Will Spellcrafting be the death blow to stamina builds?

Voodoo · July 2014

Just want to say LOVE the spellcrafting idea! I do have one reservation for the idea and like the title says wondering what will become of stamina builds once it is introduced?

Is this yet another step in making magika the "go to" stat for DPS in groups? Will stamina based builds become even further obsolete? I know they mentioned having the ability to create spells to complement stamina use, but unless there is a whole spellcrafting tree dedicated to enhancing stamina and weapon use will the days of using a bow or melee just not compare to magika based abilities?

I personally think that spell abilities should be split (or at least partly split) down both resource trees, Magika & Stamina. This evens the playing field and allows for truly unique and dedicated play styles. Spellcrafting would then have both Magika AND Stamina based spells. As far as dodging/blocking goes perhaps lower the cost and add passives in spellcrafting stamina side to further off set this ...as it is now dodging just consumes too much stamina ....we are fierce warriors not some coach potato that can barely roll out of the way a few times!

Hope this game doesn't just funnel us all down the magika side.

...Your thoughts? Am I way off? Just some noob with no clue?

Welid · July 2014

I am starting to think there is a philosophy behind creating imbalance classes. You purposely boost one group of classes or abilities so everyone can play it and after a while just as they are about to get bored boost the other to keep them interested and get them to reroll and grind.

Holycannoli · July 2014

I think so. Most people are using staves and class skills as it is, so when we can design our own spells why would we want to bother with underpowered, boring stamina skills?

At least until we get some sort of "combatcrafter" for stamina skills.

Daethz · July 2014

Realize on WoW every ability can be referred to as a spell.
Is this not the same in ESO?

But yes if they make caster spells the only thing you can customize they might aswell just remove melee weapons from the game, as they are, already insanely underpowered compared to staffs.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2014

did they ever state that spellcrafting could not make stamina abilities?!

Holycannoli · July 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

did they ever state that spellcrafting could not make stamina abilities?!

I guess it's possible spellcrafting might be able to make two-handed or dual wield skills but it makes sense for it to only make magicka-based spells.

traigusb14_ESO2 · July 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

did they ever state that spellcrafting could not make stamina abilities?!

Yes, they did in the Quakecon video.

The guy then went on to say that yo could make a MAG to STA spell so STA people could have more STA to use for their current abilities.

He also said there was "something" planned for STA, but the way he said it made it look like a completely different kind of thing, that is also much farther away.

I believe it was a different guy that said STA ability damage was going to be upped, and Ultimates would be linked to whichever stat was higher on your char pretty soon.

Voodoo · July 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

did they ever state that spellcrafting could not make stamina abilities?!

I just re-watched that part and sounds like it's all magika based. starting at 6:50 of the quakecon ESO panel Nick talks about trying to balance melee and stamina based builds through other means, but nothing to do with spellcrafting. He say's they are aware of the inbalance and that was not their intentions which is great but cant help but feel that introducing a complete line of custom magika based spells will do little to actually help balance this thing out haha!

...They better crank up that melee/bow weapon damage quite a bit.

Ser Lobo · July 2014

I think that players have made an issue out of something that was never intended to be.

I don't think the devs ever intended there to be a build that only used one stat pool. In fact, if it wasn't considered an 'Elder Scrolls Thing', I don't think any of our abilities would use stamina at all. It would only be used for finesse abilities, like block, sprint, etc.

But many players, myself included, don't like playing mages. And from this, players have intentionally built themselves into a corner by bending their builds to use what can only be seen as 'accessory' skills. These aren't main abilities at all.

It's like someone trying to armor out in nothing but jewelry, rings and necklaces. Certain games (and certain TES mods) allow it, but most games would look at you funny.

I believe ZOS is rectifying the issue, though, rethinking their design to compensate for players doing what players do ... sticking forks in the gears, every time.

But this has many facets to consider. Average damage and output per skill. Average CC ability per skill. Gain per stamina or magicka attribute point. Gear set bonuses. Food and drink bonuses. Finesse use. Mundus Stone bonuses.

There is a lot they are reevaluating and changing to bring this playstyle up to par.

I would love to see an option in spellcrafting to allow the abilities to draw from stamina or magicka, etc. This would be an amazing addition.

