Quakecon Q&A about Stamina v. Magicka: 1.3 is it? Really?
Thejollygreenone
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Got this off of dulfy. http://dulfy.net/2014/07/18/eso-quakecon-the-future-of-eso-panel-notes/
It really seems like they're avoiding the issue here. Either that or ZoS sincerely thinks that with 1.3 stamina builds will be competitive with magicka builds.
Either way, come 1.3, I'm expecting a lot of people (including myself) to try out some stamina builds, and those same people ending up disappointed. Although, some judgement reserved until 1.3 actually hits and real testing can be done.
However, I still just can't seem to figure out why the issue of [stamina being used for non-hotbar defensive utilities putting an unbalanced strain on ones stamina resource pool] keeps getting ignored by those in charge. I just don't get it. ZoS seems to completely neglect this fundamental flaw in stamina dps builds.
The future of ESO looks pretty bleak to someone like me who loved stamina builds in previous TES games. Someone tell me there's something I'm missing here.
(Edited for specificity)
Edited by Thejollygreenone on July 21, 2014 6:50AM Plans for stamina builds to compare with magicka builds
Nick: Medium armor already have a stamina reduction. Some stamina weapon abilities will get damage boosted. Doing some balance between spell crit and weapon crit. For ultimates it will pick to see the higher of the weapon attack power or spell attack power.
It really seems like they're avoiding the issue here. Either that or ZoS sincerely thinks that with 1.3 stamina builds will be competitive with magicka builds.
Either way, come 1.3, I'm expecting a lot of people (including myself) to try out some stamina builds, and those same people ending up disappointed. Although, some judgement reserved until 1.3 actually hits and real testing can be done.
However, I still just can't seem to figure out why the issue of [stamina being used for non-hotbar defensive utilities putting an unbalanced strain on ones stamina resource pool] keeps getting ignored by those in charge. I just don't get it. ZoS seems to completely neglect this fundamental flaw in stamina dps builds.
The future of ESO looks pretty bleak to someone like me who loved stamina builds in previous TES games. Someone tell me there's something I'm missing here.
(Edited for specificity)
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Well they are making small changes so they don't accidently make Stamina builds OP and the new "FoTM". I imagine by 1.4 MAYBE 1.5 we should see a real balance finally.2
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Kego✭✭✭✭Besides. There is and will never be a pure Stamina Build in this Game.
There are to many great Utility Skills based on Magicka that are working great with Stamina Skills.
For myself as Nightblade, I can only see to use 2 Stamina Skills with DW and Bow. (3 on Bow during Sieges) Because there are to much great Class Skills that just can't be ignored for 5 Stamina DPS Skills.
There for, Zenimax is heading in the right direction.
1.2 buffed Medium Armor passives
1.3 buff to Melee DPS Softcap & Set changes
I hope we can see in 1.4 some DPS Increase in Stamina Skills, after that, it should be well balanced.
If I look at Nightblades for a Single Target Melee DPS Build:
1. Ambush (Gap Closer + Stun at Monster) - Class Skill Magicka
2. Surprise Attack (Good DMG + 40% Armor Pen.) - Class Skill Magicka
3. Blood Craze (Low Initial DMG + good DoT DMG + HoT) - Stamina DW Skill
4. Rapid Strike (Good DMG + 16% ATK Speed) - Stamina DW Skill
5. Free Slot
5th Skill is up for the most need. Leeching Strike for Regen-Effects, Impale for Execution Phase at bosses. Take what you need.
In my opinion the best Builds in Eso, should be Builds using both, Stamina and Magicka Skills.Edited by Kego on July 21, 2014 1:28PM2 -
UPrime✭✭✭✭Besides. There is and will never be a pure Stamina Build in this Game.
There are to many great Utility Skills based on Magicka that are working great with Stamina Skills.
I have to agree, and I think that is part of the problem. And Stamina will continue to be an accessory rather then the main resource maybe they add or change some existing class abilities to use stamina instead of magicka. Or maybe some that use both, or the higher of the 2.Edited by UPrime on July 21, 2014 1:23PM1 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Besides. There is and will never be a pure Stamina Build in this Game.
