Elder Wars 2 Volume 2 (AoE Caps are a problem)

Morvul · July 2014

TheBucket wrote: »

Jesus Lowbei you are persistent with ignorance.

DAoC didnt have caps but they had a system and they didnt even add diminishing returns on the range of AoE till well after the first 8 months. I still remember the Camelot forums raging screams when it happen.

Removing AoE caps would be a huge mistake. We are talking only a handful of abilities that were missing them at launch. Not every AoE ability... Yet you are persistent on removing all AoE caps for every ability that allows them with no sense of diminishing return or anything.

Fear abilities
Weapon abilities
Snares
Roots
U ltimates

All because a handful of abilities were put on par with EVERY other ability on every class tree. Be rational amd help with conclusions or just get over it? At t hi is point your irrational thoughts are distracting to this thread.

On a whole different subject we have no idea what the synchronizingwith the lack of caps did to the server load or the string of code that was involved. It might of caused other issues like perhaps the crashing from the 100+ spamming heals to gain ultimate or etc.

whoa, the rage is strong here...
let's take this slowly, shall we?

1) @ Reference to DAoC:
as I explained a couple posts up: diminishing AoE damage with distance from AoE center is a very, very different System to "AoE can only hit X number of targets, no matter what".
The former rewards active movement and punishes tight stacking, the later does the reverse (and just to make sure: the later is what we have in ESO right now...)

2) @ Reference that only a handfull of AoEs used to be uncapped near the launch of ESO:
yes? what does that statement (of a fact) have to do with our statement that AoE caps ruin PvP? (also a fact in our opinion, and explained and reasoned in much detail in this threa;, though obviously you disagree)

3) @ Reference that lag would be horrible without AoE caps:
actually, when said handfull of abilites without a cap recieved a cap, Lag in cyrodiil increased quite significantly. Considering that said handful of uncapped abilites used to be (and still are, actually) quite popular abilites - we can conclude that when rougly 40-50% of the used AoE abilites were changed from uncapped to capped, Lag did in fact worsen - not improove as you would like to believe...

of course that might be coincidental - but the few things we do know still suggest that the opposite of your theory is true.

Morvul · July 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

The removal of caps still seems like it promotes zergballing even more than we see now in the game.
(*snip*)

so you honestly believe killing a group is more difficult when they can be damaged and crowdcontrolled all at once, and more easily killed while a large percentage of the group is immune to damage and crowdcontrol while the few folks taking damage are healed with ease?

seriously?

rich_nicholsonb16_ESO · July 2014

Reduce group size.

Keep healing within group and stop ult gain from them unless your healing damage. (Certain healing spells can heal outside group but always heals group members first)

Remove cap on selected spells/skills or up the cap to new group size.

Sorted

I have been saying this since beta the group size and healing outside of the group would cause problems and now this game has it and it's the same problem which gw2 had.

Now if another game came out soon without caps and had a good pvp system I'm sure most of the pvpers in this game would unsub and that would cause a huge knock on effect. Pvp has already been effected by a large number of ppl who have quit and the pve zones don't seem as busy and that was caused by wildstar (god knows why) and all the bugs like fps issues.

If zos wants this game to to well long term they need to sort something out. That capital city thing which is coming in I dont think will help unless your a zergballer. I was hoping for something like darkness falls in Daoc but seems to me it will be a zergball paradise.

Shaun98ca2 · July 2014

Morvul wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

The removal of caps still seems like it promotes zergballing even more than we see now in the game.
(*snip*)

so you honestly believe killing a group is more difficult when they can be damaged and crowdcontrolled all at once, and more easily killed while a large percentage of the group is immune to damage and crowdcontrol while the few folks taking damage are healed with ease?

seriously?

Very seriously.... CC effects are EASILY brushed off with CC break. We have AE abilities that reduce the damage you take. We have AE abilities that heal.

There is also the ability to see "stealthed" characters via potion(could be wrong about this but overly certain I have heard of potions that allow this).

If your in a zergball yes you are guaranteed to get hit....well not really depends on how loosely you stay together bunched up and how accurate the caster of the AE is on the group.

