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Elder Wars 2 Volume 2 (AoE Caps are a problem)
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Lowbei✭✭✭✭✭ArcVelarian wrote: »I agree. Tossing the AoE cap, at least in cyrodiil, would do wonders to get rid of the Zergs running around. Although, DC at least has been forced to zerg because of that multi-boxing tool running around on Wabba.
1. nobody is "forced" to zerg
2. especially not cuz of one guy
3. whaaaa?1 -
100% correct. which is how it works in reality. and why you get clever use of terrain like the 300 spartans using narrow passes to funnel larger forces and nulify their numbers.
however it would make taking keeps very difficult indeed. they would need to soften keep interiors quite a bit to stop 10 folk from making it virtually immpossible to enter an inner keep.
I would still prefer that than invincible zerg balls rolling round killing everything.
Which is fine by me. A keep should be something hard to capture.
I'm by no means an hardcore player, but from what I've witnessed, keeps get flipped back and forth very often.
And without AoE cap, there are other tools to pass, like the assault charge, negate magic and damage shields that can be used together to pass any kind of chokepoint with some coordination.
All for the better.0 -
sdande✭I run your so called zergball each evening on EU AB. We are 16 to 24 people and we are not invincible. Its not just pulsar spam as you say but pretty much a good group settup with heals, barriers and so on. You can still easily wipe 48 enemy Blob with 16 or maybe even less. Its just not so simple as you think.. You only see the pulsar spam etc. But there is lots of coordination involved in running such group. I have witnessed the lack of AoE Cap on Dk´s Banner Ultimate and it was actually not fun in group fights becuase they lasted 1 second then one group was dead. You did not have the time to move out of it so quick you where dead. So basicly what I am trying to say is, that the AoE cap may hinder small groups but also makes groupfights in general more fun because they last longer.. Its simply no fun to kill everyhting in 1 seconds nor is it fun to die this way. Therefor i am quite happy the way that zenimax has gone with the caps.. Just make sure that this idiotic necrotic Orb gets in line with every other Ability and gets a AoE/max targets cap.3
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I run your so called zergball each evening on EU AB. We are 16 to 24 people and we are not invincible. Its not just pulsar spam as you say but pretty much a good group settup with heals, barriers and so on. You can still easily wipe 48 enemy Blob with 16 or maybe even less. Its just not so simple as you think.. You only see the pulsar spam etc. But there is lots of coordination involved in running such group. I have witnessed the lack of AoE Cap on Dk´s Banner Ultimate and it was actually not fun in group fights becuase they lasted 1 second then one group was dead. You did not have the time to move out of it so quick you where dead. So basicly what I am trying to say is, that the AoE cap may hinder small groups but also makes groupfights in general more fun because they last longer.. Its simply no fun to kill everyhting in 1 seconds nor is it fun to die this way. Therefor i am quite happy the way that zenimax has gone with the caps.. Just make sure that this idiotic necrotic Orb gets in line with every other Ability and gets a AoE/max targets cap.
Yes...because in that video, You can clearly see all the fun to be had.
*grin*
*edit*
Now that I have some time, Lets talk about your post.
Saying its not Pulsar spam because you're using Group Heals and Barrier is rather silly, you're spamming Pulsar, and nothing else...Well maybe your Nb is spamming Sipon or Power Extraction every now and again, but you're pretty much sitting there spamming Pulsar running around in a big blob. There isn't a lot of coordination involved either, I posted previously that you could replace the leader of your group with a Blue Icon on the map and anyone can accomplish it, and i have entire game as proof of that..Its called Guild Wars 2..in fact it requires so little coordination that I could sign into GW2 right now, and find a zerg on my side, and do exactly the same thing you're doing with little to no thought.. and make a video of it.
Next you say its not fun because you got destroyed by Banners from a bunch of DKs because you were stacking, Completely ignoring the fact that what you're doing isn't fun for all the people who aren't stacking out there like you are to avoid the instant impulse death trains. Also saying Group Fights last longer because of AOE Caps is hilariously bad as well...Do you know what makes group fights last longer without AOE caps? Not stacking...Spreading Out on incoming, you know basic tactics learned from previous MMO's
Edited by Xsorus on July 21, 2014 10:42PMhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Shaun98ca2 wrote: »Holycannoli wrote: »xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »The way DAOC handled diminishing returns was the best method, the further you got away from the center of the PBAE, the less damage you took
This rewarded not being bad... It also kept things like stacking out of the game.