There are to many great Utility Skills based on Magicka that are working great with Stamina Skills.
I have to agree, and I think that is part of the problem. And Stamina will continue to be an accessory rather then the main resource maybe they add or change some existing class abilities to use stamina instead of magicka. Or maybe some that use both, or the higher of the 2.
I'm not sure I do agree with @Kego. When I talk about pure stamina builds, I didn't mean all 5 abilities are stamina based. I meant every DAMAGE ability used would have to be stamina based, therefore making it worth-while to gear for purely stamina/weapon damage since you dont have any damage abilities that scale off of anything else.
An pure stamina build to me is something like (For a NB with a 2h for example):
Stampede-Wrecking Blow-Executioner-Incapacitate-Piercing Mark-Flawless Dawnbreaker
As you see, magicka abilities are used, just ones that are useful to increase the efficiency of stamina abilities. I'd imagine this rule would be the same for magicka builds if magicka builds had any stamina buff type abilities that were worth using. (Actually, Evil Hunter from Fighters Guild gets a lot of use from magicka builds agains undead/daedric bosses)
Furthermore, the build mentioned by @Kego might work ok in pvp where you can kill a man before he recovers from his stealth stun with the right forethought. In fact, I use a similar build for PvP. But I can say first hand, put a build like that toe to toe with one of a pure magicka variety, without the advantage of a stealth stun and an unwitting opponent, mixed builds like @Kego's, and currently mine, inevitably fall short. Even more-so in the PvE environment of trials.
In my opinion, the best builds in Eso are pure magicka builds. They have been for awhile and will continue to be for awhile as far as I can tell. It'd be nice if a build could use a mix of both resources as you idealize, but right now the reality of that situation is that the damage abilities in such a build will do less damage and won't be able to compensate for it. I should know, I've been trying to make it work since the game came out. Maybe eventually they'll work on mixed builds like they said they're working on stamina builds, that'd be nice.
(sorry for the wall o' text)1 -
Kego✭✭✭✭But can't we break down that issue with Magicka vs Stamina on four points?
1. Concentration on Light Armor & Inner Light
Why the hell is Light Armor getting such a big passive DMG Boost for Magicka User?
Light Armor gets 42% Spell pen. and 10% Spell Crit Chance
Medium Armor gets 21% Phys. Crit Chance
Only this makes Magicka DMG so much bigger than Stamina DMG, but it didn't stops here. With Inner Light and its minor decrease of 5% Magicka brings in 20% Crit Chance for Magicka DMG.
There for, before we even compare the Skills of Stamina and Magicka Lines. The Passives already made the choises, what deals more DMG.
Magicka: 42% Spell pen. + 30% Spell Crit
Stamina: 21% Phys. Crit.
2. Base DMG of Skill Lines
AOE DMG on Stamina deals as good as always 50% less DMG than Magicka AOE but Magicka AOE does not only bring more DMG on the table, it also gets nice Buffs or CCs, that Stamina AOE suffers.
Singletarget DMG could need a rough buff around 20% to bring more DMG than a Magicka Skill, cause if I use Stamina, i sacrifice part of my defence.
3. Missing Spammable Skills
Dual Wield and S&B are the only Lines with an spammable Attack. Bows and 2H are missing that one completly, which makes these Skilline extremly bad on PVE DPS.
4. Cycle of Live - Resto Staff
This skill should have already changed cause it makes the current Magicka situation even worse. Change it to 10% DMG Bonus on light and heavy Attacks and not anyone would run with Resto Staff + Class Skills for max DPSing.4 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭But can't we break down that issue with Magicka vs Stamina on four points?
1. Concentration on Light Armor & Inner Light
Why the hell is Light Armor getting such a big passive DMG Boost for Magicka User?
Light Armor gets 42% Spell pen. and 10% Spell Crit Chance
Medium Armor gets 21% Phys. Crit Chance
Only this makes Magicka DMG so much bigger than Stamina DMG, but it didn't stops here. With Inner Light and its minor decrease of 5% Magicka brings in 20% Crit Chance for Magicka DMG.
