The obligatory DOOM thread.

Phinix1 · July 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

I don't agree with most of what you say, but kudos for the awesome video.

williamburr2001b14_ESO · July 2014

The justice system is going to be bananas, and I cannot wait for that to happen.

Hilarity trumps optimality every time, and hilarity will ensue.

Ralathar44 · July 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I don't agree with most of what you say, but kudos for the awesome video.

Haha, like I said knowledge is the important thing. You should watch all of their videos. They are not right all of the time, but they are right nearly all of the time and that's pretty darn good. They've also got more video's than this game has Khajiits

. (slight exaggeration but they've got ALOT)

They talk about alot of really good things that are important to game design that you'd never think about on your own. I've learned alot from them as well.

On subject, gamers rarely like to believe the negative things (unless it serves our personal agendas, in which case it's a positive in disguise). But sometimes it's what's needed. A perfect example is Enhancement Diversification for City of Heroes. It was a global nerf to everyone, especially tanks/melee DPS/Controllers. It was HATED.

However it built the framework for much better game balance and the invention system, which ushered the game it's golden age. It'd still be going today if it wasn't for NCSoft being *censored*. They were still profitable and actively releasing new content at the time it was canceled. In fact they basically ripped off everyone who bought the last batch of content. For comparison's sake, Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot are both still running today.

SteveCampsOut · July 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Troll posting with a threat to spread the negative opinion far and wide on the internet tacked on at the end. Yeah. Whatever. I might have thought more about what you said til you tacked on that threatening PS at the end. You just sound like someone with an axe to grind now.

That was only if I was censored. I don't personally believe Zenimax would do it, but there are quite a few game companies out there that will forcibly try to control opinion through moderation. Consider that a kind of pre-emptive to ensure that you got to mock and insult me as is your right.

I don't have any personal animus, I actually like this game and want the best for it. That means I have to sometimes make hard calls and decisions. This was one of those. As stated in a comment above I also predicted the decline of WOW, the auction house problems of D3, and after playing it around 2 weeks to a month I judged SWTOR as a bad game.

I was mocked and insulted for all of those as well. /shrug, this is kind of expected.

I'd honestly rather be wrong, I just don't believe that to be the case and even if you are not polite to me and characterize me as what you wish I can be polite to you without painting you out to be anything.

Well sir, When you title a thread in the manner you did, you write "Opinions" as facts and add not even thinly veiled threats, It's not me characterizing you. It's you defining your own character. I also have over 15 years experience in MMO's. I started playing MMO's with Ultima Online in 1997, went from there to EverQuest in 1999 which lasted til DAoC hit Beta, of which I was a part of, and I spent 6 years there. I was a Beta Tester for EVE and Earth & Beyond and I also beta tested TESO starting in November. There was some time also spent in Guild Wars, and WOW along with a fair share of Free to Play MMO's including Perfect World and Runes of Magic. So those are my Bonafide's sir. People have been shouting Doom and Gloom about MMO's since the very first one. Hell, some people think DAoC has closed it's doors and yet, It's still collecting subscriptions and hasn't gone F2P. So, however nicely you think you've put it all down, you've still just trolled the ESO forums with pretty much the same song and dance I've seen a million times before.

Audigy · July 2014

1. Grouping updates.

Yes, they did mention this in their presentation. However they said it would be fixed over the course of a few updates. That could be as late as early 2015 to fully fix it (if it's rolled out incrementally).

This should be their #1 priority in the game right now. It's the biggest problem that is costing the game population and it needs to be fixed now, within 1-2 months. There are alot of quests and code is hard, I understand that, people that cannot team with their friends ultimately don't care.

What exactly do you mean?

Do you want even more updates for group content or is there something else wrong?

I am asking because group content was supplied in every update so far, don't you think that this is more than enough already?

Yes the nerf to VR was not so fun, I agree - but also because I like to play with others and this is now a bit difficult. But based on what the updates brought there has only been group content and more has already been announced.

2. Justice System:

I actually think overall that this is really nice overall. However I think there is about a 1 in 3 chance that something significantly bad is going to happen because of the justice system. I'm not sure if it'll be griefing or an oversight that negatively effects the economy, but after their presentation I was left with a heavy feeling that there will be a significant loophole that will cause alot of problems.

That being said, this is only a chance and it could be minor, it's not near as big of a worry as the other points.

You mean because of the killing from NPCs? Well, this is pretty standard in MMOs, nothing bad with it.

The only question I have is, will the bounty be credited to the person who caught the thief, or will we get nada for it?

3. Stamina Builds:

Yes they are looking into them, however even if they implement the changes they mentioned without issues or bugs in the current state of the game stamina builds will still be easily inferior to magicka builds.

At least it'll be better but there are a good amount of people whose patience really is running out. I like my stamina builds, they are my favorite builds honestly, it still bothers me that I cannot build viably without magicka abilities and that won't change so long as most non-weapon skill lines are magicka based. Because they have all the utility they we need AND they use a separate resource pool.

Oh, and now we have spell crafting to make stamina builds even LESS competitive.

I think you missed a few parts of their presentation. Spellcrafting is not only for mages, its for everyone.
You can summon pets, you can enchant your body armor and your weapons etc,

They also change how stamina abilities will queue up, its going to be client side in future and no longer server side. This will speed up your damage output a lot. No longer do you need to wait for heavy hits to utilize, it will be a lot faster from now on.

4. Spell Crafting:

PVE and PVP balance completely destroyed. Simple as that. PVE balance is already bad , PVP balance is still completely broken. This addition would be enough to easily break a balanced game, this one isn't even close to balanced.

PVE will still be playable and fun, don't get me wrong, but the balance is going to be even worse borked than it currently is.

Why does an MMO need to be balanced in first place? This isn't an Esports title, its an MMO. Its pretty normal that some chars and weapons are strong than others.

The problem is that the Elitist players exclude you from their raids or pvp groups, but how to fix this? I don't know! But to remove any type of variance from the roles is definitely the wrong answer as Blizzard has proven.