So while your in the group your guaranteed to get heal just as well as getting hit. Theres also damage wards that are group based so now your guaranteed protection from damage.

The bigger zerg will have more mana for casting available than your small group. IF you run out of mana attempting to take them out failing your screwed.

You better hope and pray you get the drop on them and take them all out quick and fast.

With caps in place healing is limited to 6 people. Zergs have been wiped by smaller groups. 6 people spamming AE on a zerg is bound to have more than 6 different people all get hit an take damage with a possibility of killing some.

We have seen smart healing in place and it DOES NOT work. You could be near death and still not get the heal as somebody else arbitrarily gets the heal cause their overall HP number was less than yours but you have a lower %.

Gawd only knows how AE damage targeting works which is probably why it works so well on zergs currently still capable of taking them out versus healing.

Lava_Croft · July 2014

The poll was useless because of one simple thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · July 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Very seriously....

Your explanation on why smart healing isn't working is actually why it is. It is exactly the opposite of arbitrarily.
It is more valuable to heal the character with the least absolute hp rather than the one withe least percentage because damage comes as absolute numbers.
5%hp of a tank could be 200 while 10% of hp of a dps could be 100hp. A hit doing 150dmg would kill the dps, not the tank.
Preventing death is an healer's priority.

On the note of "you better hope to get the jump", I think you still don't get the concept. It is NOT about winning, but having a distinct possibility of damaging the larger group.
With AE caps and zerg balling, the random distribution of damage means you either kill everyone at once, or you kill no one. It is black or white.
Without aoe cap, against a larger force, a smaller group will most certainly lose, but it will be able to thin out the herd.

Yes, in the case of a choke point or an ambush, there is the small possibility to wipe an un prepared zerg before they can react, but that's only an happy side effect of making sure that large numbers don't become mechanically invulnerable.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The poll was useless because of one simple thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

I suppose I went so much in wall of text mode that no one read it.

But in short: This discussion about polling is irrelevant and distracting to the main argument. At this point you're wasting time with technicalities.

Polls do NOT matter. Whether they are conducted scientifically or are biased.
Why?
Because popularity doesn't preclude an idea from being wrong.

An overall arbitrary target cap is a bad idea. It was proven to be historically and theorically.
And it is certainly not a necessary nor a lesser evil.

Krinaman · July 2014

The funniest part about this whole discussion is that there were skills without caps when the game first came out along with countless threads complaining about them. Even more comical is that there were countless threads complaining about all the zerging going on so clearly the capless AOEs didn't stop it from occurring.

Frankly, I think most of the problem is that some folks really want 5 vs 5 pvp and are playing a game with 200 vs 200 vs 200 pvp.

Morvul · July 2014

Krinaman wrote: »

The funniest part about this whole discussion is that there were skills without caps when the game first came out along with countless threads complaining about them. Even more comical is that there were countless threads complaining about all the zerging going on so clearly the capless AOEs didn't stop it from occurring.

all true...
However, there were also "countless" threads about zergers whining / self-styled elitist PvPers boasting how 5 mans wiped the floor with 75+ Zergers by luring them into choke points.

THAT is no longer happening.
Due to AoE caps, chokepoints are useless...

Krinaman · July 2014

Yes, I have no doubt 5 DK vamps wiped the floor of 75+ "zergers"

The fact that THAT is no longer happening is a plus.

TheBucket · July 2014

Morvul wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

Jesus Lowbei you are persistent with ignorance.

DAoC didnt have caps but they had a system and they didnt even add diminishing returns on the range of AoE till well after the first 8 months. I still remember the Camelot forums raging screams when it happen.

Removing AoE caps would be a huge mistake. We are talking only a handful of abilities that were missing them at launch. Not every AoE ability... Yet you are persistent on removing all AoE caps for every ability that allows them with no sense of diminishing return or anything.

Fear abilities
Weapon abilities
Snares
Roots
U ltimates

All because a handful of abilities were put on par with EVERY other ability on every class tree. Be rational amd help with conclusions or just get over it? At t hi is point your irrational thoughts are distracting to this thread.