There for, before we even compare the Skills of Stamina and Magicka Lines. The Passives already made the choises, what deals more DMG.
Magicka: 42% Spell pen. + 30% Spell Crit
Stamina: 21% Phys. Crit.
2. Base DMG of Skill Lines
AOE DMG on Stamina deals as good as always 50% less DMG than Magicka AOE but Magicka AOE does not only bring more DMG on the table, it also gets nice Buffs or CCs, that Stamina AOE suffers.
Singletarget DMG could need a rough buff around 20% to bring more DMG than a Magicka Skill, cause if I use Stamina, i sacrifice part of my defence.
3. Missing Spammable Skills
Dual Wield and S&B are the only Lines with an spammable Attack. Bows and 2H are missing that one completly, which makes these Skilline extremly bad on PVE DPS.
4. Cycle of Live - Resto Staff
This skill should have already changed cause it makes the current Magicka situation even worse. Change it to 10% DMG Bonus on light and heavy Attacks and not anyone would run with Resto Staff + Class Skills for max DPSing.
I'd tend to agree with you on most points here. But I'd like to point out some thoughts of mine:1.) This is a somewhat fair point. The 42% spell pen is a huge factor certainly, but also keep in mind there are many peripheral sources of armor pen that only apply to armor, such as the weapon glyph, night mothers 5 set, etc.
It may not make up for the 42% plus whatever other bonuses they get, but people don't seem to keep this in mind when bringing up this point.
2.) Also a fair point with base damage, but this is influenced by so many outside factors and contributes to such a small portion of the problem, I feel this could be addressed later rather than sooner.
That is, base damage of stamina abilities can be addressed through things like set bonuses, passives etc. first, then work on the actual base damage of individual abilities once the peripheral factors are settled.
3.) This I agree is sort of an issue, but not as much as it appears I believe. The spam ability for bow and 2h are there, they are just not yet tweaked to be spammable, snipe and uppercut. Given some more tweaking, these abilities would serve fine as spam abilities. Uppercuts already almost there.
4.) 100% agreed here, cycle of life is the doom of segregated roles in eso. But I'm a bit biased in that I believe someone wearing a resto staff or sword and shield of heavy armor should be sacrificing some damage capability to acquire such defenses. Not gaining damage capability.
So all in all, you bring up four valid points. However I think you're missing a big one, which was the point of this post. Stamina is used to sprint, dodge, block, and 'break free'.
This puts a massive strain on a stamina builds main resource pool in pvp, where they will be using these functions constantly. In pve (trials) it's none much better, but you can more narrow that list down to just sprinting with the occasional dodge or break free.
But even with the lessened burden in trials, it's still a noticeable burden. A burden that DOESN'T get compensated for. Until that get's addressed and fixed, stamina builds will always be second-rate. And I believe that's the most pressing issue stamina dps builds face.0 -
usura✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »However I think you're missing a big one, which was the point of this post. Stamina is used to sprint, dodge, block, and 'break free'.
This puts a massive strain on a stamina builds main resource pool in pvp, where they will be using these functions constantly. In pve (trials) it's none much better, but you can more narrow that list down to just sprinting with the occasional dodge or break free.
But even with the lessened burden in trials, it's still a noticeable burden. A burden that DOESN'T get compensated for. Until that get's addressed and fixed, stamina builds will always be second-rate. And I believe that's the most pressing issue stamina dps builds face.
This !
Personally i would love to see a new resource for it - at least for dodge and break free. I could live with sprint and block still using stamina.
Or maybe an update for med armor passive "Athletics", increasing the cost reduction per piece by 1% or even 2% and change it so its working for break free too.. . : usura - woodelf nightblade - aldmeri dominion : . .0 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »However I think you're missing a big one, which was the point of this post. Stamina is used to sprint, dodge, block, and 'break free'.
This puts a massive strain on a stamina builds main resource pool in pvp, where they will be using these functions constantly. In pve (trials) it's none much better, but you can more narrow that list down to just sprinting with the occasional dodge or break free.