5. Plans to implement a battleground.

This will kill Cyrodil populations. They are aware of that, they say they will find away to implement it where that will not happen. This is simply not possible. If you implement alternative PVP and people play it, you will lower Cyrodil populations. The better and more rewarding that alternative PVP is, the more people will leave Cyrodil. Especially because it will be instant action and balanced vs having to find it and possibly being outnumbered.

There is literally no way to implement alternative PVP without lowering the open world population, it's as simple as that.

This I agree with.

Any Arena or BG must offer less rewards than Cyrodil. It also must be available for solo gamers, with own rewards that don't collide with Cyrodil.

P.S. In case I actually get moderated for presenting my opinion supported by points that DO at least have SOME merit, I have copied this thread and saved it in a word file and will spread it in sites beyond just this forum and reddit. But I'd like to keep it very focused and exercise my free speech without undue censorship if at all possible. Regardless of whether you consider me right or wrong

To threaten the Mods here is silly and I hope you know that.

Murmeltier · July 2014

Oh man, ok here we go....

i played many MMORPGs before TESO, i played them from the start. I am an old Dog and i know the Mechanics and Storytelling in the Foren.

Here we see a good example, we mix some Numbers, some Compliments and hide the Goal we try to sell, the Critics.

If we argue against this Critics, we are Fanboys or the "other" 50%. So the only Way you offer is to say "Yes, it is so". I don`t know why People try to tell Storys about something, mean they see the only Truth or try to manipulate other Players to believe them. Do you really believe that this works, that so many People are naiv or silly?

I think the most Players knows it better, knowing the Numbers or investigate many I-Sites before they build their own Opinion.

For me it is no Secret, TESO is the actual best Online Game on the Market. I played this Game from the Start and spend a lot of Time in it but i dont get bored because you can do and explore Tons of Things.

This Game have a fantastic Atmosphere/Sounds/Graphics, i never see and hear better Effects in any other MMORPG. The Details in this Game are awesome and the Gameplay makes a lot of Fun. I am very happy about this fantastic new Infos from the Quakecon and every old Dog knows how much Option this Game has.

TESO offers a good Base and every Step into the Future, every Patch will make this Game even better. I don`t know how long i wait for an MMORPG like this, a Game that makes me hot for the next Login.

This, of course is my personal Sight but i know that many People have enough Experience to see this too and support this Game.

Beowulf_McCallum · July 2014

The best thing they could do for balance is implement this spell craft system. And I'll go one step further... They need to do away with the 'pick your class' at character creation and allow you to choose a 'profession/school' in game. Make it an academy to visit or what have you.

SteveCampsOut · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Why does an MMO need to be balanced in first place? This isn't an Esports title, its an MMO. Its pretty normal that some chars and weapons are strong than others.

The problem is that the Elitist players exclude you from their raids or pvp groups, but how to fix this? I don't know! But to remove any type of variance from the roles is definitely the wrong answer as Blizzard has proven.

Quoted for total agreement. In DAoC, when the stealther classes were being ignored by the "leet" crowd, they formed their own stealth gank groups and made their presence known in a whole new way! I, as did every other dress wearing magic user, grew to fear the stealth!

Audigy wrote:

5. Plans to implement a battleground.

This will kill Cyrodil populations.

This I agree with.

Any Arena or BG must offer less rewards than Cyrodil. It also must be available for solo gamers, with own rewards that don't collide with Cyrodil.

Well you'd both be wrong. Adding Battlegrounds for the lower levels in DAoC didn't kill PvP. It gave people PVP in areas that they weren't massively out gunned by higher level players. It increased the amount of PvP in that game! Sure, Cyrodil will loose a few, and I mean very few, low level players, but the new BG's will fill with players more willing to face other players who aren't God's compared to themselves!

Audigy wrote:

P.S. In case I actually get moderated for presenting my opinion supported by points that DO at least have SOME merit, I have copied this thread and saved it in a word file and will spread it in sites beyond just this forum and reddit. But I'd like to keep it very focused and exercise my free speech without undue censorship if at all possible. Regardless of whether you consider me right or wrong

To threaten the Mods here is silly and I hope you know that.

Glad someone else agrees on this point!

aronothub17_ESO · July 2014

1. Grouping updates.

Honestly while i personally understand the concern about this, i dont see an issue here. personally i would rather them take the time to make sure its implemented properly than just thrown out half baked and cause serious problems.

2. Justice System:
as you and others have said this one is a grey area it can be implemented very well and be very awesome or a horrible fail. one thing i think that needs to be looked at, which they really didnt mention, is the punishment. To me, if you go on a killing spree, getting killed and your bounty wiped is simply not enough. i was thinking about this one last night and honestly thought up a couple ways that it could allow the freedom, but make the penalty higher but more fair, inorder to prevent griefing.

first i think that there should be a system that changes the way bounties are. instead of your bounty being wiped when killed, it is instead reduced. this would make the system risk higher. with one death you pay what maybe a hundred gold to repair your gear, this on the other hand would increase that cost and reduce the number of people willing to just go on a mass murder spree because there is no cost.

i would also like to see the prison system implemented. i know this is like ummm its an mmo in a persistent world how can you do this. actually easily, your character cant pay your fine you choose jail. your time in prison = 1 hour per, say thousand gold bounty. this timer is much like the research timers, and in turn if you accept your punishment you can log off and play another toon until your able to play that one again, but of course it needs to be elderscrolly, so you can of course break out of prison, with great risk of getting caught, if you manage to get out you get a bounty but your previous one is wiped. so, say its like 1k gold bounty for prison break. that's all youd owe if successful which still allows players to hunt you.

of course, say you have someone that needs your character out of prison but you cant break out, you broke your lock pick or whatever, hey if they need you that bad they can break you out

3. Stamina Builds:

this one i really cant comment on as i really dont have much of a stamina build, but again i cant say doom because its not dealt with instantly, just give it time. This is a very ambitious game and will take time to balance

4. Spell Crafting:
ok, ill admit i both love and fear this one. it is another system that can cause a great change either good or bad. Now not to mention there is the fact that it has the potential to make class spells and abilities useless and basically makes the whole class system useless.

now, dont get me wrong i like the idea to a degree, but it is definitely be something that would require a great deal of balance, so i hope they take some time to implement it properly. This one i'd admit would be doom. especially for groups, fact is it could, if done wrong, could make filling roles even more confusing.