At no point is AOE caps a fix for powerful aoe
I'm in total agreement. AOE and PBAOE are two different things but the point remains that eliminating the cap eliminates this cheeseballing we predicted since we first heard of the caps.
Although didn't they say most AOE already had a cap and that they were just fixing the few skills that didn't? Supposedly we've been playing with caps since beta but nobody knew so we would spread out.
Has the video been sent to the devs via feedback or anything?
I confident the Devs KNOW whats going on. Just cause they don't comment doesn't mean they don't read/see whats going on.
This MIGHT be the "lesser of two evils". They worked on a DaOC where there weren't caps to now a game WITH caps.
WHY did they change it??????? MUST be a reason?
apparently its something about performance but Daoc never had an area cap and they used/using old tech on older servers and had just as many ppl fighting around keeps with no lag (unless there were more than 150+ in a small area then some ppl got lag).
Yeah i don't get it either!
Patch 1.2.3 nerfed the game....
Zergballing wrecked pvp......
Now waiting for Camelot Unchained!!0 -
Lowbei✭✭✭✭✭no, its nothing to do with tech.
gw2 used that excuse, and it was equally laughable when they said it.
to my knowledge, eso has made no statement about it, probably because we dont seem to have a community manager.0 -
Columba✭✭✭✭✭
✭ArcVelarian wrote: »I agree. Tossing the AoE cap, at least in cyrodiil, would do wonders to get rid of the Zergs running around. Although, DC at least has been forced to zerg because of that multi-boxing tool running around on Wabba.
lol, don't you know that this is just a super organized group? They swing their staffs all at precisely the same time and all move within half a meter of each other because they are highly skilled! Lol
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArcVelarian wrote: »I agree. Tossing the AoE cap, at least in cyrodiil, would do wonders to get rid of the Zergs running around. Although, DC at least has been forced to zerg because of that multi-boxing tool running around on Wabba.
lol, don't you know that this is just a super organized group? They swing their staffs all at precisely the same time and all move within half a meter of each other because they are highly skilled! Lol
I've seen those "multiboxers" and they're not multiboxers
Its the same thing i've seen in GW2, You want to see a Multiboxer, go look at Team Wizzy.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Columba✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I witnessed team wizzy and the other Daoc teams, and what I saw last Friday looked exactly the same. Haven't seen that guy on since Friday though.xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »ArcVelarian wrote: »I agree. Tossing the AoE cap, at least in cyrodiil, would do wonders to get rid of the Zergs running around. Although, DC at least has been forced to zerg because of that multi-boxing tool running around on Wabba.
lol, don't you know that this is just a super organized group? They swing their staffs all at precisely the same time and all move within half a meter of each other because they are highly skilled! Lol
I've seen those "multiboxers" and they're not multiboxers
Its the same thing i've seen in GW2, You want to see a Multiboxer, go look at Team Wizzy.
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sdande✭
Yes...because in that video, You can clearly see all the fun to be had.
*grin*
*edit*
Now that I have some time, Lets talk about your post.
Saying its not Pulsar spam because you're using Group Heals and Barrier is rather silly, you're spamming Pulsar, and nothing else...Well maybe your Nb is spamming Sipon or Power Extraction every now and again, but you're pretty much sitting there spamming Pulsar running around in a big blob. There isn't a lot of coordination involved either, I posted previously that you could replace the leader of your group with a Blue Icon on the map and anyone can accomplish it, and i have entire game as proof of that..Its called Guild Wars 2..in fact it requires so little coordination that I could sign into GW2 right now, and find a zerg on my side, and do exactly the same thing you're doing with little to no thought.. and make a video of it.
Next you say its not fun because you got destroyed by Banners from a bunch of DKs because you were stacking, Completely ignoring the fact that what you're doing isn't fun for all the people who aren't stacking out there like you are to avoid the instant impulse death trains. Also saying Group Fights last longer because of AOE Caps is hilariously bad as well...Do you know what makes group fights last longer without AOE caps? Not stacking...Spreading Out on incoming, you know basic tactics learned from previous MMO's
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just to make clear thats not my group. I just said "I run a 16-24 guildgroup". Not this one.