But even with the lessened burden in trials, it's still a noticeable burden. A burden that DOESN'T get compensated for. Until that get's addressed and fixed, stamina builds will always be second-rate. And I believe that's the most pressing issue stamina dps builds face.
This !
Personally i would love to see a new resource for it - at least for dodge and break free. I could live with sprint and block still using stamina.
Or maybe an update for med armor passive "Athletics", increasing the cost reduction per piece by 1% or even 2% and change it so its working for break free too.
I had similar thoughts about athletics. I say add in sprint cost reduction and, with other compensations, we'd start seeing some balance. I was also in favor of adding break free cost reduction into this passive too, but they decided to give that to heavy armor instead. Which is fair I suppose, but it's kind of plunging heavy armor into the secondary stamina armor class.
Personally, I think ZoS is really missing a chance to add such compensation with the soft cap changes in 1.3. I think that changing the dynamic of soft caps to give stats having to do with the stamina resource pool more leeway. For example I would first off give max stamina and stamina regen a higher soft cap than magicka.
In an even more extreme example I would like to see stamina regen vs magicka regen take on a fast regening resource vs a slow regening resource. I hate to bring up WoW nowadays but if stamina acted more like a rogues energy bar while magicka acted more like a casters mana pool, I think it would add an interesting spin to balance and possibly give the compensation needed to this playstyle and resource pool.
And lastly, I'd like to bring up that I think the idea of a separate resource pool is a good bandaid fix if nothing else can get the job done, but I think that there are ways to get the job done without adding a separate resource pool, such as some of the things I've brought up in this post.0 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Thejollygreenone wrote: »But can't we break down that issue with Magicka vs Stamina on four points?
1. Concentration on Light Armor & Inner Light
Why the hell is Light Armor getting such a big passive DMG Boost for Magicka User?
Light Armor gets 42% Spell pen. and 10% Spell Crit Chance
Medium Armor gets 21% Phys. Crit Chance
Only this makes Magicka DMG so much bigger than Stamina DMG, but it didn't stops here. With Inner Light and its minor decrease of 5% Magicka brings in 20% Crit Chance for Magicka DMG.
There for, before we even compare the Skills of Stamina and Magicka Lines. The Passives already made the choises, what deals more DMG.
Magicka: 42% Spell pen. + 30% Spell Crit
Stamina: 21% Phys. Crit.
2. Base DMG of Skill Lines
AOE DMG on Stamina deals as good as always 50% less DMG than Magicka AOE but Magicka AOE does not only bring more DMG on the table, it also gets nice Buffs or CCs, that Stamina AOE suffers.
Singletarget DMG could need a rough buff around 20% to bring more DMG than a Magicka Skill, cause if I use Stamina, i sacrifice part of my defence.
3. Missing Spammable Skills
Dual Wield and S&B are the only Lines with an spammable Attack. Bows and 2H are missing that one completly, which makes these Skilline extremly bad on PVE DPS.
4. Cycle of Live - Resto Staff
This skill should have already changed cause it makes the current Magicka situation even worse. Change it to 10% DMG Bonus on light and heavy Attacks and not anyone would run with Resto Staff + Class Skills for max DPSing.
I'd tend to agree with you on most points here. But I'd like to point out some thoughts of mine:1.) This is a somewhat fair point. The 42% spell pen is a huge factor certainly, but also keep in mind there are many peripheral sources of armor pen that only apply to armor, such as the weapon glyph, night mothers 5 set, etc.
It may not make up for the 42% plus whatever other bonuses they get, but people don't seem to keep this in mind when bringing up this point.
2.) Also a fair point with base damage, but this is influenced by so many outside factors and contributes to such a small portion of the problem, I feel this could be addressed later rather than sooner.
That is, base damage of stamina abilities can be addressed through things like set bonuses, passives etc. first, then work on the actual base damage of individual abilities once the peripheral factors are settled.