On the flip side though, if done right, this could add a great deal of balance and reduce the amount of systems that they would have to alter in order to maintain balance. if they get it just right it can basically be forgotten as far as balancing goes and allow them to focus on other things, but allow the game to continually evolve without needing to hard code it themselves. so, ill say could be good or bad, but i am actually kinda excited about it personally.

5. Plans to implement a battleground.
6.
Now this one, i will kinda disagree with. Yes it will reduce populations, but also remember there are other changes in effect as far as pvp goes including campaign changes. Also dont forget you have to fight your way into the city, and if your played DAOC it is kinda like Darkness falls as far as its effect. and DF definitely did not kill the open world pvp. the imperial city is a control aspect that has to be opened to your side through open world pvp. and when you go into it what does that mean, that means that you have less people in cyrodil, which in turn means that you now have increased risk of losing it. just like DF in DAOC, you must fight to keep it. if all your people are inside the imperial city, you cant defend your keeps you cant defend your keeps you lose the city, you lose the city someone else comes in and wipes you out. they zerg you inside the city, which in turn weakens their presence in cyrodil and the cycle repeats.

Its not really adding a pvp zone, its adding a REWARD for pvp, and that is control of the city. honeslty back in DAOC we used to have a great time in DF, as it was basically like a raid zone. featured hard to access bosses, and great rewards, IE gear, for participating, but was hardly pvp breaking because once you lost the city, you made your stand and were basically dead and prevented from reentering.

Now i understand you have your view point, but some times you have to actually listen, and wait. don't always think that its 2012, the world will not always end, and besides its 2014 and we can tell now that the world didnt end, atleast wait until it comes out to claim doom and gloom

Ralathar44 · July 2014

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Well sir, When you title a thread in the manner you did, you write "Opinions" as facts and add not even thinly veiled threats, It's not me characterizing you. It's you defining your own character.

When did I ever say they were facts? I'm predicting the future, I stated that. By very definition that makes my prediction an opinion unless I claim to have some sort of magic time machine.

People have been shouting Doom and Gloom about MMO's since the very first one.

Yup, I've been there defending them throughout. Even when Enhancement Diversification happened in City of Heroes, which globally nerfed everyone. Because it was a good idea.

Hell, some people think DAoC has closed it's doors and yet, It's still collecting subscriptions and hasn't gone F2P.

No but it has gone to Broadsword Online Games which is championed by Rob Denton, who is not the most reputable guy. Remember EA Louse? The guy who got villified for talking about why Warhammer failed and then predicted that SWTOR was gonna fail? Well, something else he mentioned along the way that also had some truth to it. Rob Denton sold out Mark Jacobs, his former partner of 15 years, and used him as a scape goat. EA ruins everything lol, even old partnerships it seems. I'm still waiting to see Bioware's next project so I can see what state of EA death they are in.

Yes, I know a little about that too. I also know that the other big DAOC guy Mark Jacobs is currently making Camelot Unchained. Which is a incredibly ambitious, or BSC bat-****-crazy, as they put it, project with a small team aiming for a niche crowd. I dunno whether he will succeed or not, but I think even if it fails the things they are trying will be of worth to the industry as they tend to be revolutionary rather than evolutionary. It was successfully kick started for over 2 million. Mark put in 2 million of his own money because as he explained it, people were putting their money in it'd be wrong of him not to as well.

City of Titans is also something in the works formed primarily by fans of City of Heroes who aim to capture the spirit of that game. They also have alot of volunteer work. It's definitely a dark horse and a long shot, but they've shown alot of good work ethic, planning, and good plain common sense. I think they might be able to pull it off. they were kickstarted for nearly 700k.

I supported both of these projects with my money, I bought collectors editions of Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online. Not for shinies, to support the games. Win or lose, succeed or fail they all aimed to push the industry forwards in different ways. I recognize that, try to stay up to date on that, and I put my money where my mouth is.

So, however nicely you think you've put it all down, you've still just trolled the ESO forums with pretty much the same song and dance I've seen a million times before.

Remember the boy who cried wolf? There was that one time he was right. I'm a different boy and this is not a wolf. I'm not being rude to you, I'm supporting my claims with reasons. I'm politely discussing them with you and fully respecting you.

That alone separates me from about 90% (yeah internet made up %'s!!) of those doom sayers. But if I am wrong about my predictions, which as mentioned are OF COURSE my opinions, then I'm just a polite and more well spoken doom sayer.

danno8 · July 2014

Murmeltier wrote: »

Oh man, ok here we go....

i played many MMORPGs before TESO, i played them from the start. I am an old Dog and i know the Mechanics and Storytelling in the Foren.

Here we see a good example, we mix some Numbers, some Compliments and hide the Goal we try to sell, the Critics.

If we argue against this Critics, we are Fanboys or the "other" 50%. So the only Way you offer is to say "Yes, it is so". I don`t know why People try to tell Storys about something, mean they see the only Truth or try to manipulate other Players to believe them. Do you really believe that this works, that so many People are naiv or silly?

I think the most Players knows it better, knowing the Numbers or investigate many I-Sites before they build their own Opinion.

For me it is no Secret, TESO is the actual best Online Game on the Market. I played this Game from the Start and spend a lot of Time in it but i dont get bored because you can do and explore Tons of Things.

This Game have a fantastic Atmosphere/Sounds/Graphics, i never see and hear better Effects in any other MMORPG. The Details in this Game are awesome and the Gameplay makes a lot of Fun. I am very happy about this fantastic new Infos from the Quakecon and every old Dog knows how much Option this Game has.

