New night's silence set = NB's form of BE

Awdwyn · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

Awdwyn wrote: »

fredthementenrb18_ESO wrote: »

any class can use this set. any class can be a vampire.
when nb use shadow cloak they become invisible, not stealth. the speed while invisible is not the same as the speed while stealth. so this set apllies to stealth, not invisible. you wont get this speed bonus when use shadowcloak

I have noticed this. I'm a nightblade vamp with concealed weapon and the vamp stealth speed bonus. When I sneak in to start combat my speed is somewhere between a normal walk and sprint. When I get in over my head and need to boogie outta there using cloak, my movement speed is still faster then a normal run, but not as fast as stealthed. I'm guessing without conclusive tests that the vamp bonus applies, but concealed weapon doesn't in that case.

If somebody has tested this and has actual times or anything I'd be interested to hear their results to see if my feels are on the mark.

Also. Having weapons drawn slows down movement speed whether invisible or not. When running away, sheathe your weapons and you can give yourself an edge.

EDIT: mobile typing sucks.

I did a whole bunch of testing with movement speeds in sneak yesterday (note, this obviously does not include Night's Silence)
Testing with stop watch and traveling between two points:

Regular walking speed: 26 seconds

Sprint speed (no medium armour equipped) : 20 seconds

Sprint speed (7 pieces medium armour equipped): 15 seconds

Shadow Cloak (repeatedly casting) with no Concealed Weapon bonus: 26 seconds

Shadow Cloak (repeatedly casting) with Concealed Weapon bonus: 21 seconds

Sneak (level 10 vampire) with no Concealed Weapon bonus: 26 seconds

Sneak (level 10 vampire) with Concealed Weapon bonus: 21 seconds

Concealed Weapon + Shadow Cloak works fine for me.

I also went just now and tested sneak speed with weapons out and with weapons sheathed.
Both came up with 21 seconds; weapons have no impact on move speed.

I intend to test Night's Silence with and without vampire (I will cure myself after 1.3 to make the test) once the update goes live. I'll be glad to compare it with these numbers at that time.

Thank you! That's very interesting... I wonder if the feeling of movement speed difference between weapons drawn vs sheathed is an illusion based on the arm movement then.

inf.toniceb17_ESO · July 2014

OP you should remember the price of such a buff to stealth speed:
1) Weakness to fire. While it can be fully avoided by being dark elf with fire resist ring, there are still better enchantments for a ring than fire resist and not everyone is a dark elf (also not the best choice for a nightblade imo).
2) Slow HP regen. Not critical but sometimes it is noticable.
3) You have to use concealed weapon instead of surprise attack so you dont have 40% armor debuff on hit.
4) You will have to use all 5 pieces of the set to get speed boost so you wont get any other 5 pcs boosts and there are way better options like Hunding's rage for example.

Personally i think i'll stick to concealed weapon+vamp boost. Extra 60% stealth speed on top of it is tempting but as i said there are better options.

LunaRae · July 2014

I honestly never noticed a difference sneaking with concealed weapon, only when using shadowy disguise/dark cloak. That being said I'm surprised no one uses retreating maneuver for an additional 33% MS. You talk about being fast as a vampire sneaking w/ concealed, I assure you with RM I am faster, by 33%. Looking forward to a ridiculous 60% buff, enjoy it while you can cause it won't last. And don't make the mistake of building your legendary set around it.

Samadhi · July 2014

LunaRae wrote: »

I honestly never noticed a difference sneaking with concealed weapon, only when using shadowy disguise/dark cloak. That being said I'm surprised no one uses retreating maneuver for an additional 33% MS. You talk about being fast as a vampire sneaking w/ concealed, I assure you with RM I am faster, by 33%. Looking forward to a ridiculous 60% buff, enjoy it while you can cause it won't last. And don't make the mistake of building your legendary set around it.

Back a week or two ago (before I went vampire) I tested Concealed Weapon as a regular Nightblade as well:

Normal sneak speed: 43 seconds

3 piece Night's Silence ("220% sneak speed"): 42.5 seconds

Non-equiped, but Concealed Weapon (25% stealthed move speed) slotted: 36.5 seconds

5 piece Shadow Dancer's Raiment (no stealth move penalty): 25 Seconds

*Note* the Night's Silence test in this spoiler was me testing the current bugged version, not the new version

Concealed Weapon works while sneaking as a non-vampire, but the increase is minor.
On vampire the 25% increase is more noticeable because entering sneak actually makes me move faster than when I am not sneaking -- I sneak everywhere because it is almost as fast as sprinting but has less stamina cost. As vampire it becomes 125% of regular move speed.

reften · July 2014

quick correction - the sneak speed bonus is the 3 item bonus not the 5 item bonus for the Night's Silence set...unless someone sees notes that are different?

