cracker81 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

cracker81 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

cracker81 wrote: »

cracker81 wrote: »

Then it is not dk you should want to Nerf but fix armor.

No, you misunderstood. It`s the lack of counters in combination with great sustain given to the class, not the setup. Ever played GW2 for example?

Imagine a 25-30-0-0-15 backstab thief vs a point def guard (basically most glassy class & build vs most tanky class & build). Both are given tools to either finish the fight quickly or stall forever, depending on how well they used their tools. The guard had to time his dodges/blocks (which lasted just 2-3 seconds and had CD) to directly counter the deadly spikes of the thief. If he messed up hitting the right timing window, he`d likely lose.

A DK on the other hand will just RMB all the way, no stress, just press either scales or blood when you feel bored or pressured and it`s hopeless to quickly end it for any opponent, no matter how glassy he`s build, until the minute long ressource war is decided. That`s a bit too easy for my taste.

Best regards

well I am a tank in pve and pvp in heavy/ light. Seems right to me. I don't put much dmg out and expect to live longer than a dps spec.

Of course, but I would like to make you work and think a bit harder for being as tanky as you are

Give me your class and I can name a lot that needs Nerf. To easy to find something. The real reason why is becuz you got destroy by a dk. Here roll a dk and you will still get destroyed by whoever killed you. I been in groups that ppl should or need to read more about their class. That goes for pve and pvp. It is sad when a tank is out dpsing a dps, was only using taunt and regular attack. Then you have ppl that say they can heal but you never receive a heal in a dungeon. I am sure most of the forums are filled with this type of players asking for nerfs. What am I saying L2P quit qq about how bad you are.

What is your class? What wpns do you use? Skill line? Armor type? Level?

I just don`t think DKs deserve to be as tanky as they are for holding down the right mouse button with occasionally throwing in a scales or GDB. I even gave an example using a glasscannon vs bunker build in GW2 for what I consider being tanky with skill while giving the glasscannon the chance to burst if applied correctly.

That is not the case in this game before the last bit of ressources for the DK are gone, which will take minutes. Not because of intelligent and quick use of the keyboard but because of inherent class abilities and their synergies with 1h/s.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Uhm, that templar was using a duel build. Maybe not one you see commonly but he clearly set up both bars to duel with. Sustain/range bar and burst/cc bar (all single target and one ground based ae to cover his resto heavies vs invastion/taloning), do you do any duels at all or are you just trying to win a debate?

If you want to prove a point, you might want to compare DK to a class that isn`t known by players who are actually good at the game as being en par, if not stronger than DK in PvP.

Can`t believe there are people handing out insightfuls for that weak text of yours, while the really insightful advice by Xsorus i.e. two posts after yours got largely ignored.

I don`t think you`ve ever been into dueling or smallscale at all. AD Auriels EU here by the way, tell me about your raid of elite players. K.o.C.? Come on... All you guys do is zerging it up each day, every day. Never running less than 24. Shido tagged it up on the zergboard, yippie ya yay. Attendance? A+... Skill? Hum...

I actually think you made a lot of valid points, but your argumentation on other points is just as weak as you`re trying to make your discussion partner look like.

Best regards

I think I've specified many times that my focus is large-scale PvP. As a result my duelling experience is very limited and I'd call myself a pretty terrible dueller. I've also specified I play a Sorc and a DK while I only had a Templar in beta, but the bar of the Templar there with heals/range in one bar and burst DPS in the other is very similar to what I had in beta when running solo. If that's not normal set up for modern day Temps, than my bad I retract.

I genuinely cannot understand your second paragraph. Not intended as an insult this, please rephrase and I'll happily respond.

I've been small-scaling the first 2 months. My experience has perhaps been contrary to yours but I've seen some very very good Templars and NBs in my time who did put me down when I didn't play it right and vice versa of course. Maybe I'm just a bad small scale person who was underutilising his DK, who knows. I see in videos what other people do with their classes and I find that pretty strong evidence of class ability, not sure why you'd dismiss it.