TESO offers a good Base and every Step into the Future, every Patch will make this Game even better. I don`t know how long i wait for an MMORPG like this, a Game that makes me hot for the next Login.

This, of course is my personal Sight but i know that many People have enough Experience to see this too and support this Game.

I gotta ask...is there a secret message in here somewhere with all the random capital letters?

Murmeltier · July 2014

[/quote]

I gotta ask...is there a secret message in here somewhere with all the random capital letters?

[/quote]

Hm, interesting Question, please explain it in the Detail, maybe i can help.

Ralathar44 · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

To threaten the Mods here is silly and I hope you know that.

I think it's ironic to say that the promise I'll take my free speech elsewhere if denied here is a threat in the first place honestly. Honestly that feels more like the natural order of things or adapting to change. Forums are worthless after all unless they allow both sides of an argument, so long as they stay respectful. they exist for the purpose of discussion around their chosen subject matter, in this case ESO.

That's like saying if you deny me service to this establishment because I'm "insert discrimination based on view/race/religion/orientation here" I'll take my business elsewhere.

It's more of an ultimatum: "a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations."

SteveCampsOut · July 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Well sir, When you title a thread in the manner you did, you write "Opinions" as facts and add not even thinly veiled threats, It's not me characterizing you. It's you defining your own character.

When did I ever say they were facts? I'm predicting the future, I stated that. By very definition that makes my prediction an opinion unless I claim to have some sort of magic time machine.

Ralathar44 wrote:

5. Plans to implement a battleground.

This will kill Cyrodil populations. They are aware of that, they say they will find away to implement it where that will not happen. This is simply not possible.

Looks like two statements of "Fact" to me. Doesn't say "Probably will kill Cyrodil populations." or "in my opinion will kill populations of Cyrodil." And "This is simply not possible." belies the history that we have from DAoC where the Battlegrounds indeed brought more life to PvP than ever before, just in separate areas!

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

1: Agreed, and it should never have been a issue in a MMO. They had a ton of feedback on this back in beta..

2: Again agreed. PvP is always dangerously open to player exploration and grievance causing.

3: Partially Agree, Some of the 1.3 changes have made stam builds Trials Viable in damage terms... while its still not on the level of the Magicka builds yet they have definitely made strides... However even previous TES games you gimped yourself by not using your magicka resource, and your comment that you should be able to get by with just stamina, while true in the relative terms of a TES game, shows a personal issue with your gameplay experience... You will always be better using both resources... this has always been true and always will be true... even if you are just using one resource to restore another..

4: Partially Agree, In terms of balance being lost, the biggest issue will simply be that Mage builds will suddenly have more damage options... HOWEVER, alot of the spell crafting spells will be useful to non Mage builds, raising damage and such... Done right this could solve the Class issues, using a crafted spell to make up for innate weaknesses in specific classes or support current strengths, while providing powerful bonuses to non mage playstyles... It was always an advantage to have a few spells on non mage types in the previous TES games... Done wrong tho, It will make non-magicka builds utterly pointless.... this is one of those things that by its nature is too variable to be predictable until they try and implement it...

5: Disagree. you need to understand, PvP is not the center of the world... they are MASSIVELY changing how the current PVP system works with the reduction in Campains... this is stuff people have been asking for since release... about as many people dont like the raid vs raid of the allience war as there are those that do... more changes are still needed.... but this alone will not "destroy pvp" and it does nothing to the PvE content, which there is more than 10x the amount of compaired to PvP.....

while you are valid in your point that you should be able to play entirely without magicka, this is a TES game after all... you must respect the fact that doing so will always be weaker than using both magicka and stamina... just like playing as a mage and refusing to run or block in combat would always be weaker to the mages that do.... This is part of the biggest problem people who make stamina builds have... and why my stamina builds that use as much magicka as stamina for damage sometimes deal more damage than my mages, who only use the stamina resource for defensive purposes (save my sorcerer who uses it as a secondary HP/MP pool).

They do need to balance the damage potential however still... and balance will always be a issue in a MMO due to the constant addition of new abilitys... The spell crafting system could go either way in this respect... it could be a massive boost to non-puremage types who use touchings of everything they have to create crazy builds more capable than any "pure" build could hope to try.. or the overall effect could just be a massive buff to the versitility of mage builds (which it 90% will be).

your first 2 points.... i couldn't agree more.... and has been rehashed by every forum goer since beta...

however.... None of these things alone is enough to cause the game to die.... that is usually due to something completely ruining the experience.... things like lacking content or content being too hard or too easy, or having no incentive to complete the content.... so basically the issues that have been major since release and they are active attempting to change.... the game is not going to die as long as there are people who like the current systems... the people you basically write off as idiots in your original post...

Dusty5 · July 2014

Quakecon made me realize that as far as game quality this is it. all the issues covered in the 487 pages of complaints/bugs listed in customer service thread are here to stay. ZOS only goal is to continue to pile up the bullcookies and continue with its own idea of what of player development should be. From 75 bucks at launch to 19.95 on steam in a few months. I think they are running out of places to pile the fertilizer.

Ralathar44 · July 2014

Murmeltier wrote: »

If we argue against this Critics, we are Fanboys or the "other" 50%. So the only Way you offer is to say "Yes, it is so". I don`t know why People try to tell Storys about something, mean they see the only Truth or try to manipulate other Players to believe them. Do you really believe that this works, that so many People are naiv or silly?

That's a little unfair to be honest. Yes I do have strong beliefs in what I believe and it's very possible we may have to disagree, but that does not automatically make you a fanboy. The method in which you present yourself and your arguements is what defines you as a fanboy or not. Thus a fanboy and someone who disagrees with me could very well hold the same or similar views.

I'm not unreasonable, I just hold a different pont of view. I'd really prefer if you treated me with a little more respect, as I'm doing for you right now, but I understand if you are unable to do so. I am after all challenging something that you believe in and that provokes a strong reaction.