Sharee · July 2014

oren74 wrote: »

quick correction - the sneak speed bonus is the 3 item bonus not the 5 item bonus for the Night's Silence set...unless someone sees notes that are different?

The old is 3 set. The new is 5 set.

http://i.imgur.com/BWxp4bq.png

Kewljag_66_ESO · July 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

Firstly i want to say i am a NB, that is my main character and i do plan to take full advantage of this new set however i dont want to see cloak get nerfed the way bolt escape did or for me to waste all my mats on this set to have it changed to something useless.

The new set will give 60% movement speed in stealth when you got 5 pieces. Now you couple that with concealed weapon (25%) and the vampire passive (remove speed penalty in stealth) and what do you have? Insane speed.

I run conc. wep and vampire passive and as it stands i can move in a sprint in stealth (im sure most of you know about this). When i have someone cast rapid maneuvers, i run as fast as horses (obviously depends on the horse but i have caught people like this). Rapid is only a 20% buff (30% is its morphed), so i can only imagine what another 30-40% speed will do. You can also get the mundus which gives you movement speed for even more. All in all you can get about 95% speed (judging that the mundus is 10% speed) in stealth without rapid maneuvers .

Now the real problem starts when you catch someone with this insane speed. If the fight doesnt go your way and they arent running magelight / detect pots, 1 cloak duration with this speed will probably double the distance if not more of a single bolt escape and your totally invisible. Cloak can be cast up to like 6 times at least with full magicka + 1 pot if you dont have light armour.

This new nights silence set is cool in theory but i think it needs a nerf before it even goes live. A 25/30% speed boost imo is more then enough. It lets non NBs hit our speeds but still lets NBs dominate stealth movement.

So yeh, i dont want them to nerf cloak in a couple weeks when every NB is flying across maps.

Thank you for reading, hopefully ZOS reads this.

Id just like to point out this set is for anyclass. And anyclass can be a vampire and have both those speed bonuses togeather. the only thing the NB gains is 25% more speed from Concealled Weapon and the NB has to choose that morph and sacrafice the armor debuff from Suprise Attack. Most NBs i know use Suprise Attack because it not only does way more damage as a sneak attack but it also debuffs for other attacks.

Also not every NB is a vamp. I know alot of NBs who dont want to be a vamp because of FIghters Guild weaknesses BUT only do it for the sneak speed. With this set bonuses giving 60% they wont have to be a vamp anymore to move at a decent speed and most will drop vamp.

Now lets look at the set. To get that bonus you have to go 5 pieces. which makes it so you cannot have the big 5th bonus from any other set. You are scaraficing set bonus damage or what not to have this sneak speed.

So again everyone can have most of this speed bonus, only the NB can be 25% faster which is nothing too signifigant. And to have all 3 bonuses you are making big sacrafices to other things includsing your damage output.

I plan on using this set and just having the 60% bonus. I do not want the weakness from being a vampire, and i choose Suprise Attack over Concealed Weapon

reften · July 2014

Sharee wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

quick correction - the sneak speed bonus is the 3 item bonus not the 5 item bonus for the Night's Silence set...unless someone sees notes that are different?

The old is 3 set. The new is 5 set.

http://i.imgur.com/BWxp4bq.png

wonderful...glad I just crafted a complete set of 9 items to a pre-VR12 build.

When is this all going live?

Saet · July 2014

I will probably drop vampire as well with this set. Unfortunately its really hard to test this on the pts because the premade builds dont get any skills in crafting to work with. I'm starting some research on my pts toons to try and get enough learned to make the set to test it out. Will also try and become a vampire.

Sharee · July 2014

oren74 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

quick correction - the sneak speed bonus is the 3 item bonus not the 5 item bonus for the Night's Silence set...unless someone sees notes that are different?

The old is 3 set. The new is 5 set.

http://i.imgur.com/BWxp4bq.png

wonderful...glad I just crafted a complete set of 9 items to a pre-VR12 build.

