AE cap issue ignored for 2 months now

HazardousNovex · July 2014

Poxheart wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

You can already kill Impulse spamming groups just fine. The problem isn't really the group spamming the AoE's, it's the people that time and time again get facerolled by these groups and instead of altering their tactics, they head to the forums and demand changes.

Still waiting for you to share your secret tactics for "[killing] impulse spamming groups just fine."

Good healers.

FENGRUSH · July 2014

None of these guys in favor of the AOE cap are fighting balls of 50+ with 6 and winning outside of a keep. Its more likely they are part of the 20+ groups that are actually doing these ball groups.

yelloweyedemon · July 2014

++

AE cap needs to go! It only encourages bad playstyle (aka zerg babies). Not sure what else needs to be said by players.

People are dropping subs daily because AE caps made Cyrodiil a zerg fest.

shanersimms_ESO · July 2014

I agree. Much has been said about this without any response from ZoS. The AOE cap ruins any sort of truly tactical PvP. They are sacrificing dynamic PvP for a system that caters to the zerg ball pain train.

Morvul · July 2014

AoE caps make it so, that when the enemy throws AoEs at your Raid, the best response is: "let's all clump up together as tight as possible!"

in a none AoE-caps game, the best respone would be: "spread out!"

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

Morvul wrote: »

AoE caps make it so, that when the enemy throws AoEs at your Raid, the best response is: "let's all clump up together as tight as possible!"

in a none AoE-caps game, the best respone would be: "spread out!"

Wouldn't the best response in both situations be to spread out? Players clump together now and they melt like butter. That ain't working very well. Hope Dev does remove the cap but the majority are still going to complain. Any guild coordinated enough will bring out these complaints no matter which way this coin flip lands. Just my .02

Teargrants · July 2014

No, stacking into the aoe with their 20+ people means only 6 of them will get hit, the rest take 0 dmg. That's pathetically easy for their healers to heal through.

Spreading out makes them vulnerable because then everyone inside any given aoe will be hit, which means more strain on their healers - greater number of people taking dmg + greater distance to cover.

The groups that 'melt like butter' when they stack up are just pugs trying to imitate the cheese wheel but failing because of lack of voice com & lack of healers. Also, organized groups of 10-15, because they don't have the numbers to benefit optimally from the cap.

Halrloprillalar · July 2014

Personally I love it when my enemy stacks up super tight

SBR_QuorTek · July 2014

Add the AOE cap to AOE heals as well?

Teargrants · July 2014

The thing is, heals will auto target the lowest HP people, aoe attacks just hit a random 6 people in the blob.

TheBucket · July 2014

I think it works really well as is now. People can bunch up if they want but that doesn't stop them from dying any slower with good group coordination

Morvul · July 2014

quakedawg_ESO wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

AoE caps make it so, that when the enemy throws AoEs at your Raid, the best response is: "let's all clump up together as tight as possible!"

in a none AoE-caps game, the best respone would be: "spread out!"

Wouldn't the best response in both situations be to spread out? Players clump together now and they melt like butter. That ain't working very well. Hope Dev does remove the cap but the majority are still going to complain. Any guild coordinated enough will bring out these complaints no matter which way this coin flip lands. Just my .02

the only "clumped and still melting" groups are those with no or incompetent healers.
Clumping up makes keeping a large group alive extreeeeemely easy if said group has even a mediocre of coordination.
Reason: every AoE damage hits 6 random doods, but the heals will always hit the ones who need them

Aeradon · July 2014

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Personally I love it when my enemy stacks up super tight

^ This.

Negate the [snip] out of them.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Nijjion · July 2014

Just have to wait for Camelot Unchained as lost all hope in Zenimax... ESO is a lost cause now pretty much.

@Lava_Croft Dumbing down the game is the biggest problem... calling it the CoD effect... make the game so easy and people think they are skilled when they are not. A game should be designed so you can excel with skill that's what's great about the medium that no other does. Target cap just totally destroys this and makes it harder for everyone if it was taken out.

Lowbei · July 2014

for pvp players, im pretty sure the target cap is what killed this games potential.

whats sad is that not only did the players not want it, but zos gave zero explanation behind implementing it, despite a massive uproar from the players.