I think the most Players knows it better, knowing the Numbers or investigate many I-Sites before they build their own Opinion.

If you are a veteran at MMORPG's you'll understand that most players don't know alot of things. Especially if you are a PVP player. Even the more experienced players. For instance the amount of people who bought this game thinking it was going to be Skyrim was STAGGERING.

*Snipped ESO praise

I also praised the games for many of the things it's done right on the first page. It's got alot of flaws but it's a pretty decent MMORPG. Would be a downright really good one without the bugs, with grouping fixed, and with veteran ranks fixed. That being said at the same time those things are happening, some things that IMO will be very good short term and very bad for the game long term are also happening.

TESO offers a good Base and every Step into the Future, every Patch will make this Game even better. I don`t know how long i wait for an MMORPG like this, a Game that makes me hot for the next Login.

This, of course is my personal Sight but i know that many People have enough Experience to see this too and support this Game.

Now this kind of statement is where you finally break through into fanboy territory. You don't know that every patch will make this game better, in fact their track record currently is very much against that.

The problem here is not that you are arguing for the game, it's that you stopped arguing for the game with points and arguments and started arguing for it with pure feeling. Having those positive feelings about the game is not a bad thing, but they do not make good arguments.

Zabalah · July 2014

MMOs are like the stock market with forward looking statements. They go up (ie. game population), they go down... ultimately the stocks they hold (ie. subscriptions) they keep for the long haul.

No one can predict the future, even someone with years of experience in playing these games. If you could, I bet you would find yourself making a profitable living working for any game company of your choice.

Requiemslove · July 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I'm going to say right now, with a sad heart and no malice, that I predict the death of ESO. By death I mean significant decline of course, not actual servers shutting down. I've watched a great many people do this and laughed. I would have never believed I'd ever be the one prophesying doom for a game. But here I am lol. They just don't get some of the fundamentals of MMORPG's That's why they were able to do some great things with the game, but it is also why they had so many bad things and are not trying to finish killing it.

This is not based off of my personal feelings. I like this game and alot of the things it has done. ALOT. I enjoy it. I'm semi-burned out on it partially due to some of it's failings but that's not why this is here. This is here based on my understandings of MMORPG's and their mechanics that I have learned over the course of 15 years of playing and dissecting MMORPG's starting with Dark Age of Camelot and including many many others.

I watched the quake con presentation and some of the new changes are going to kill the game. But I don't expect you to really believe me, half of you are so committed to the game that you wouldn't believe me if it was on fire with you in the middle of it. But for the other half of you I'll try to explain why I think this.

Believe me or not, that is your choice. All I ask is that you stop and really think about each of these points and what they mean for the game. For you, for your friends, for your guild mates. AFTER the shiny wears off of em.

Now the really controversial part, where your initial reaction will be that these are all good things:

1. Grouping updates.

Yes, they did mention this in their presentation. However they said it would be fixed over the course of a few updates. That could be as late as early 2015 to fully fix it (if it's rolled out incrementally).

This should be their #1 priority in the game right now. It's the biggest problem that is costing the game population and it needs to be fixed now, within 1-2 months. There are alot of quests and code is hard, I understand that, people that cannot team with their friends ultimately don't care.

2. Justice System:

I actually think overall that this is really nice overall. However I think there is about a 1 in 3 chance that something significantly bad is going to happen because of the justice system. I'm not sure if it'll be griefing or an oversight that negatively effects the economy, but after their presentation I was left with a heavy feeling that there will be a significant loophole that will cause alot of problems.

That being said, this is only a chance and it could be minor, it's not near as big of a worry as the other points.

3. Stamina Builds:

Yes they are looking into them, however even if they implement the changes they mentioned without issues or bugs in the current state of the game stamina builds will still be easily inferior to magicka builds.

At least it'll be better but there are a good amount of people whose patience really is running out. I like my stamina builds, they are my favorite builds honestly, it still bothers me that I cannot build viably without magicka abilities and that won't change so long as most non-weapon skill lines are magicka based. Because they have all the utility they we need AND they use a separate resource pool.

Oh, and now we have spell crafting to make stamina builds even LESS competitive.

4. Spell Crafting:

PVE and PVP balance completely destroyed. Simple as that. PVE balance is already bad , PVP balance is still completely broken. This addition would be enough to easily break a balanced game, this one isn't even close to balanced.

PVE will still be playable and fun, don't get me wrong, but the balance is going to be even worse borked than it currently is.

5. Plans to implement a battleground.

This will kill Cyrodil populations. They are aware of that, they say they will find away to implement it where that will not happen. This is simply not possible. If you implement alternative PVP and people play it, you will lower Cyrodil populations. The better and more rewarding that alternative PVP is, the more people will leave Cyrodil. Especially because it will be instant action and balanced vs having to find it and possibly being outnumbered.

There is literally no way to implement alternative PVP without lowering the open world population, it's as simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad. Facial animation, new armor sets, dungeon scaling, veteran rank improvements, champion levels, improved character customization and specialization, combat responsiveness, werewolf buffs, solo being included in end game, weapon swapping.

These are all good things. But the points listed are major things that will break an already half broken game.

P.S. In case I actually get moderated for presenting my opinion supported by points that DO at least have SOME merit, I have copied this thread and saved it in a word file and will spread it in sites beyond just this forum and reddit. But I'd like to keep it very focused and exercise my free speech without undue censorship if at all possible. Regardless of whether you consider me right or wrong.