K.o.C. are not the only large group running on that server. There are plenty, but K.o.C are perhaps one of most effective if not the most effective. I don't see why you feel you need to insult the teams skill level. Who do you run with anyway, or will you just make jabs from the shadows of anonymity? We have put a very good amount of theorycrafting behind making a highly efficient zerg. Which is the reason we won the last campaign.

My argument was that whatever class of an emperor, he cannot take a group of 20 people and kill 12 as Smee is saying. That is just bad play and not an indication of class balance. An organised group of 20 steamrolls everything that isn't at least as organised and at least as big.

I like to use reflective light on sorcs.

First, they BE if they are losing the fight which could mean you took their hp down quite a bit dor ~4 reflective light hits should bring him down. Even if they use the one that leaves a decoy reflective can hit three targets so they'll still get hit.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Uhm, that templar was using a duel build. Maybe not one you see commonly but he clearly set up both bars to duel with. Sustain/range bar and burst/cc bar (all single target and one ground based ae to cover his resto heavies vs invastion/taloning), do you do any duels at all or are you just trying to win a debate?

If you want to prove a point, you might want to compare DK to a class that isn`t known by players who are actually good at the game as being en par, if not stronger than DK in PvP.

Can`t believe there are people handing out insightfuls for that weak text of yours, while the really insightful advice by Xsorus i.e. two posts after yours got largely ignored.

I don`t think you`ve ever been into dueling or smallscale at all. AD Auriels EU here by the way, tell me about your raid of elite players. K.o.C.? Come on... All you guys do is zerging it up each day, every day. Never running less than 24. Shido tagged it up on the zergboard, yippie ya yay. Attendance? A+... Skill? Hum...

I actually think you made a lot of valid points, but your argumentation on other points is just as weak as you`re trying to make your discussion partner look like.

Best regards

I think I've specified many times that my focus is large-scale PvP. As a result my duelling experience is very limited and I'd call myself a pretty terrible dueller. I've also specified I play a Sorc and a DK while I only had a Templar in beta, but the bar of the Templar there with heals/range in one bar and burst DPS in the other is very similar to what I had in beta when running solo. If that's not normal set up for modern day Temps, than my bad I retract.

I genuinely cannot understand your second paragraph. Not intended as an insult this, please rephrase and I'll happily respond.

I've been small-scaling the first 2 months. My experience has perhaps been contrary to yours but I've seen some very very good Templars and NBs in my time who did put me down when I didn't play it right and vice versa of course. Maybe I'm just a bad small scale person who was underutilising his DK, who knows. I see in videos what other people do with their classes and I find that pretty strong evidence of class ability, not sure why you'd dismiss it.

K.o.C. are not the only large group running on that server. There are plenty, but *** are perhaps one of most effective if not the most effective. I don't see why you feel you need to insult the teams skill level. Who do you run with anyway, or will you just make jabs from the shadows of anonymity? We have put a very good amount of theorycrafting behind making a highly efficient zerg. My argument was that whatever class of an emperor, he cannot take a group of 20 people and kill 12 as Smee is saying. That is just bad play and not an indication of class balance. An organised group of 20 steamrolls everything that isn't at least as organised and at least as big.

Thanks for the reasonable reply.

First, the meaning of my second paragraph: templars are very potent in PvP. Unfortunately, most of the community hasn`t catched up to that yet and refuses to accept that, here on the forums and ingame as well. Basically, I just can`t say templars are "commonly known to be en par....", so I tried to find another wording which relfects reality a bit better. English is not my native language, sorry for the confusion.

Regarding the templar`s build in question who was winning the tournament. No, I haven`t met many templars who use 2h as a dueling setup. But that doesn`t change the fact that he geared his slots for the purpose of dueling, while taking the needs of dueling into account. He tried to have counters available for what he expected to face (i.e.: vrune vs invasion/taloning) while maintaining a certain versatility thanks to sustain (resto & drain essence mainly).

That`s in my opinion exactly what you do when thinking about a good setup for dueling. It appeared to me, that you tried to make it look as if he wouldve just jumped into the tourney using templar`s every day setup.