FENGRUSH · July 2014

Lowbei wrote: »

for pvp players, im pretty sure the target cap is what killed this games potential.

whats sad is that not only did the players not want it, but zos gave zero explanation behind implementing it, despite a massive uproar from the players.

Very true.

@zos_brianwheeler is absent on issues that matter.

Antirob · July 2014

You guys honestly think getting rid of the aoe cap will help. It would make zerg balling even more viable.

Krinaman · July 2014

If I am understanding the complaint here:

- A large group of players attacks a small group of players and the large group wins.
- Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group

Does that about sum it up? Because it seems to me that the large group should win.

FENGRUSH · July 2014

Krinaman wrote: »

it seems to me that the large group should win.

Thats pretty much the concept in mind the developers are building around right now.

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

I'll take the odds against a much larger group now and if the cap is removed. 8 of the right people on the same page ....nom nom nom!

Lowbei · July 2014

skilled groups with aoes keep zergs in check

now we have a numbers game which nobody enjoys.

deja vu from gw2?

Mojomonkeyman · July 2014

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

for pvp players, im pretty sure the target cap is what killed this games potential.

whats sad is that not only did the players not want it, but zos gave zero explanation behind implementing it, despite a massive uproar from the players.

Very true.

@zos_brianwheeler is absent on issues that matter.

Not only on that matter, he basically refuses to give information ,updates or such on any issue besides "The Road Ahead" (which is probably his superiors forcing him to do).

I honestly thought, after just experiencing the blizzard starcraft pvp dev teams 1 & 2, that the gw2 team was really bad, unresponsive and not passionate (both f2p).

I know better now, Brian gets the crown. I don`t even know if there is any dedicated PvP developer besides Brian at all, after 4 month into the game.

I expected more, for a subscription based game, tbh. Like regular State of the game stuff with pvp devs participating in it, discussing balance and stuff, taking part in forum discussions. Show they care for their baby.

I was wrong.

Gecko · July 2014

Krinaman wrote: »

If I am understanding the complaint here:

- A large group of players attacks a small group of players and the large group wins.
- Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group

Does that about sum it up? Because it seems to me that the large group should win.

For example. Large group of players goes through a canyon, getting drawn in by people they are chasing. People on the canyon walls unstealth, open up damage on the larger group.

Results:

With current aoe caps, ambush is useless, very few people die because the damage is randomly split among the large ball of people and there is no real reliable way to focus fire a giant zerg ball in a non lock on game (the lock on does not seem to work very well for this).

Without the aoe caps, the large group is usually killed or numbers brought way down. The smaller group prevails because of tactics.

In an open field, the larger group would still have the numbers advantage, tactics could still play a part, but the numbers would still prevail because they could break apart if they started getting hammered by aoes.

Currently, the best strategy is to all stand on top of each other in order to split the damage up and stack shields and heals to absorb that insignificant split damage. A smaller group should be able to use tactics and terrain to attempt to take out a larger group and it should be a viable way to discourage flat tactic less zerg warfare of just throwing numbers at an enemy. That is not the case with ESO. That is what made DAoC so great when it came to the mass pvp and what many had hoped/still hope for with this game, given the background of some of the game designers.

quakedawg_ESO · July 2014

Gecko wrote: »

For example. Large group of players goes through a canyon, getting drawn in by people they are chasing. People on the canyon walls unstealth, open up damage on the larger group.

Results:

With current aoe caps, ambush is useless, very few people die because the damage is randomly split among the large ball of people and there is no real reliable way to focus fire a giant zerg ball in a non lock on game (the lock on does not seem to work very well for this).

I don't think I've experienced a single evening of AvA where this exact scenario didn't happen with the current cap. Not counting the solo DK Emperors, I've seen it done with less than 8 players but I've only personally experienced with 8-16 peeps. Stealth attacks, maneuvering, using the terrain, etc. It's surprisingly easy to take down 30-50 man groups this way. Some you gotta whittle them down slowly and it takes a while (even longer if they have a camp up) but it's doable and fun at the same time! Bonus!

Lowbei · July 2014

the point went so far over some peoples heads, its staggering.

Teargrants · July 2014

Critical thinking is hard!

All the people claiming that removing aoe cap makes blob stackers stronger/harder to kill need to rethink their logic.