Hey there, see at this point I could go and do what everyone else is doing, either finding ways to try and agree with you without coming across a negative Nancy, or pan everything you say. Sorry, I am not going to do that, neither am I going to write a frelling essay. [yea that's right, FARSCAPE [snip]] I am going to say you're wrong. You're so wrong its biblical. You're wrong because this game is 3 months old [ish], and despite your "predictions based on 15 years of MMO playing" [hey look at me my MMO knowledge is so leet] you forget in that time computer technology has moved on, as has Technology in MMOs. And you also make light of the talent of the developers. They have had 3 months and in that time they have seen the good parts of their game and the bad parts, and you are panning the game based on the future they are saying is reality, when you don't actually have a frelling clue if they can do what they SAY they can. I say this to you right here and now. You are jumping ship because you are a coward. All this, is just you trying tor rationalise it.

Personally I hope they pull it off, and the changes described by the stream go well, and the game flourishes and does really well. And makes you eat humble pie. I also hope that WHEN that happens, you are perma banned from having a new sub. No malice by the way. I just think your a tool.

Ciao.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

ItsGlaive · July 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

*snip*

On the whole you disagreed but you agreed with stamina, spell crafting, and battlegrounds...which is 3 out of 5 points. I could be wrong but that does seem somewhat contradictory. I'm not trying to be snarky mind you, just trying to understand.

Grouping is a thing that has cost our guild many members and many people who played the game have quit because of. This was of course exacerbated by veteran content problems as well as Cyrodil continually breaking. This on top of all the bad press they got in beta and at release. I'll be the first to say that alot of that bad press was total BS as they vilified the game for things they conveniently ignored about many other MMORPG's.

The Justice system is kind of in a grey area as for as logical support, just as you say. A combination of knowing how that sort of thing can fail, their effectiveness in this game to date, and personal instinct.

They definitely lost alot more people than they should have in the first 3 months. MMORPG retention rates are normally stellar anyways but this was worse than normal by quite a bit.

On the whole I disagree that the game is doomed - I think it's got quite a bright future given what we've seen

Audigy · July 2014

Well you'd both be wrong. Adding Battlegrounds for the lower levels in DAoC didn't kill PvP. It gave people PVP in areas that they weren't massively out gunned by higher level players. It increased the amount of PvP in that game! Sure, Cyrodil will loose a few, and I mean very few, low level players, but the new BG's will fill with players more willing to face other players who aren't God's compared to themselves!

This is true, the DAOC system was in my opinion wonderful.

We could join those little Battle zones from level 10 if I recall right and those zones in itself were tiny "world pvp zones" so to speak. Players were in a 4 level range to each other and they could gear and level up there.
You could do pve by killing swap frogs or witches or you could pvp by killing players - it was great fun and I wouldn't mind something similar at ESO.

Once a player reaches 50, it would be good to have similar brackets based on Cyrodil.

What I honestly don't want to see at ESO is a system like WOW or SWTOR have. There you can only do pvp for honest rewards if you join a fixed group of players, that's just not really casual friendly I guess.

A 1v1 I would always support, but anything else is a bit tricky on max level if it hands out the best rewards.

Kayira · July 2014

So you are telling me that you really like the game but 1. think it is doomed 2. want to spread your negativity to other forums to make other potential players not buy the game. You sir sound like a great supporter.
How about giving zos the chance to throw the content out before you run around telling everyone that the game is doomed and our opinion is wrong.

Also i felt somehow threatened by your:

In case I actually get moderated for presenting my opinion supported by points that DO at least have SOME merit, I have copied this thread and saved it in a word file and will spread it in sites beyond just this forum and reddit. But I'd like to keep it very focused and exercise my free speech without undue censorship if at all possible. Regardless of whether you consider me right or wrong.

I mean do you seriously think i am taking your opinion so seriously that i would be offended and report you?

isengrimb16_ESO · July 2014

kimboh wrote: »

Thought this was going to be about Doom 4.

Same. I used to love ramboing and godmoding Doom 1 2 and 3 (as well as the Heretic games, where are they?) just to dig on the increasingly nasty backgrounds. Doom 1 or 2 (can't remember which) over the phone with my bf at the time was fun, too.

My biggest qualms have to do with the justice system, and seeing that they apply to "crates". As one who likes to be a self-sufficient provisioner, I have some serious doubts about being able to stay out of the "world pvp' garbage crap/having to gimp myself to avoid people ganking me.

If I want PvP, I can go to Cyrodiil. I don't want to have to worry about butthole surfers wanting to jump on me for accidentally grabbing a bunch of grapes.

Ralathar44 · July 2014

This is a great response.

Kayira wrote: »

So you are telling me that you really like the game but 1. think it is doomed 2. want to spread your negativity to other forums to make other potential players not buy the game. You sir sound like a great supporter.

I don't believe that lying or selectively telling the truth is how you support a game. This is exactly what I responded to one person on reddit who was interested in the game:

he PVE has alot to enjoy, the shadow and lighting effects are the best I've seen in any MMORPG and indeed are better than 90% of FPS games. The story is ambient, immerse, and well done throughout. Exploration rewards you poking your nose everywhere. Morphing is a great leveling mechanic. Dungeons are difficult and fun.

It really is worth a ride. I personally don't have performance issues luckily, though the crash bug seems to get everyone once every 4-6 hours.

I wouldn't hold your breath for PVP though. Play ESO for the PVE. The PVP has had continuous problems and has been rather imbalanced class wise for a good long while. Spell crafting is only going to make that worse.

That being said exploring the PVP content in Cyrodil is very enjoyable. If the game runs better for you I'd whole heartedly recommend you spend a couple months enjoying the PVE content. But I don't think this game will have what it takes to keep you, or the majority of it's subscriptions, in the long run.

Quakecon reveals were the pivotal point on that. The changes they are going to be putting in will buy them a little time, but population will drop quite a bit by mid next year. By years end if things go on the worser side.

Playing the second half of this year is likely your best chance to get a quality experience provided your performance issues are fixed. I couldn't tell you if they will be for you or not considering everyone's PC handles it differently.

I'm not a hater .

And so far as:

Kayira wrote: »

Also i felt somehow threatened by your: *snip*
I mean do you seriously think i am taking your opinion so seriously that i would be offended and report you?

I'm sorry you made yourself the center of that comment?