My intend was not to bash K.o.C., I`m actually pretty thankful that there is guilds like your`s on AD side AB EU. According to friends I team up with, K.o.C. is indeed the most effective large scale raid on our side atm. My opinion of zerging is just not very high in general and I don`t think it promotes players learning the In`s and Out`s of their class and improving their play.

When you belittled your discussion partner (I know, he was heated, too) while using shido`s position on the leaderboard and the raid as reference, in combination with giving questionable information/evidence regarding the templar vs DK issue, I felt the need to state my opinon on that information/evidence.

It`s all good, I never really had the intend to offend you, but to make clear that some issues are perceived differently and that your arguments (while being very well worded and often times correct) are maybe not entirely reflecting reality.

Contrary to you, my signature has my main characters name in it. I don`t hide. I run either solo or up to 6 man with players you probably know (because they`re active) but I don`t want to put their names on the forum. Basically the AD names from arena cross faction dueling & smallscale guild.

Best regards

STOP BALANCING CLASS ABILITYS AROUND THE OP DESTRUCTION STAFF.

When will we see nerfs to dragons blood? Hopefully never! When will we see buffs to stamina builds? Hopefully they shut down the servers RIGHT NOW and do it, because its that important.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

I suppose I was under the assuption that since we were discussing PvP, using a PvE example wouldnt really be relevant. Most DK's, Sorcs and NB, if built for PvE, can hit over 900 dps with little trouble.

Well the discussion has is pretty PvP centric, I'll admit but there's still no evidence of Sorcs doing higher single or multiple target DPS in PvP than NBs which was one of smee's points. I would genuinely like to see a video of a Sorc hitting over 900DPS sustained in PvE. I would happily stand corrected and say I'm wrong, but all I've managed despite my theory-crafting is around 700-800.

Jaxom wrote: »

I also didnt say I was doing less than 400 dps in 2s, I said we are lucky to hit more than 400 dps when it goes longer than 5s. I can hit 1000 DPS from stealth in 1-2s, it's when the initial burst doesnt work. Again, our problem is sustain in PvP. With everyone and their mothers stacking Impenetrable, I barely crit, if at all with 60% crit. You are comparing PvE numbers to PvP numbers and they are not the same. Soul Harvest does didly squat for damage if it doesnt crit and isnt used directly after an Ambush. I dont know how you are suggesting a NB can hit 500 DPS without crits in PvP. That is just ludicris.

I perhaps didn't explain it clear enough, but I meant from 2-3 secs onwards, i.e. after the initial burst dmg. In theory you absolutely can do more than 500dps with normal skills, but like I said in my edit the fact is everybody blocks, so the DPs that registers is a lot lower.

Jaxom wrote: »

I actually do not have any problems with Templars. They have worse sustain than NB's so once they blow their heals, they are screwed. Hold block while they charge you and you are fine. Smee's example has nothing to do with not being good at the class. I play the class pretty damn efficient and know it inside and out. Like I said, I can build to specifically kill DK's and have less trouble with it but I SHOULDNT have to. The Build would be terrible against the other 3 classes so it's simply not worth it. A DK can throw 2 skills on their bar and with little effort be very effective. The same cannot be said for anyone else.

Templars are becoming better and better, but the majority of them are geared for healing and thus there's a smaller pool of decent damage dealers to find. The fact that a Templar won a duelling tournament among very good players is an example of how good they can be and with a few buffs on sustain coming their way, they'll be awesome 1v1.

Look, DKs are a more survivable class because of the self heals. It was a class designed with tanking and melee DPS in mind. Thus, in confrontation with a DK and not specific set up a NB relies on the opening strike from stealth which usually costs the DK 25%-35% of his health and leave's him stunned (CC break costs half of stamina). You can beat him on pre-set duel or beat him by coming out of stealth. The possibilities are there. If I played solo NB I wouldn't run up to a DK, wave at him, then attack.

I gladly accept the DK is an easier class to learn to play but that is not a reason to nerf a skill that will affect end game builds and players of different levels and abilities.