Of course, one player made a suggestion I also loved, something along the lines of 'Martial Training'. Similar to spellcrafting, allowing players to combine the martial styles of various races by collecting books and manuscripts, and build our own fighting arts. You could be part Yokudan swordmaster, part bladesinger, etc, etc.

jelliedsoup · July 2014

Welid wrote: »

I am starting to think there is a philosophy behind creating imbalance classes. You purposely boost one group of classes or abilities so everyone can play it and after a while just as they are about to get bored boost the other to keep them interested and get them to reroll and grind.

I was thinking the same thing. Same builds would get boring after a while. Nerfing/buffs/new skills takes this away.

Enkil · July 2014

Right now most magicka based abilities in game are mostly damaged based skills. The new Spellcrafting system will introduce more of those of course... but more importantly, the addition of sorely lacking utility based skills/spells will benefit a wide variety of builds, magicka and stamina based alike. Indeed, some of the spells will help you counter magicka users. Let's use the traditional ES magic spells the new system is based on as an example:

Demoralize: Fear.. self explanatory
Restore Stamina: Self explanatory
Muffle: Improve Stealth
Camouflage: Improve Stealth
Stun: Crowd Control
Dispel: Remove DoT, Debuff
Oakflesh: Armor/Damage shield
Water Walking: Move more quickly across water
Fire/Lightning/Ice Shield: Protect vs. Mages
Reflect: Protect vs. Mages
Absorb Health/Stam/Magicka: self explanatory
Conjure [whatever]: Summoned companion to help add DPS

Go here for more: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Magic

Also, don't forget that it will let you craft new Ultimates out of any of the possibilities, which will use whichever is higher, stamina or magicka.

Look past the fact that it's "spell crafting" and it's easy to see this will be a boon to any player out there.

Voodoo · July 2014

Great counter point ..and yes I did realize that like other tes games stamina was just that your stamina at swinging, dodging, sprint, ect. but like it was pointed out it gets boring to always have to pull from the same resource (magika) I play a healer all the time but I do like to play the opposite once in a while and not rely on magika at all if possible.

I love the idea of a Martial Training or crafting aspect. Specially if there was un armed combat added.

I hope they get this right and Melee can benefit from SC as much as staff users.

Fi'yra · July 2014

How? Is there any confirmation that they're all Magicka based?
Some could be Stamina based
Just because they're a spell, doesn't mean they're completely mage orientated, or magicka orientated tbh..

Hilgara · July 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I think that players have made an issue out of something that was never intended to be.

I don't think the devs ever intended there to be a build that only used one stat pool. In fact, if it wasn't considered an 'Elder Scrolls Thing', I don't think any of our abilities would use stamina at all. It would only be used for finesse abilities, like block, sprint, etc.

But many players, myself included, don't like playing mages. And from this, players have intentionally built themselves into a corner by bending their builds to use what can only be seen as 'accessory' skills. These aren't main abilities at all.

It's like someone trying to armor out in nothing but jewelry, rings and necklaces. Certain games (and certain TES mods) allow it, but most games would look at you funny.

I believe ZOS is rectifying the issue, though, rethinking their design to compensate for players doing what players do ... sticking forks in the gears, every time.

But this has many facets to consider. Average damage and output per skill. Average CC ability per skill. Gain per stamina or magicka attribute point. Gear set bonuses. Food and drink bonuses. Finesse use. Mundus Stone bonuses.

There is a lot they are reevaluating and changing to bring this playstyle up to par.

I would love to see an option in spellcrafting to allow the abilities to draw from stamina or magicka, etc. This would be an amazing addition.

Of course, one player made a suggestion I also loved, something along the lines of 'Martial Training'. Similar to spellcrafting, allowing players to combine the martial styles of various races by collecting books and manuscripts, and build our own fighting arts. You could be part Yokudan swordmaster, part bladesinger, etc, etc.

Why then would they give you an equal number of abilities in each skill line for mag and stam?

DeLindsay · July 2014

Nope, Spellcrafting will enhance Stamina based builds.

Ser Lobo · July 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

Why then would they give you an equal number of abilities in each skill line for mag and stam?