Kayira · July 2014

Rala i was simply talking about this post here. How should i know what you post on reddit? I am not stalking you sorry.

All i was saying was that you say you like the game a lot. If you like a game you usually keep your hopes up and not run around telling everyone it is doomed. You are judging about things that have not been released and are subject to change. I did not say you should lie, but what you are actually doing at the moment by posting this is also not telling the truth. You are giving an opinion on unknown content so Saying it is doomed and it will be imbalanced as a matter of fact would be a lie as you have no proof and is only all based on possible content. You are spreading an opinion which is your right. But this post is very biased and does not show any love for this game. Only hate for future content. That's why i am saying it does not give a good view on the game, which is unfair towards it.

Kind sir, if i am not allowed to make myself the center of my own comment i seriously have no clue what you want. My comment is my opinion so obviously it is centered about me.

Also you said you save it as a word to spread it in case you get blocked, which only happens when players report you. That was the only reason why i got into it.

Alphashado · July 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I'm going to say right now, with a sad heart and no malice, that I predict the death of ESO. By death I mean significant decline of course, not actual servers shutting down. I've watched a great many people do this and laughed. I would have never believed I'd ever be the one prophesying doom for a game. But here I am lol. They just don't get some of the fundamentals of MMORPG's That's why they were able to do some great things with the game, but it is also why they had so many bad things and are not trying to finish killing it.

This is not based off of my personal feelings. I like this game and alot of the things it has done. ALOT. I enjoy it. I'm semi-burned out on it partially due to some of it's failings but that's not why this is here. This is here based on my understandings of MMORPG's and their mechanics that I have learned over the course of 15 years of playing and dissecting MMORPG's starting with Dark Age of Camelot and including many many others.

I watched the quake con presentation and some of the new changes are going to kill the game. But I don't expect you to really believe me, half of you are so committed to the game that you wouldn't believe me if it was on fire with you in the middle of it. But for the other half of you I'll try to explain why I think this.

Believe me or not, that is your choice. All I ask is that you stop and really think about each of these points and what they mean for the game. For you, for your friends, for your guild mates. AFTER the shiny wears off of em.

Now the really controversial part, where your initial reaction will be that these are all good things:

1. Grouping updates.

Yes, they did mention this in their presentation. However they said it would be fixed over the course of a few updates. That could be as late as early 2015 to fully fix it (if it's rolled out incrementally).

This should be their #1 priority in the game right now. It's the biggest problem that is costing the game population and it needs to be fixed now, within 1-2 months. There are alot of quests and code is hard, I understand that, people that cannot team with their friends ultimately don't care.

2. Justice System:

I actually think overall that this is really nice overall. However I think there is about a 1 in 3 chance that something significantly bad is going to happen because of the justice system. I'm not sure if it'll be griefing or an oversight that negatively effects the economy, but after their presentation I was left with a heavy feeling that there will be a significant loophole that will cause alot of problems.

That being said, this is only a chance and it could be minor, it's not near as big of a worry as the other points.

3. Stamina Builds:

Yes they are looking into them, however even if they implement the changes they mentioned without issues or bugs in the current state of the game stamina builds will still be easily inferior to magicka builds.

At least it'll be better but there are a good amount of people whose patience really is running out. I like my stamina builds, they are my favorite builds honestly, it still bothers me that I cannot build viably without magicka abilities and that won't change so long as most non-weapon skill lines are magicka based. Because they have all the utility they we need AND they use a separate resource pool.

Oh, and now we have spell crafting to make stamina builds even LESS competitive.

4. Spell Crafting:

PVE and PVP balance completely destroyed. Simple as that. PVE balance is already bad , PVP balance is still completely broken. This addition would be enough to easily break a balanced game, this one isn't even close to balanced.

PVE will still be playable and fun, don't get me wrong, but the balance is going to be even worse borked than it currently is.

5. Plans to implement a battleground.

This will kill Cyrodil populations. They are aware of that, they say they will find away to implement it where that will not happen. This is simply not possible. If you implement alternative PVP and people play it, you will lower Cyrodil populations. The better and more rewarding that alternative PVP is, the more people will leave Cyrodil. Especially because it will be instant action and balanced vs having to find it and possibly being outnumbered.

There is literally no way to implement alternative PVP without lowering the open world population, it's as simple as that.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad. Facial animation, new armor sets, dungeon scaling, veteran rank improvements, champion levels, improved character customization and specialization, combat responsiveness, werewolf buffs, solo being included in end game, weapon swapping.

These are all good things. But the points listed are major things that will break an already half broken game.

P.S. In case I actually get moderated for presenting my opinion supported by points that DO at least have SOME merit, I have copied this thread and saved it in a word file and will spread it in sites beyond just this forum and reddit. But I'd like to keep it very focused and exercise my free speech without undue censorship if at all possible. Regardless of whether you consider me right or wrong.

I couldn't disagree more.

Yes they very clearly didn't understand the MMORPG customer, But they are learning and adapting.

Cyrodiil will be just fine, Having an alternative will actually bring more PvPers into the game.

You said you have been playing MMOs for 15 years. I have been playing them for 20+ years. Almost all of the things I have been concerned about are getting addressed either now or in the very short term future.

Here is the main reason I disagree with you though: They have a gigantic budget supported by a very wealthy franchise that takes pride in it's name and reputation. They are willing and able to continuously throw large amounts of money at this game in order to make changes and they listen to the community. Even those that get ridiculously bent out of shape over a dog.

Murmeltier · July 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I'm not unreasonable, I just hold a different pont of view. I'd really prefer if you treated me with a little more respect, as I'm doing for you right now, but I understand if you are unable to do so. I am after all challenging something that you believe in and that provokes a strong reaction.

If you are a veteran at MMORPG's you'll understand that most players don't know alot of things. Especially if you are a PVP player. Even the more experienced players. For instance the amount of people who bought this game thinking it was going to be Skyrim was STAGGERING.