Smee's example is flawed because like I said 1000 times a NB with 2 skills can soak up dmg better than the DK. A DK who sits there pumping GDB under his banner is just prolonging his death vs many people and in 1v1 should be left for a bit till his banner wears out. Similar to what you do to a NB in VoB. No difference there.

Fair enough points. You won't get an argument from me on that. I do applaud you for being civil with all this back and forth. I dont see it very often and it's nice to have a debate without flaming and name calling.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Jaxom wrote: »

Fair enough points. You won't get an argument from me on that. I do applaud you for being civil with all this back and forth. I dont see it very often and it's nice to have a debate without flaming and name calling.

Thanks, I'm genuinely not seeking a confrontation but a mature debate.

I apologise to Smee if I came across as overly aggressive, the point was not to belittle him/her into submission.

There is however a very big element of truth in the statement that there are people who just don't know their own class well enough and they use their experience of getting thumped by other players as a platform to complain about abilities of other classes and downplay the abilities of their own.

1. NBs are the worst class
2. The DKs ability to tank many people with Standard and GDB is OP when actually NBs can do the same thing, with similar level of skill.
3. That DKs are by far the best class 1v1. When in fact the evidence shows the classes are pretty close (Sorc suffers a bit) and combat result depends more on player skill and luck than their class.
4. That DK Vamp Emps can wipe full groups on their own. Which of course depends more on the quality of the opposition and Emp bonus than the class.
5. That Sorcs have higher DPS than NBs, which again is not really true in the majority of, if not all, settings.

... mark him/her out as a player who doesn't utilise the NB's full potential. As such I view those experiences, which are contrary to my own and my guild's, as bad examples to use in the context of class balance arguments.

In summary, I don't think GDB in particular is an OP skill. On the contrary it's a necessary skill for a class that was clearly designed, at least in part, with PvE tanking in mind.

For what it's worth, I do think my DK is the most powerful class for large-group settings, but that is primarily because of abilities on the Earthen Heart skill tree, which help to push a whole group's survivability and DPS through the roof and no other class has a similar tree full of group synergising abilities.

Note: Shout out goes to @xsorusb14_ESO‌, who has actually been posting very good information all along and has earned a good few "insightful"s from me

Enjoy your day people

Yeah, I suppose it's a matter of perspective.

I'll addres each of these points below.

1. NBs are the worst class
2. The DKs ability to tank many people with Standard and GDB is OP when actually NBs can do the same thing, with similar level of skill.
3. That DKs are by far the best class 1v1. When in fact the evidence shows the classes are pretty close (Sorc suffers a bit) and combat result depends more on player skill and luck than their class.
4. That DK Vamp Emps can wipe full groups on their own. Which of course depends more on the quality of the opposition and Emp bonus than the class.
5. That Sorcs have higher DPS than NBs, which again is not really true in the majority of, if not all, settings.

NB's are certainly not the worst class anymore. They have made changes but there still is work to be done, like fixing broken skills and passives.

I wouldnt necessariy say that Standard and GDB is OP. It's a very strong synnergy and NB's can do similar things, sans the healing. Veil of Blades is our defining skill and certainly is similar to Standard in a few ways.

I do agree on point 3. I do feel that DK's in general, are the best class for 1v1 due to the self healing, tankiness, and dps it can put out. I know that a Templar won a tourny for 1v1 but i feel that Templar was just a very good player. Like you said, DK's have a low skill level and high ceiling so in many cases, DK's are goign to win 1v1. NB's are the best at ganking though any class can gank from stealth, especially if your target is on a horse.

DK Vamps aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. I actually find Sorc Vamps much more difficult to deal with. BE with Clouding Swarm is a powerfull combination, similar to GDB and Standard.

The Sorc/NB debate for DPS is a draw in PvE in my opinion. They both and push out decent damage over time if specced for it. In PvP, I feel the Sorc has the edge if the fight goes over 5s. If the fight is short, the NB should win in the Sorc doesnt bolt away.

These have been my experiences at least.

couchkyle25_ESO wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

STOP BALANCING CLASS ABILITYS AROUND THE OP DESTRUCTION STAFF.