On a whole different subject we have no idea what the synchronizingwith the lack of caps did to the server load or the string of code that was involved. It might of caused other issues like perhaps the crashing from the 100+ spamming heals to gain ultimate or etc.

whoa, the rage is strong here...
let's take this slowly, shall we?

1) @ Reference to DAoC:
as I explained a couple posts up: diminishing AoE damage with distance from AoE center is a very, very different System to "AoE can only hit X number of targets, no matter what".
The former rewards active movement and punishes tight stacking, the later does the reverse (and just to make sure: the later is what we have in ESO right now...)

2) @ Reference that only a handfull of AoEs used to be uncapped near the launch of ESO:
yes? what does that statement (of a fact) have to do with our statement that AoE caps ruin PvP? (also a fact in our opinion, and explained and reasoned in much detail in this threa;, though obviously you disagree)

3) @ Reference that lag would be horrible without AoE caps:
actually, when said handfull of abilites without a cap recieved a cap, Lag in cyrodiil increased quite significantly. Considering that said handful of uncapped abilites used to be (and still are, actually) quite popular abilites - we can conclude that when rougly 40-50% of the used AoE abilites were changed from uncapped to capped, Lag did in fact worsen - not improove as you would like to believe...

of course that might be coincidental - but the few things we do know still suggest that the opposite of your theory is true.

40-50%? It was only a handful that were changed lol.

As for 1 and 2... i said the same thing 2 pages back and do not disagree. I was simply referencing that they had a system and didn't just remove caps all together.

DAoC did have diminishing returns for the other poster who said they didn't and then gave a definition to diminishing returns lol.

Lowbei · July 2014

Krinaman wrote: »

Yes, I have no doubt 5 DK vamps wiped the floor of 75+ "zergers"

The fact that THAT is no longer happening is a plus.

my group of 6 wiped 75+ zergs, without a vamp in group.

using vamps in your argument is fail.

Agrippa_Invisus · July 2014

Lowbei wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

Yes, I have no doubt 5 DK vamps wiped the floor of 75+ "zergers"

The fact that THAT is no longer happening is a plus.

my group of 6 wiped 75+ zergs, without a vamp in group.

using vamps in your argument is fail.

Aside from lack of AE cap, there was a lot of other issues with vamps --

Ridiculously cheap ulti costs, multiple copies of batswarm running at once, synergizing with DK talons which had an 8 meter radius at the time and no CC immunity after rollout.

On and on and on.

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

You don't need no stinkin' choke point to wipe 75 people now.

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

Lowbei wrote: »

my group of 6 wiped 75+ zergs, without a vamp in group.

using vamps in your argument is fail.

Post a video! Do make sure it's within the last month or so. Wouldn't be terribly impressive to show low levels getting killed now would it! Maybe ... this will show people it can really happen!

Shaun98ca2 · July 2014

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Very seriously....

Your explanation on why smart healing isn't working is actually why it is. It is exactly the opposite of arbitrarily.
It is more valuable to heal the character with the least absolute hp rather than the one withe least percentage because damage comes as absolute numbers.
5%hp of a tank could be 200 while 10% of hp of a dps could be 100hp. A hit doing 150dmg would kill the dps, not the tank.
Preventing death is an healer's priority.

On the note of "you better hope to get the jump", I think you still don't get the concept. It is NOT about winning, but having a distinct possibility of damaging the larger group.
With AE caps and zerg balling, the random distribution of damage means you either kill everyone at once, or you kill no one. It is black or white.
Without aoe cap, against a larger force, a smaller group will most certainly lose, but it will be able to thin out the herd.

Yes, in the case of a choke point or an ambush, there is the small possibility to wipe an un prepared zerg before they can react, but that's only an happy side effect of making sure that large numbers don't become mechanically invulnerable.

So then I guess I don't understand how 6 people are currently taking out groups of 75+ already currently.

You say caps would be better because you can hurt the whole group, I say sure you can hurt the whole group but wiping it just wouldn't happen with all their tools available.

You can defeat the groups now, changing the mechanics seems to me you wouldn't be able to do so any more simply because they are more capable of healing the entire group along with warding damage.

Xsorus · July 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Very seriously....