Pulsar is still best aoe you have atm. so people tend to use it; Even in small groups. To fight bigger ones.
And sry to tell you, but 16 coordinated people are not called a Blob. At least not in this game.
Wont comment on the point that such group need no leader and coordination. Everybody with a small amount of brain can tell: you are wrong. Best example is the random pug groups who eachive nothing at all. They have the groupleader icon aswell. Why do they get wiped by like 3 batshitspammers? Beacuse of no coordination.
Would love to see your video leading a good amount of players. But pls do me the favour and come to Auriels Bow EU Server at 20:00 CET.
I tell you something: you could come with 3 full raids and still loose against my 16.
What does that tell you? Blobs are not unkillable.
Another thing you have to get in your mind is the lagg is causing many problems in such fights. Its not only AoE Caps that keep such groups alive atm. Its mostly hard serverlag in direct surrounding of this big group.
Next thing is about the banners. I did not say that we died to them. I said it was a bannerfest. Nothing to counter it. 1 second long fights between even groups are not fun, not even for the winner. You cant negate 6+ Banners when enemy group stealth incs you from close range. We did it. It was done to us. It was simply no fun/entertaining. Things you cant counterplay are lame in my opinion.
And btw Banners have a shackle synergy, so if enemy/you is not stupid you couldnt move out of it at all. THings have changed by now
And pls dont talk about things you dont know or seem not to understand. If you spread out like crazy in all directions healing is getting verry bad same with every other thing like shields and also purges. Thats not even something that has to do with AoE caps. Caps sure help to avoid lots of dmg on singletargets and spread them on more. But they dont hinder you or your group to outplay bigger ones.
I am not arguing that AoE caps are the way to go but you should think about flaming all day about those impuls trains. Most of them are easy outplayed by not more then 10 good playing guys.
Your argumentation is not better then mine if you say: What makes fights longer is no AoE caps and spreading out. Beacuse in fact there are AoE caps and you cant flame adopting players to use that mechanic in there use.
Dont forget to tell me if your group is ready on AB. Would love to wipe your 3 raids stacking up with ease
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yes...because in that video, You can clearly see all the fun to be had.
*grin*
*edit*
Now that I have some time, Lets talk about your post.
Saying its not Pulsar spam because you're using Group Heals and Barrier is rather silly, you're spamming Pulsar, and nothing else...Well maybe your Nb is spamming Sipon or Power Extraction every now and again, but you're pretty much sitting there spamming Pulsar running around in a big blob. There isn't a lot of coordination involved either, I posted previously that you could replace the leader of your group with a Blue Icon on the map and anyone can accomplish it, and i have entire game as proof of that..Its called Guild Wars 2..in fact it requires so little coordination that I could sign into GW2 right now, and find a zerg on my side, and do exactly the same thing you're doing with little to no thought.. and make a video of it.
Next you say its not fun because you got destroyed by Banners from a bunch of DKs because you were stacking, Completely ignoring the fact that what you're doing isn't fun for all the people who aren't stacking out there like you are to avoid the instant impulse death trains. Also saying Group Fights last longer because of AOE Caps is hilariously bad as well...Do you know what makes group fights last longer without AOE caps? Not stacking...Spreading Out on incoming, you know basic tactics learned from previous MMO's
"just to make clear thats not my group. I just said "I run a 16-24 guildgroup". Not this one."
i didn't say that was your group, i said your group doing what they're doing is not fun....It wasn't fun when the Pugs were doing it in GW2, and its not fun in this game when the Zergs are doing it.
"Pulsar is still best aoe you have atm. so people tend to use it; Even in small groups. To fight bigger ones. "
Yes, people spam the instant pbae that ignores blocking, we know that
"And sry to tell you, but 16 coordinated people are not called a Blob. At least not in this game."
16 people is a blob, Where you people get that running around with 16 people is not a blob i'll never understand....Esp if you're blobbing up like in that video. It's also zerging but that's a different matter.
"Wont comment on the point that such group need no leader and coordination. Everybody with a small amount of brain can tell: you are wrong. Best example is the random pug groups who eachive nothing at all. They have the groupleader icon aswell. Why do they get wiped by like 3 batshitspammers? Beacuse of no coordination."