Now this kind of statement is where you finally break through into fanboy territory. You don't know that every patch will make this game better, in fact their track record currently is very much against that.

The problem here is not that you are arguing for the game, it's that you stopped arguing for the game with points and arguments and started arguing for it with pure feeling. Having those positive feelings about the game is not a bad thing, but they do not make good arguments.

I choose this 4 Blocks and try to answer them.

1.I don`t treat you respectless, i say my Opininion like you do. Maybe you can`t see this or reflect yourself but don`t try to make this more negative then it is.
And please, no more *Doctor Freud* Answers ala: maybe you are unable to do so, this is not very friendly too. You act with the same Manners and use only another Cover.

2. I don`t think you are right if you say the most Players don`t know a lot of Things. You try to manipulate again, i explain this. You say, if you are a Veteran at MMORPGs you will understand, so if i say no i don`t think so, i am no Veteran at MMORPGs? That is one of the Situations with another Example that i described before.

3. I know that every Patch at the End make this Game better and offers more Options Ingame. For sure, not every Patch works at 100% at the Start but at the End they run. The Game runs smooth for me, so how can you say that i am a Fanboy because i think this? Very Emotional.

I`d really prefer if you treated me with a little more Respect, as i am doing for you right now, but i understand if you are unable to do so. I am after all challennging something that you believe in and that provokes a strong Reaction. I hope you understand this

.

4. The Problem here is not that you arguing against this Game, it`s that you stopped arguing against this Game with Points and Arguments and started arguing for it with pure Feeling. Having those negatives Feelings about the Game is not a bad Thing but they do not make good Arguments. The same here, i hope you understand this

.

In Shortform, you say if you agree than you are on the right Side People and if not you are Fanboys. I dont see many Numbers or Facts you offering more your personal Sight of Things.

For the last, i can`t believe that i offer so much Time for nothing. My Opinion is that you try to troll a little bit in here. Now without me, than as a Veteran of MMORPGs i know that this *I am right and you are not* Thing can go forever and it is a waste of Time. I don`t want to push you, believe what you want, or as we Germans says: Der Klügere gibt nach

.

Ralathar44 · July 2014

Kayira wrote: »

Rala i was simply talking about this post here. How should i know what you post on reddit? I am not stalking you sorry.

I know, I was just giving a counter-example of me praising the game today. I could go back to youtube videos as well of course, like Angry Joe as he hated the game, loved the game, hated the game (while still playing it and recruiting...).

All i was saying was that you say you like the game a lot. If you like a game you usually keep your hopes up and not run around telling everyone it is doomed.

That's like saying that you should back up your friend even if they are out of line and doing stuff they shouldn't be doing. As their friend you should be the first to smack them upside the head and tell them to stop being an ***hat if they go too far.

It's important to differentiate between supporting something and enabling something. To tell the difference between the two you have to try and be able to step back and take a more neutral and less biased look at things. Then you act accordingly aiming for the best interest of the game/your friend by giving them advice they can choose to take or not...or to learn from or not.

As well by playing the foil to the majority of the forum goers here in this conversation it gets discussion going to where there are a variety of opinions and minds exploring the situation. Even if we don't all agree hopefully at the end of the day we all end up slightly enrinched for challenging our minds with the discussions and the opposing viewpoints.

You are judging about things that have not been released and are subject to change.

As a developer you are pretty much locked in once you say "we are going to do this". Because if you don't do it the community tars and feathers you. This is part of the reason we have lost alot of the transparency in game studios. They cannot afford to tell us things that are not definitive. Because any change after telling us is a major controversy.

I did not say you should lie, but what you are actually doing at the moment by posting this is also not telling the truth. You are giving an opinion on unknown content so Saying it is doomed and it will be imbalanced as a matter of fact would be a lie as you have no proof and is only all based on possible content. You are spreading an opinion which is your right. But this post is very biased and does not show any love for this game. Only hate for future content. That's why i am saying it does not give a good view on the game, which is unfair towards it.

There are a variety of people giving their opinions on these very subjects right now, inducing people in this thread. The lines you are drawing right now invalidate most of these forums. This includes your comments in a Champion Points thread where you speak negatively of the system, a spell crafting thread where you speak negatively of the system , and a thread where you speculate when future content will be released.

I apologize but because you decided to take this tact of argument I did take a moment to verify that you were not also engaging in the very things you were calling out as you just now made it relevant. Unfortunately you failed that test.

Remember, for the average person someone being biased is "they don't share the same view I do". Granted everyone is biased to some degree, and everyone faces confirmation bias, but I actually like the game. My bias, such as exists, would actually be towards the game.

Side Note: I really wish debate class was mandatory. The single most valuable thing they do in that class is choose something you really believe in and then make you research and argue against it for a grade. It's a life changing experience and after a good round of research it's not uncommon to come back with your views shaken or even changed.

As far as giving a game a bad view vs a good view. Neither good view nor bad view is inherently unfair. Both considerations are dependent on the reality of the situation and indeed it's entirely possible for both to be true at once.

Ralathar44 · July 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Here is the main reason I disagree with you though: They have a gigantic budget supported by a very wealthy franchise that takes pride in it's name and reputation. They are willing and able to continuously throw large amounts of money at this game in order to make changes and they listen to the community.

So did SWTOR.

Kayira · July 2014

Rala, I feel honored that you have looked at my comment history.
I am not going to argue with you because there are more important things in my life. I never said I am telling the truth in the champion or spellcrafting thread. I only told the forum of my worry for specific bits.

I just realised I am again starting to tell you my opinion again and trying to explain myself towards you agaon so I will just stop and leave it as that.

Lastly:

For the last, i can`t believe that i offer so much Time for nothing. My Opinion is that you try to troll a little bit in here. Now without me, than as a Veteran of MMORPGs i know that this *I am right and you are not* Thing can go forever and it is a waste of Time. I don`t want to push you, believe what you want, or as we Germans says: Der Klügere gibt nach .

Totally signed and end of my time in this thread.