Your explanation on why smart healing isn't working is actually why it is. It is exactly the opposite of arbitrarily.
It is more valuable to heal the character with the least absolute hp rather than the one withe least percentage because damage comes as absolute numbers.
5%hp of a tank could be 200 while 10% of hp of a dps could be 100hp. A hit doing 150dmg would kill the dps, not the tank.
Preventing death is an healer's priority.

On the note of "you better hope to get the jump", I think you still don't get the concept. It is NOT about winning, but having a distinct possibility of damaging the larger group.
With AE caps and zerg balling, the random distribution of damage means you either kill everyone at once, or you kill no one. It is black or white.
Without aoe cap, against a larger force, a smaller group will most certainly lose, but it will be able to thin out the herd.

Yes, in the case of a choke point or an ambush, there is the small possibility to wipe an un prepared zerg before they can react, but that's only an happy side effect of making sure that large numbers don't become mechanically invulnerable.

So then I guess I don't understand how 6 people are currently taking out groups of 75+ already currently.

You say caps would be better because you can hurt the whole group, I say sure you can hurt the whole group but wiping it just wouldn't happen with all their tools available.

You can defeat the groups now, changing the mechanics seems to me you wouldn't be able to do so any more simply because they are more capable of healing the entire group along with warding damage.

They aren't..

You're not taking out 75 people with 6 people.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · July 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

So then I guess I don't understand how 6 people are currently taking out groups of 75+ already currently.

75+ spread out, sure.
If your enemy offers you less than 6 targets at a time, then the fight behaves very similary to no AoE cap in that situation.
But 75+ zerg balling? Highly unlikely. They'd need to be afk.

A group of 75+ zerg balling don't even need healers to take down 6 guys.
if you are in range of one of the zerg ballers, you're in range of all of them, so they can all hit you back.
It would take only 10-12 of the 75+ to manage one attack to wipe the 6.
While the 6 would statistically need to attack 2 times to hit once each of the zerglings. So it would take them around 20 attacks each to wipe out the 75+.

The best case scenario with all random damage landing on the same guys each time, they'd still need to attack 2 times to kill only 6 of the 75+.
You do realize how infinitesimal the odds are of this happening?
It is similar odds to wining the lottery.

While technically possible, it is so improbable that it cannot be expected.
It is bad for competitive games to have so much random and luck factor.

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You say caps would be better because you can hurt the whole group, I say sure you can hurt the whole group but wiping it just wouldn't happen with all their tools available.

I'll say it again, please pay attention:
It isn't about wiping them nor winnig, it is about killing some of them.
Causing attrition and slowing momentum.
As I showed above, and several times before, a larger group is mechanically invulnerable. Bar extraordinary circumstances, a larger group that zerg balls will come out indemn of any confrontation.

A small group should lose against an overwhelming force, this isn't the discussion here, but it needs to be able to take some of them down.

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You can defeat the groups now, changing the mechanics seems to me you wouldn't be able to do so any more simply because they are more capable of healing the entire group along with warding damage.

Keep in mind that most heals in ESO are pre-emptive. Either through HOTs, life steal or through casting and animation time.
Before healers could react, 1 to 2 additional attacks from the enemies would have hit. Even with everyone under constantly refreshed mutagen, that's enough to wipe any group.
Also, the few reactory spells we do have cost a lot more mana to use. Especially compared to attack spells. With jedi healers able to react fast enough, the sustainability of a zerg balling group would still go down much faster than their attackers.

But see, this is a weird thing to discuss, because this would apply in choke point situations only.
We shouldn't assume the larger group is in zerg balling formation.
Remember, one focus fire of 10-12 would be enough to wipe an infinite amount of enemies in an instant. So they wouldn't be clustering anymore as it would be suicide.

This means, not everyone would be in healing range of all the healers But not everyone would be in range of focus fire either.
You can have a smaller group hit the size of a larger one and manage to kill off a subset of the group in an initial surprise attack. The large group will react and beat them, but if they killed more than they lost, they won the skirmish and did their part to win the war.
Just like in poker, you only need to win 51% of your hands to turn a profit.

This would also make equal sized fights more interesting too.
An actual frontline between two spread out group would form, as it already happens with fights where none of the groups involved use the zerg balling tactic.
It means that an individual or a 4 man group can create local contexts where they are piercing the line. It also means that target selection has an impact: kill a healer and your section of the frontline gets easier.