I have an entire game that proves you wrong like I said. The only thing you need for coordination in this game is a blue symbol over your head. That's all it would take. You pretending that its somehow skillful to run in a straight line spamming the 1 key while occasionally throwing down ultimates when ya get to a big clump is pretty hilarious.
"Would love to see your video leading a good amount of players. But pls do me the favour and come to Auriels Bow EU Server at 20:00 CET.
I tell you something: you could come with 3 full raids and still loose against my 16.
What does that tell you? Blobs are not unkillable."
Well first of all, if I brought 60 people with me to your server (which by the way is pretty hilarious in itself) we'd run over you in a second by simply doing the same thing you're doing. Simple math proves we'd win by shear numbers and the way game mechanics are. You killing a bunch of spread out people is not the same as you killing 60 people stacking on top of one another doing the same thing you're doing. By the way you're a blob
"Another thing you have to get in your mind is the lagg is causing many problems in such fights. Its not only AoE Caps that keep such groups alive atm. Its mostly hard serverlag in direct surrounding of this big group."
Yea, its AOE caps that keep such groups alive, simply look at the math provided up above
"Next thing is about the banners. I did not say that we died to them. I said it was a bannerfest. Nothing to counter it. 1 second long fights between even groups are not fun, not even for the winner. You cant negate 6+ Banners when enemy group stealth incs you from close range. We did it. It was done to us. It was simply no fun/entertaining. Things you cant counterplay are lame in my opinion.
And btw Banners have a shackle synergy, so if enemy/you is not stupid you couldnt move out of it at all. THings have changed by now "
Except Negate Magic, and learning how to dodge roll. The hilarious part is you thought that was unfun, but running in a 16 man blob spamming 1 key is somehow incredibly fun. I guess having to pay attention to your surrounding was a hassle
"And pls dont talk about things you dont know or seem not to understand. If you spread out like crazy in all directions healing is getting verry bad same with every other thing like shields and also purges. Thats not even something that has to do with AoE caps. Caps sure help to avoid lots of dmg on singletargets and spread them on more. But they dont hinder you or your group to outplay bigger ones."
You mean things like Shields and Purges and Heals might require someone who's not completely brain dead to play? Instead of just standing in a small area and hitting the people who are damaged? you might actually have to have situational awareness when healing? *grin*
"I am not arguing that AoE caps are the way to go but you should think about flaming all day about those impuls trains. Most of them are easy outplayed by not more then 10 good playing guys."
I'm sure you'll provide videos of you taking a small 10 man, and killing these large impulse trains with ease.
"Your argumentation is not better then mine if you say: What makes fights longer is no AoE caps and spreading out. Beacuse in fact there are AoE caps and you cant flame adopting players to use that mechanic in there use."
I don't flame you for using the mechanic, I find that the reasoning you like it is because it makes fights longer because you were having trouble spreading out is hilarious..I don't blame you one bit for running the impulse train in its current form, Its the most efficient way to get AP..But please dude, don't pretend you're doing something remotely skillful, Not even the blobs in GW2 pretended that.
"Dont forget to tell me if your group is ready on AB. Would love to wipe your 3 raids stacking up with ease "
I run primarily in a 4 man group, you know that thing that requires a bit of skill to take on large groups of people because we don't have an invisible mechanic saving us from AOE damage..Now if you like to come over to Wabbajack US and 4v4 us, I'm sure we could do that (Actually are you even able to come to the US from the euro servers? I've never actually checked on that)
Edited by Xsorus on July 22, 2014 12:54AMhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
sdande✭I will not continue this. Just some final words from my side:
I spent 80-90% of my time in PVP and maybe 2/10hours playtime is in such group. Rest is solo, duo, smallscale, waht ever.
I did not say killing a bunch of randoms who are spread out and unorganised is skillfull in any means. And actually we are always looking for big groups of players (the ones who are in ts and play descent) not just Ap farming by killing randoms.
But if you want to counterplay the big double/tripple raids with half or the third of the numbers, skill is involved.
It was proven that we can stand 60+ stacked enemys and still survive and kill. Not with running in them and letting the caps work against us but I wont go into detail now.
Its more then the 1 button spam. I actually play with 2 bars and use every single spell in there. Like you would do in your smallscale scenario. I use bufffood and potions, have good gear and stats. Maybe you can work on that aswell
Your theory crafting is not getting every factor involved in your equation..