It just means that aoe will hit more than 6 people. Now please think, in what non-zerg ball will more than 6 people ever be in the radius of 1 aoe, and not be able to simply spread while maintaining their tactical efficiency?

Lack of aoe cap isn't going to make the blob stackers' cheesewheel able to kill anyone faster except another cheesewheel. And you will never see the stupid blob vs blob meta dominating group pvp as you do now. Why? Because when one blob encounters another, the winner will be the one that spreads first, and uses tactics via positioning bomb the other blob.

Columba · July 2014

I loved Daoc, but simply because Daoc had no aoe caps doesn't mean that this is automatically the best design decision either. No aoe capped cc caused other problems in DAOC that I'd rather not see here. The unintended consequences in LOLHammer were disastrous. If the problem to solve is to give small, coordinated a fighting chance, then there are other options.

Raise the aoe cap before making a massive change by removing them. Test and learn.

Morvul · July 2014

Let's add another perspektive to the AoE cap issue again:
in PvE, it's pretty much all about learning "don't stand in the fire" (no huuuuuuuge PvE groups --> AoE caps never really come into play)

however, in PvP its "don't stand in the fire, unless 50 other dudes stand in the fire with you - because then it's perfectly fine to sit down in the fire"

we can therefore conclude: AoE caps are stupid

Krinaman · July 2014

Gecko wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

If I am understanding the complaint here:

- A large group of players attacks a small group of players and the large group wins.
- Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group

Does that about sum it up? Because it seems to me that the large group should win.

For example. Large group of players goes through a canyon, getting drawn in by people they are chasing. People on the canyon walls unstealth, open up damage on the larger group.

Results:

With current aoe caps, ambush is useless, very few people die because the damage is randomly split among the large ball of people and there is no real reliable way to focus fire a giant zerg ball in a non lock on game (the lock on does not seem to work very well for this).

Without the aoe caps, the large group is usually killed or numbers brought way down. The smaller group prevails because of tactics.

In an open field, the larger group would still have the numbers advantage, tactics could still play a part, but the numbers would still prevail because they could break apart if they started getting hammered by aoes.

Currently, the best strategy is to all stand on top of each other in order to split the damage up and stack shields and heals to absorb that insignificant split damage. A smaller group should be able to use tactics and terrain to attempt to take out a larger group and it should be a viable way to discourage flat tactic less zerg warfare of just throwing numbers at an enemy. That is not the case with ESO. That is what made DAoC so great when it came to the mass pvp and what many had hoped/still hope for with this game, given the background of some of the game designers.

You just gave a long example that basically was "Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group"

Considering capping anything requires standing on a choke point, no AOE caps will simply result in it being impossible to take any defended location.

FENGRUSH · July 2014

Krinaman wrote: »

Gecko wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

If I am understanding the complaint here:

- A large group of players attacks a small group of players and the large group wins.
- Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group

Does that about sum it up? Because it seems to me that the large group should win.

For example. Large group of players goes through a canyon, getting drawn in by people they are chasing. People on the canyon walls unstealth, open up damage on the larger group.

Results:

With current aoe caps, ambush is useless, very few people die because the damage is randomly split among the large ball of people and there is no real reliable way to focus fire a giant zerg ball in a non lock on game (the lock on does not seem to work very well for this).

Without the aoe caps, the large group is usually killed or numbers brought way down. The smaller group prevails because of tactics.

In an open field, the larger group would still have the numbers advantage, tactics could still play a part, but the numbers would still prevail because they could break apart if they started getting hammered by aoes.

Currently, the best strategy is to all stand on top of each other in order to split the damage up and stack shields and heals to absorb that insignificant split damage. A smaller group should be able to use tactics and terrain to attempt to take out a larger group and it should be a viable way to discourage flat tactic less zerg warfare of just throwing numbers at an enemy. That is not the case with ESO. That is what made DAoC so great when it came to the mass pvp and what many had hoped/still hope for with this game, given the background of some of the game designers.

You just gave a long example that basically was "Small group is mad and wants buffs so they can beat the large group"

Considering capping anything requires standing on a choke point, no AOE caps will simply result in it being impossible to take any defended location.

The alternative of throwing 70 people at a flag and flooding out heals to cap it through brute force seems like a better route to go.