3.) This I agree is sort of an issue, but not as much as it appears I believe. The spam ability for bow and 2h are there, they are just not yet tweaked to be spammable, snipe and uppercut. Given some more tweaking, these abilities would serve fine as spam abilities. Uppercuts already almost there.
4.) 100% agreed here, cycle of life is the doom of segregated roles in eso. But I'm a bit biased in that I believe someone wearing a resto staff or sword and shield of heavy armor should be sacrificing some damage capability to acquire such defenses. Not gaining damage capability.
So all in all, you bring up four valid points. However I think you're missing a big one, which was the point of this post. Stamina is used to sprint, dodge, block, and 'break free'.
This puts a massive strain on a stamina builds main resource pool in pvp, where they will be using these functions constantly. In pve (trials) it's none much better, but you can more narrow that list down to just sprinting with the occasional dodge or break free.
But even with the lessened burden in trials, it's still a noticeable burden. A burden that DOESN'T get compensated for. Until that get's addressed and fixed, stamina builds will always be second-rate. And I believe that's the most pressing issue stamina dps builds face.
So many awesome suggestions in this discussion for so many months.
The question is, even IF magicka was known in early dev stages to be at the forefront for all damage...who/why the HELL would they have additionally put the strain/useage on Stamina for dodge, interrupt,roll, sprint whatever??????
Its as if Stam was king at first and they decided to temper IT with spending stam points on the movement costs, but then somehow forgot to add in some like/minimally equal extra costs to magicka for compensation.
Did they have some key personnel change at that point in development and complete debriefing didn't occur? How difficult really would it be to add in some sort of 'cost' to magicka at this point ie assign all dodges, blocks, and/or interrupts at least to cost magicka instead of stam, leaving only sprint to cost stamina etc?????
Really, I feel like saying 'comeon now'. They know.
There must be some reason they are letting movement cost to stamina stand while making super tiny incremental changes elsewhere to stamina in armor etc.
Its not just a 'Golly gee, we just don't see where a stam build will never be an equitable DPS focus build as long as we continue to assign movement associated COSTS to it."
We players can theorize, proffer ideas and suggestions and discuss til our fingers fall off in these forums. They have not, and show no hint of even considering a removal of cost TO stamina related to the movement costs in addition to their other 'adjustments'.
Really.
Edited by Anastasia on July 23, 2014 9:04AM0 -
Morduil✭✭✭One relatively simple change that would help this imbalance would be to make sprinting on foot the same mechanic as sprinting on horseback - have it not deplete the main stamina bar, but instead a smaller one underneath. The mechanic is already in the game, so I don't suppose it would be wildly difficult to implement.
To take it further, I don't see why the same principle couldn't be used for blocking, breaking free and dodging. If the devs did that, it seems to me it would go a fair way to helping stamina as a resource compete with magicka, without unbalancing any other aspect of the game.6 -
Jaxom✭✭✭✭One relatively simple change that would help this imbalance would be to make sprinting on foot the same mechanic as sprinting on horseback - have it not deplete the main stamina bar, but instead a smaller one underneath. The mechanic is already in the game, so I don't suppose it would be wildly difficult to implement.
To take it further, I don't see why the same principle couldn't be used for blocking, breaking free and dodging. If the devs did that, it seems to me it would go a fair way to helping stamina as a resource compete with magicka, without unbalancing any other aspect of the game.
You sir or madam get an awesome. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno
This is a great idea. I'd write this one down.2 -
bertenburnyb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭easyest thing they could do
make CC break and dodge cost Stam AND Mag, the same amount for stam and mag, about half each of what it costs now stam wiseHaze Ramoran Dunmer Dragonknight Tank/Dps – Smoked-Da-Herb Saxheel Templar Tank/Healer
Red Diamond, Protect us 'til the end (EU EP Thorn)1 -
kthehammySoul ShrivenThejollygreenone wrote: »I hate to bring up WoW nowadays but if stamina acted more like a rogues energy bar while magicka acted more like a casters mana pool, I think it would add an interesting spin to balance and possibly give the compensation needed to this playstyle and resource pool.