About the server thing: I did not know you play on US. I just thought on a different campaign.
Did not play or even watch gw2 so I have no clue at all.
And last somehting to think about: If you encounter an enemy group of 4 players with your own 4; there is no blob.
If you encounter an enemy group of 16 with your 4 man group thats a "blob"
But if I encounter a group of 50 + same number of randoms with my 16 man group. Then we are not the blob. Are we?
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I will not continue this. Just some final words from my side:
I spent 80-90% of my time in PVP and maybe 2/10hours playtime is in such group. Rest is solo, duo, smallscale, waht ever.
I did not say killing a bunch of randoms who are spread out and unorganised is skillfull in any means. And actually we are always looking for big groups of players (the ones who are in ts and play descent) not just Ap farming by killing randoms.
But if you want to counterplay the big double/tripple raids with half or the third of the numbers, skill is involved.
It was proven that we can stand 60+ stacked enemys and still survive and kill. Not with running in them and letting the caps work against us but I wont go into detail now.
Its more then the 1 button spam. I actually play with 2 bars and use every single spell in there. Like you would do in your smallscale scenario. I use bufffood and potions, have good gear and stats. Maybe you can work on that aswell
Your theory crafting is not getting every factor involved in your equation..
About the server thing: I did not know you play on US. I just thought on a different campaign.
Did not play or even watch gw2 so I have no clue at all.
And last somehting to think about: If you encounter an enemy group of 4 players with your own 4; there is no blob.
If you encounter an enemy group of 16 with your 4 man group thats a "blob"
But if I encounter a group of 50 + same number of randoms with my 16 man group. Then we are not the blob. Are we?
Yes, you're still blobbing... Don't confuse Blobbing with Zerging...Though they're often the same in this game.
Zergs can be spread out, Blobbing is just that..Standing on top of one another spamming abilities.
Also as a 16 man, that's a zerg...You getting out zerged doesn't change that.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »I confident the Devs KNOW whats going on. Just cause they don't comment doesn't mean they don't read/see whats going on.
This MIGHT be the "lesser of two evils". They worked on a DaOC where there weren't caps to now a game WITH caps.
WHY did they change it??????? MUST be a reason?
They might not know. I think they post on reddit instead of here so they might be fairly clueless to what the cap is actually doing to gameplay.
I mean come on, stacking together to defend against AOE? It's ass backwards to what should be happening.2 -
quakedawg_ESO✭✭✭I will not continue this. Just some final words from my side:
I spent 80-90% of my time in PVP and maybe 2/10hours playtime is in such group. Rest is solo, duo, smallscale, waht ever.
Don't worry about it sdande. Just laugh. You'll find people here telling you that you aren't having fun even though there is an extremely good chance you are. You'll find others here that tell you what time zone you should be playing in. Others will try and tell you how you should play while logged in to the game.
When you find someone who has zero idea the difference between opinion and fact, you know what little they are working with. Don't take them serious, laugh, and roll with it.
Welcome to the AvA forums and anonymity.
Pro Tip: Form a group of 4 and hang out with the zerg. Now you can claim you only run with 4. I'm l33t
'I've never died in AvA. Undefeated!'
'My group of 4 will often take on 100+ with no problem. I have videos to prove it'
'All the abilities on my keyboard require real skill to spam'0 -
c0rp✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have such a hard time believing that THIS is the pvp that @zos_BrianWheeler envisioned.Force weapon swap to have priority over EVERYTHING. Close enough.
Make stamina builds even with magicka builds.
Disable abilities while holding block.
Give us a REASON to do dungeons more than once.
Remove PVP AoE CAP. It is ruining Cyrodiil.
Fix/Remove Forward Camps. They are ruining Cyrodiil.
Impenetrability needs to REDUCE CRIT DAMAGE. Not negate entire builds.
Werewolf is not equal to Vamps/Bats.0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Holycannoli wrote: »Shaun98ca2 wrote: »I confident the Devs KNOW whats going on. Just cause they don't comment doesn't mean they don't read/see whats going on.
This MIGHT be the "lesser of two evils". They worked on a DaOC where there weren't caps to now a game WITH caps.
WHY did they change it??????? MUST be a reason?
They might not know. I think they post on reddit instead of here so they might be fairly clueless to what the cap is actually doing to gameplay.