The breakdown of the skills is fairly logical and easy to see what they did. They chose class skills as 'primary' abilities. Most powerful, with more bang for your buck in terms of cost vs. damage. Guild skills (of which we have one magicka and one stamina, plus undaunted) are secondary abilities. Also considerably powerful (see silver bolts/fire rune).

Then you have weapon abilities, which are each built to their lines and fairly straightforward, but are generally far less powerful than their class/guild counterparts and more costly, but provide nice mechanics that a given class may not have (like nightblades getting an armor break through sword and shield, or sorcerers getting a closer, etc).

Since launch, there have been some pretty radical changes to passives and abilities, as ZOS adapted to the huge variety of playstyles that us players brought to the table. When we found something that works, we worked it till we broke it.

But I think it was ZOS's ideal goal, that a player have three or four prime abilities, and then mix and match some guild and accessory abilities in. I know as a nightblade, I've succeeded where many said it was impossible, not by switching to light armor and a staff, but by mixing weapon and class abilities and balancing magicka/stamina use together.

The two exceptions to the rule are the ones who break the system: pure magicka generating light armor/trait/staff builds, which they are steadily nerfing; and pure stamina weapon/guild builds, which they are steadily buffing.

The_Sadist · July 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Nope, Spellcrafting will enhance Stamina based builds.

Pretty much this. If there are Magicka based spells which act as CC / convert Magicka into Stamina / buff general damage / armour / summons etc etc they will bolster Stamina based builds who don't utilise Magicka.

Yes the Magicka damage spells will benefit those who use them, but general supporting spells will probably prove more beneficial for a Stamina user so they can optimise their Stamina usage.

My issue with spell crafting is that it may make a majority of the class spells redundant. I'm already annoyed that anyone can summon a Flame Atronach yet a Sorcerer who specialises in Daedric summoning cannot.

Shaun98ca2 · July 2014

BenS1337 wrote: »

How? Is there any confirmation that they're all Magicka based?
Some could be Stamina based
Just because they're a spell, doesn't mean they're completely mage orientated, or magicka orientated tbh..

They insinuated that spell crafting was just for Magicka use. You can use the spells for a Stamina build but it will still cost Magicka to use.

They are still looking to buff Stamina skills themselves and add more but currently SpellCrafting is not going to add more Stamina abilities.

Ser Lobo · July 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Nope, Spellcrafting will enhance Stamina based builds.

My issue with spell crafting is that it may make a majority of the class spells redundant. I'm already annoyed that anyone can summon a Flame Atronach yet a Sorcerer who specialises in Daedric summoning cannot.

The crux would be, does the sorcerer with Daedric summoning passives get passive boosts when they use spellcrafted summoning spells?

Do Mages Guild spells effect spellcrafted spells?

If either of those are true, it could effect a lot. Should a nightblade get more benefit from spells that make you stealthy or invisible? Should a sorcerer get more benefit from summons? Should dragonknights get more oomph out of fire magic?

For what little we know, it is just something else to consider.

moxiesauce · July 2014

Didn't read anything but the title, answer is no.

DeLindsay · July 2014

The_Sadist wrote: »

Pretty much this. If there are Magicka based spells which act as CC / convert Magicka into Stamina / buff general damage / armour / summons etc etc they will bolster Stamina based builds who don't utilise Magicka.

Yes the Magicka damage spells will benefit those who use them, but general supporting spells will probably prove more beneficial for a Stamina user so they can optimise their Stamina usage.

My issue with spell crafting is that it may make a majority of the class spells redundant. I'm already annoyed that anyone can summon a Flame Atronach yet a Sorcerer who specialises in Daedric summoning cannot.

I've got to disagree with that last part. I think it should've always been that way (open Class system) in which any player could be a summoner, or a warrior type, or magey type, or sneaky-stabby type, etc. Spellcrafting will move ESO that much closer to true TES games which are an open Class system. We will always have useful Class abilities and passive, but Spellcrafting will give everyone so many more option in how to play the game it only serves to improve it.

Also, for those Sorcs who DO specialize in Daedric Summoning, I can only imagine your Attronachs will be vastly superior to say mine as a NB. That is unless the summoned creations act like bound weapons and don't scale off passives.