There are no drawbacks to the removal of the AoE cap.

Lowbei · July 2014

while it is possible for 6 to beat a massive zerg, it feels like we are fighting the ae cap instead of the zerg.

and yeah, thats spread, extended then funnelled. in a zergball, 75 would be ridiculous.

we are discussing the "average" group in the ae cap discussion, not mine.

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

They aren't..

You're not taking out 75 people with 6 people.

*gasp* feeling hoodwinked!

Lowbei · July 2014

im fine with claiming that 6 cant beat 75

for now

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

Lowbei wrote: »

im fine with claiming that 6 cant beat 75

for now

I doubt anyone will disagree.

Can you post the videos you talked about? Or were you just role playing that statement as well?

Xsorus · July 2014

quakedawg_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

They aren't..

You're not taking out 75 people with 6 people.

*gasp* feeling hoodwinked!

I believe the discussion in question was before AOE nerfs.

Before AOE nerfs, 6 people could of killed 75 if they stacked like tards....

post nerf.. no way in hell.

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

quakedawg_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

They aren't..

You're not taking out 75 people with 6 people.

*gasp* feeling hoodwinked!

I believe the discussion in question was before AOE nerfs.

Before AOE nerfs, 6 people could of killed 75 if they stacked like tards....

post nerf.. no way in hell.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. That makes much more sense.

Xsorus · July 2014

DAOC was same way, chances are if you were doing 8vs75, and you didn't kill a vast majority in the initial bomb, you were going to die.

Against numbers like that, you pretty much have to get 70% of them instantly to stand a chance.

sdande · July 2014

funny how you all talk about your theory and equations and formulas but actually never tried it out yourself in this game. You can wipe 60 stacked players with 16. it taks time, but if you have the right setup it can be done and it has been done. And its not about killing 70% of them at once with initial dmg. That wont happen with aoe caps on almost all abilitys.
You guys who say it cant be done just think that running these groups is easy as *** and everybody uses 2 buttons. It is more then that to it.

Teargrants · July 2014

@sdande‌
Ok, I got my sittin' chair all nice and comfy, ready for the youtube link.

Also for what it's worth, as will most likely be pointed out to you in the next few minutes, a group of 16 isn't a small-man.

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

Kirsika wrote: »

@sdande‌
Ok, I got my sittin' chair all nice and comfy, ready for the youtube link.

Also for what it's worth, as will most likely be pointed out to you in the next few minutes, a group of 16 isn't a small-man.

Heh, if the enemy has 70 I'd consider 16 small

Xsorus · July 2014

sdande wrote: »

funny how you all talk about your theory and equations and formulas but actually never tried it out yourself in this game. You can wipe 60 stacked players with 16. it taks time, but if you have the right setup it can be done and it has been done. And its not about killing 70% of them at once with initial dmg. That wont happen with aoe caps on almost all abilitys.
You guys who say it cant be done just think that running these groups is easy as *** and everybody uses 2 buttons. It is more then that to it.

Do people go afk a lot on the euro servers? I'm starting to get that sense

Tintinabula · July 2014

make it so groups can only be 4 max and heals and buffs only effect group members.

Morvul · July 2014

sdande wrote: »

funny how you all talk about your theory and equations and formulas but actually never tried it out yourself in this game. You can wipe 60 stacked players with 16. it taks time, but if you have the right setup it can be done and it has been done. And its not about killing 70% of them at once with initial dmg. That wont happen with aoe caps on almost all abilitys.
You guys who say it cant be done just think that running these groups is easy as *** and everybody uses 2 buttons. It is more then that to it.

From what I've seen, it can be done when:
- the 60 thought bringing 3 healers is sufficient, or
- the 16 have lot's of open space to navigate and the 60 refuse to charge at the 16

it does not happen, however, when the 16 fight a properly set up 60 at a chockepoint - which is the entire point point of this thread.

If you have enough people, chokepoints are your FRIEND, not something you fear to enter - because you do no longer care how much AoE is thrown at your group.
Therefore, AoE caps are stupid...