And lastly, I'd like to bring up that I think the idea of a separate resource pool is a good bandaid fix if nothing else can get the job done, but I think that there are ways to get the job done without adding a separate resource pool, such as some of the things I've brought up in this post.
I would like to see something like this on the PTS. I think its a good idea
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Ninnghizhidda✭✭✭✭Hardly any words spoken about the absurd uselessness of Heavy Armour.
Hardly anything mentioned about how "fun" it is to use the "one and only" benefit of Heavy Armour (call me Immovable) without even having to use a freaking piece of Heavy Armour! So that the "Harry Potters" can merrily keep sporting their evening gowns while reaping the rewards of the one good skill Heavy provides and become tankier than "tanks" while laughing their bums off.
The fundamental flaws regarding the profound weakness of weapon lines and weapon usage will still be there, we are just scratching the surface of the problem.
Let's wait and see of course, but I have very modest expectations and carry a very small basket.0 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Ninnghizhidda wrote: »Hardly any words spoken about the absurd uselessness of Heavy Armour.
Hardly anything mentioned about how "fun" it is to use the "one and only" benefit of Heavy Armour (call me Immovable) without even having to use a freaking piece of Heavy Armour! So that the "Harry Potters" can merrily keep sporting their evening gowns while reaping the rewards of the one good skill Heavy provides and become tankier than "tanks" while laughing their bums off.
The fundamental flaws regarding the profound weakness of weapon lines and weapon usage will still be there, we are just scratching the surface of the problem.
Let's wait and see of course, but I have very modest expectations and carry a very small basket.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about heavy armor. I see heavy armor do some wonders in PvP believe it or not (depending on class of course) already, but changes are already in the works and have been stated by ZoS.
Firstly, heavy armor is getting the CC-break cost reduction. That's huge, I really wish I had that for medium armor, but heavy certainly needed some cost reduc love.
And whats more, it's been announced a few times that changes are in the works to give heavy armor increased resource regen (ultimate gen is all that's been stated so far) when taking damage.
While I'm not of the opinion that ult needs any better generation than is available, I think that this is going to go a long way for the juggernaut heavy armor dps build in PvP, which is where that sort build should would be at home (that and soloing of course).
Between all this and peripheral changes to stamina builds, heavy armor will have plenty of love to look forward to, I suspect. I think a discussion about what should be improved for stamina based builds (this thread) should include more general solutions rather than some any given skill tree.
For example my talk about having different soft caps, and the problems with stamina being used to sprint/dodge/block/cc-break. So all in all, yes, we should wait and see
I have high hopes for heavy armor dps, at least in niche situations like soloing, pvp, offtank/dps dual role, etc.
EDIT: Something I didn't touch on that is a major point in your post, which I apologize for not touching on, is that light armor tree is crazy tanky:My opinion on this is that the defensiveness of heavy armor certainly may need tweaking upwards a bit, but I think primarily light armor shouldn't get such monstrous levels of spell resistances as it currently has.
Yes there can be a passive that increases spell resistance for light armor, that makes sense. It can even be marginally higher than the spell resistance given from heavy armor, as that would also make sense. But someone in heavy armor should have vastly superior physical defenses and near equal spell resistances (or higher spell resistances if using spells/glyphs to increase, things that a dps wouldn't necessarily do).
With any luck, tweaks will be made to bring light armor down a peg or two defensively, and bring heavy armor to a point which makes it worth it to those whom the playstyle appeals to. But I still think it's more of a light armor being too defensive problem than heavy armor being too little defensive.Edited by Thejollygreenone on July 24, 2014 5:56AM0 -
ZeroTheCat✭✭Ninnghizhidda wrote: »....
Let's wait and see of course, but I have very modest expectations and carry a very small basket.
Agreed. Besides how much patience will people have before they give up on HarryPotter-Online entirely..? I recently returned after being away a several months to see if things had gotten better but the changes are so small if feels NOTHING has happened. Still people in dresses are best in ALL areas of this game and stamina builds are still not viable. I wonder why heavy or medium armor is even in the game... 1.3 has not changed this.
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