I mean come on, stacking together to defend against AOE? It's ass backwards to what should be happening.
I can overly guarantee you the Devs KNOW whats going on. You can read about it here, Reddit, and Tamerial Foundry. I'm sure people have even /feedback.
There's a few things to really discuss when it comes to AOE caps.
1. Comparing TESO to GW2 is just plain bad. Yes its fine to note that AOE caps were terrible in that game but was it really JUST the AOE caps that lead to that?
2. We know that DaOC had no caps.....though I believe that game used diminishing returns the farther from the center of the attack. THATS A CAP. Though its a cap used differently.
3. Lets look at the fact for a LONG time we didn't know there were caps. There were complaints about certain abilities in the game that we come to find out DIDNT have the caps limit like they were supposed to be the community complained about them.
4. Lets remove the caps. OK now I can heal MORE people in a blob. I can ward damage off EVERYBODY in a blob via DragonKnight ability. I can reduce damage taken to everybody in the group. I can work my character to have extremely high spell resistance so while in the blob I take negligible damage from AE affects with full knowledge that I WILL get heal. The BLOB actually become MORE protected with more people in it. SURE you can AE them all at the same time but can you out damage their damage reduction PLUS healing PLUS 100+ people attacking you on sight once you decide to attack the group.
Sure the removal of caps SOUNDS good in theory, but I can just as easily pose it as a terrible idea.
We know you CAN defeat these zergballs with smaller groups as long as the smaller group is skilled.
We see the zergballs in the game but destroying them constantly with ease would show that its a bad practice.
With or without the caps its easily known that spreading out IS a better tactic except for getting healed. 6 - 12 people circling a zergball have an absolute advantage as they are getting hit from all sides and can only heal so many people at once. MAYBE AE targeting promotes this while its capped it actually wrecks more havoc on a zergball than we realize when 6 people are spamming AE on it.1 -
Fuzzylumpkins✭✭✭✭Thank you for the video. It has reminded me how much of an atrocity this game is, play and graphics wise.0
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Morvul✭✭✭✭✭
Oh, I don't know... maybe the fact that against a coordinated group, the zergball will be dead in 5 seconds (no matter how much healing they spam)?Luvsfuzzybunnies wrote: »I agree here. I dont know what makes people think removing aoe caps is gonna stop zerg balling.
of course, they will survive by spreading out - but at that point, we actually have a organic fight, not a zergball...
Edited by Morvul on July 22, 2014 5:27AM0 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭
no, the DAoC system with lower damage at the outside of an AoE meant that the "effective radius" of an AoE was rather small.Shaun98ca2 wrote: »2. We know that DaOC had no caps.....though I believe that game used diminishing returns the farther from the center of the attack. THATS A CAP. Though its a cap used differently.
Smaller AoEs is something very different to capped AoEs.
Reduced damage at the outskirts of AoE means spreading out is usefull even if you do not manage to get completely out of the Effekt.
Target caps on AoE mean that spreading out is counterproductive to avoiding the damage.
see the difference in gameplay promoted by the 2 different mechanics?
well, some abilites beeing much, much stronger then other abilities is a problem, obviously.Shaun98ca2 wrote: »4. Lets look at the fact for a LONG time we didn't know there were caps. There were complaints about certain abilities in the game that we come to find out DIDNT have the caps limit like they were supposed to be the community complained about them.
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭
no, the DAoC system with lower damage at the outside of an AoE meant that the "effective radius" of an AoE was rather small.Shaun98ca2 wrote: »2. We know that DaOC had no caps.....though I believe that game used diminishing returns the farther from the center of the attack. THATS A CAP. Though its a cap used differently.
Smaller AoEs is something very different to capped AoEs.
Reduced damage at the outskirts of AoE means spreading out is usefull even if you do not manage to get completely out of the Effekt.
Target caps on AoE mean that spreading out is counterproductive to avoiding the damage.
see the difference in gameplay promoted by the 2 different mechanics?
Ok that's different never played DaOC so don't know the mechanics.
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The fact that it can be countered is irrelevant.
What is relevant is what is the cost of countering a zerg in balling formation: It is a question of barrier of entry.
Either you have the skills/numbers to beat them or you don't.
It is a binary skill test.