When will we see nerfs to dragons blood? Hopefully never! When will we see buffs to stamina builds? Hopefully they shut down the servers RIGHT NOW and do it, because its that important.

That first sentance, QFT. You all keep begging for Nerfs based on this Cloth and Staff system. Once they finally fix Cloth and Staff half these classes will be totally crippled from all of these freaking Nerfs.

Thing is, they won't ever bring stamina builds into balance with magicka, the QuakeCon panel proved that. The response to the question about balancing wasn't that they intended to make both options equal, but that they wanted similar numbers of players using them - that is a HUGE difference in intent and will always leave stamina builds as sub par.

They have no intention of bringing the cloth+stick users in line, all they will do is continue this misguided class-nerf approach based purely on PvP results.

maxilaub17_ESO wrote: »

Has anyone fought a good Templar? Spec'd right they heal themselves many times better than a DK while putting out good damage.

This.

Dragon blood is actually pretty mediocre with all the healing debuffs in the game as well as the built in dimishing returns that makes it only good at very low health.

Templars on the other hand can heal for 1000+ with breath of life at any given time or at any health percentage, and have blazing shield to back this defense up further with insane damage returns. Not to mention purifying light which gives another 30% healing bonus as well as HoT and dispels..

Templars also have probably two of the best abilities in the entire game with Blazing Shield and puncturing sweep, which both gives a combo of very high damage and very high protection/self defense.

Anyone calling nerfs on dragon blood in the current state of the game, and after how powerful especially Templars and Nightblades have become in PVP while DKs have been nerfed hard and with zero range, is either a troll or does not know much of the current PVP status in ESO at VR 12.

Obscure wrote: »

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

ArconSeptim wrote: »

Never, every class and race has it's unique and some similar skills and passives, templars also needs to be nerfed then as they spam those self heal spells all the time, nonono better nerf resto stuff...
People common...dk got nerfed alot

Funny you bring the healing class up when talking about healing. Dragon knights are not healers therefore shouldnt heal half their health at instant speed. As it is not dk are an amalgum of all desireable traits from the other classes with few or none of the drawbacks.

There are 4 classes... 4

One heals vastly better than the DK.

Two do not.

Why don't those two do so? They have alternative survival mechanics. Sorcerers are used to be unmatched in mobility. Night blades can simply become untargetable. In both instances they have the opportunity to reduce incoming direct damage to a zero value. The Dragonknight is designed not to. They have to stand there and take whatever comes at them just like the Templar. The difference is Dragonknights suck it up and spit it right back, it's called counters, and they have boat loads of them. It's all reactive to a condition. Templar does not have this feature, it just out heals and removes the effects of things coming at it, granted at a very steep cost in resources (unless light armor magicka specs are involved).

The Dragonknight is the soldier type class. The Nightblade is the special forces type class. The Sorcerer is the artillery type class. The Templar is the support type class. You mess with that dynamic when you remove the way these classes are designed to behave.

Continue to Nerf class skills, and all of the above will go away and what will remain is nothing but dress wearing stick wigglers as anything less will be rendered unpayably sub optimal...

Fixed.

Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »

ArconSeptim wrote: »

Never, every class and race has it's unique and some similar skills and passives, templars also needs to be nerfed then as they spam those self heal spells all the time, nonono better nerf resto stuff...
People common...dk got nerfed alot

Funny you bring the healing class up when talking about healing. Dragon knights are not healers therefore shouldnt heal half their health at instant speed.

You are wrong, dragon blood heals 1/3 of "missing health" and increase health re-gen which is still slow in combat and subject to soft/hard caps. The way the server-client lag works in cyrodiil no one can't wait to use it at 25% health because they are probably dead and the server hasn't reported it to the client yet, so it doesn't go off. Most use it around 50% meaning at 3k health 33% of 1500 (missing health) is about 500 health restored, if they spam it again missing 1000 health it will heal for 330 and the two use's sucked up closed to 1/2 a mana bar for 830 health (not even 1/3 of total health, no where close to your 1/2 health claim).

Just make all significant heals have a small cast time, so they can actually be interrupted and not be your usual "lol ur dps is useless" .-.