.
A DK with the enduring effect on his Talons, Standard and Unstoppable would destroy raids and he could constantly heal himself with Inhale..

Krinaman wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

However, what we do know for sure is that AoE caps are bad. Both historic data, the current ESO situation and game theory bring us to this conclusion.
Luckily, this is something we can remedy.

No, we don't know this for sure. It's surely your opinion and you are entitled to it but it's certainly not a fact.

And that's where you're wrong, or perhaps you simply misunderstand the concepts.
Historically, games with a cap have had their players develop blobbing tactics.
Shadowbane, GW2 and even ESo the second we learned about the caps. This isn't opinion, it is an observation, a fact.

Numbers are already an organic advantage, and zerging is a valid tactic. But blobbing adds mechanical advantages closing to binary invulnerability.
I'm not gonna show the calculations in details, but the more people stack, the less damage individual players take. Issue made worse in eso due to smart heals.
This is a fact as well.

Such an advantage is called a dominant strategy in game/decision theory.
http://www.gametheory.net/dictionary/DominantStrategy.html
Game theory is a branch of math that apllies to video games but also serves in social sciences and economics. They are trying to rebrand it to decision theory to avoid the ambiguity.
Anyway, in video games, a dominant strategy is destructive to the gamespace.
In short, it suffocates any other possible strategies reducing the game to only that one strategy . No matter the breadth of possibilities in the game, if other tactics are not viable, then they are added complexity and not depth.
Games thrive on depth, viable choices and interesting decision making.
And these are facts as well. Or perhaps more like rules?

Hence, the conclusion: AoE caps are bad design.

Krinaman wrote: »

I've played games with and without caps. Anytime there wasn't caps the AOE class was completely OP and owned the field with nothing but a steady stream of complaints on the forum.

And this is an entirely different problem.
In my previous post, I said you had valid concerns: AoEs need to be balanced.
It is a matter of game balance rather than game mechanics.

An AoE ability can be just as unbalanced with a target cap. Balance is determined by comparison to other abilities, and this is one process that needs to happen anyway.

I don't know if you've ever programmed, but the AoE caps are like a syntax errors at the start of a file. You get only one error output, and when you fix it, it then goes on further and can reveal 20 other warnings. They've been there all along, and you need to fix them too.

So yes, the forums would be more verbose on many individual issues, but each one would be a step to further improve the game.

And as I've tried to be as constructive as I could in this entire discusion, I've compiled a thread of possible fixes in anticipation of the removal of aoe caps.
If you haven't before, I'd like you to check the link in my signature and perhaps shoot down or up some of the ideas.
Maybe lay out some abilities you consider OP and see in which category you think they could fit?

Krinaman wrote: »

Just sit at the goal and reign terror on the other side because the goal is always a choke point. Good luck getting a scroll through a gate. What are you going to do? Have an endless attrition war when both sides can simply respawn and be back in the fight in 5 seconds?

This is a non-issue.
These difficulties are already present now for all the groups that aren't the largest.
But on the other hand, the groups that are the largest and used to do blobing would not go through these situations unscathered.
They will win, but not at near 0 casualties.

Also, there are defensive tools in game now that serve for these exact situations. As they would also benefit from being uncapped, they should balance out the uncapped damage tools.
And if they don't, as said previously, it's a balance issue that needs to be addressed.

Poxheart wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

No, we don't know this for sure. It's surely your opinion and you are entitled to it but it's certainly not a fact.

Based on what happened earlier tonight at the Rayles lumber mill on Wabbajack NA, I'd say it's an informed opinion that is very near to being a fact. EP had a zergball sitting on the flag that couldn't be touched by equal or more numbers. It was incredibly stupid and I can only hope that somebody recorded it to show just how bad it was (I couldn't get restoration light or heavy attacks to even fire).

"Gameplay" like that is not something that anybody should defend.

The EP sat there because the server was completely lagged out and you couldn't damage anything.

Krinaman wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

And that's where you're wrong, or perhaps you simply misunderstand the concepts.
Historically, games with a cap have had their players develop blobbing tactics.
Shadowbane, GW2 and even ESo the second we learned about the caps. This isn't opinion, it is an observation, a fact.

Except that isn't true. Historically SOME games with caps resulted in blobbing tactics. Most of them did not (although the complaints of zerging occurred on all including no cap games). This leads one to the conclusion that some other factor is resulting in this outcome. I suspect that it's the mechanics of the game. This game requires you to be in a confined area to get heals, buffs, debuffs, etc. Splitting people up with the current system renders the concepts of groups pretty much pointless.

This would suggest that at least part of the "fix" (still not exactly sure why people getting organized and grouping up is considered broken in a MMO) is to change how healing/grouping works. For example heals only effect members in your party but over a much larger radius, same for buffs and debuffs. This would allow players to spread out and doesn't encourage blobbing. Of course, the 50 man group is still going to run over a 5 man group so it won't stop the complaints.

You realize you can add like 24 people to your group right? Also that virtually everyone of them is running a Healing Staff as well... Your suggestion doesn't do anything to fix the problem, Its just an example of someone who doesn't have a clue about the problem in the first place.

Think I already mentioned this in one of the other threads.

But anyway... remove the cap and you will see 7 people optimized for it wiping out 80 people rallying up for a big battle eg. using spies to tell the location or just being at the spot at the right time.

Yes I can see how AOE caps removed would help.. not lol... put the focus onto things that make it viable and find solutions for downing skills PvP wise instead.

And yes some of you people know it is possible, for self would certainly not mind to wipe out that amount of players lol especially taking them all by surprice

Think it is time to be constructive instead instead of volounterely creating OP solutions.