Without an AoE cap, the people that always get wiped will still get wiped. However, they won't die without incurring damage to the other group and take out a few members, effectively reducing the momentum and "steam rolling" effect.
It will be a linear skill test.
I strongly recommend reading this series of articles t oudnerstand what I mean by binary/linear skill tests and barrier of entry.
Also, the fact we didn't notice before is irrelevant as well. The mechanic itself is bad, wether we know about it or not. Having undiagnosed cancer is just as bad as being aware of it. Perhaps worst as you aren't treating it.
And as we witnessed, as soon as it was made public knowledge, player behaviour changed accordingly and started exploiting the system by zerg balling.1 -
Krinaman✭✭✭Can someone explain to me why a small group should be able to beat a large group?
Because that seems to be the general theme in all these AOE threads. A large group came and killed my small group. QQ, fix it so I can always win.
I get that the small group hates losing but when you are outnumbered the typical result is you lose. Should we change the game so when 5 guys gank me off my horse that I can solo them all and win? Or should I lose because I am outnumbered?1 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭
small group being able to beat a stupid large group is in my opionion just a side effect of removing AoE caps.Can someone explain to me why a small group should be able to beat a large group?
The main point is: you should die to AoE if you refuse to move out of AoE.
In a no AoE caps world, a well played small group would never beat a spread-out, well played large group...
they would beat a large group that stacks up within 3 meters and decides that ignoring AoE effects is fun
Edited by Morvul on July 22, 2014 3:17PM0 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Posted elsewhere, but reposting here:
The way to avoid AE damage should not be to stack up. It's just silly.
This reminds me also of Shadowbane which had very similar issues. It was a ridiculous tactic that's made more egregious by AE caps (which Shadowbane also had).
We're getting close to the stack fighting of old. I've seen it happen a few times where two blobs get on top of each other and both AE and see who survives. Once it becomes the 'default tactic' that everyone uses, we'll be there.
Check this video of one of the original 'stack fighting' pvp games and tell me if this looks fun or innovative --
Click Here
This was in a game where players could be CENTAURS and Minotaurs and Flying Aracroix and Templars would could transform into angels and fly. They obviously intended tons of flowing movement and battlefield maneuverability to affect how fights were waged.
Instead, the most effective thing was to make the toughest dwarf in the world and stack everyone together and spam AEs.
Shadowbane has since been sunsetted and shut down.
Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
Once a General, now a Citizen
Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!1 -
Lowbei✭✭✭✭✭the reality is that its small _ _ _ _ group should be able to beat a large _ _ _ group, to make skill more of a factor, which is inarguably a positive change.
unfortunately, this concept, while true, hurts the feelings of the zergers, and thus we have to tiptoe around the issue because the epolice have strict rules against hurting someones feelings, making the argument tedious.
[self edited to adhere to forum regulations
] Edited by Lowbei on July 22, 2014 3:46PM1 -
Can someone explain to me why a small group should be able to beat a large group?
Because that seems to be the general theme in all these AOE threads. A large group came and killed my small group. QQ, fix it so I can always win.
I get that the small group hates losing but when you are outnumbered the typical result is you lose. Should we change the game so when 5 guys gank me off my horse that I can solo them all and win? Or should I lose because I am outnumbered?
Read again then, it's not only a matter of winning but also doing damage and improving the fights.
See, a large group is an organic advantage, so the odds already are in their favour and as you said, they should win.
However, with target caps and the use of zerg balling, a large group also have a mechanical advantage and gain a form of invulnerability. Either you have the fire power to break them, or you don't.
With that invulnerability, the larger group keeps momentum and there is no slowing/splitting them until you just outnumber them or put in indordinate amount of efforts compared to what they are doing.
A smaller group, with all matter of skill, character and gear equal, should be able to do damage to the larger group.
This way, an under populated faction or front can still cause attrition to the enemy, make them waste time getting back to the fight or pay for soulgems, and over time, engineering a situation where the fight is "balanced".
As for why it would improve the fights, well it is simple. For a game to have long term appeal, you need to have depth and a high skill ceiling. Zerg balling limits this.
Not only is it easy to pull off, but being the optimum strategy means there is no need to learn any thing else more complex. There is no room for players to grow.
Regarding depth, many more tactics would become viable without target caps hoging all the attention.
In the end, chokepoints should matter, ambushes should be possible and bad players should get wiped.
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