When is this all going live?

With update 3. Early august.

Hypertionb14_ESO · July 2014

i just made a nights silence set for my newist character... tried it but it didnt work at all..

Awdwyn · July 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i just made a nights silence set for my newist character... tried it but it didnt work at all..

Correct. The current set is bugged and does not work. In a few weeks it'll change to 60% speed with the 5 piece set and (hopefully) work as intended.

Soloeus · July 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

Firstly i want to say i am a NB, that is my main character and i do plan to take full advantage of this new set however i dont want to see cloak get nerfed the way bolt escape did or for me to waste all my mats on this set to have it changed to something useless.

The new set will give 60% movement speed in stealth when you got 5 pieces. Now you couple that with concealed weapon (25%) and the vampire passive (remove speed penalty in stealth) and what do you have? Insane speed.

I run conc. wep and vampire passive and as it stands i can move in a sprint in stealth (im sure most of you know about this). When i have someone cast rapid maneuvers, i run as fast as horses (obviously depends on the horse but i have caught people like this). Rapid is only a 20% buff (30% is its morphed), so i can only imagine what another 30-40% speed will do. You can also get the mundus which gives you movement speed for even more. All in all you can get about 95% speed (judging that the mundus is 10% speed) in stealth without rapid maneuvers .

Now the real problem starts when you catch someone with this insane speed. If the fight doesnt go your way and they arent running magelight / detect pots, 1 cloak duration with this speed will probably double the distance if not more of a single bolt escape and your totally invisible. Cloak can be cast up to like 6 times at least with full magicka + 1 pot if you dont have light armour.

This new nights silence set is cool in theory but i think it needs a nerf before it even goes live. A 25/30% speed boost imo is more then enough. It lets non NBs hit our speeds but still lets NBs dominate stealth movement.

So yeh, i dont want them to nerf cloak in a couple weeks when every NB is flying across maps.

Thank you for reading, hopefully ZOS reads this.

NERF. I want it nerfed bad.

All you need to do is plop on all speed bonuses from all sources and nobody can ever touch you. Especially as a vampire, you can just run around invincible. Bolt Escape can be countered and none of you ever figured that out. So you called for a nerf.

Unlike you, we are justified in calling for a nerf.

Nightblade should not be nerfed. Nights Silence should be.

The other option is making speed bonuses Overlap instead of Stack. The problem isn't one or the other, its that all 3 together are too good. Nerfing one piece of the puzzle, the Equipment, is the best option.

Samadhi · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Firstly i want to say i am a NB, that is my main character and i do plan to take full advantage of this new set however i dont want to see cloak get nerfed the way bolt escape did or for me to waste all my mats on this set to have it changed to something useless.

The new set will give 60% movement speed in stealth when you got 5 pieces. Now you couple that with concealed weapon (25%) and the vampire passive (remove speed penalty in stealth) and what do you have? Insane speed.

I run conc. wep and vampire passive and as it stands i can move in a sprint in stealth (im sure most of you know about this). When i have someone cast rapid maneuvers, i run as fast as horses (obviously depends on the horse but i have caught people like this). Rapid is only a 20% buff (30% is its morphed), so i can only imagine what another 30-40% speed will do. You can also get the mundus which gives you movement speed for even more. All in all you can get about 95% speed (judging that the mundus is 10% speed) in stealth without rapid maneuvers .

Now the real problem starts when you catch someone with this insane speed. If the fight doesnt go your way and they arent running magelight / detect pots, 1 cloak duration with this speed will probably double the distance if not more of a single bolt escape and your totally invisible. Cloak can be cast up to like 6 times at least with full magicka + 1 pot if you dont have light armour.

This new nights silence set is cool in theory but i think it needs a nerf before it even goes live. A 25/30% speed boost imo is more then enough. It lets non NBs hit our speeds but still lets NBs dominate stealth movement.

So yeh, i dont want them to nerf cloak in a couple weeks when every NB is flying across maps.

Thank you for reading, hopefully ZOS reads this.

NERF. I want it nerfed bad.

All you need to do is plop on all speed bonuses from all sources and nobody can ever touch you. Especially as a vampire, you can just run around invincible. Bolt Escape can be countered and none of you ever figured that out. So you called for a nerf.

Unlike you, we are justified in calling for a nerf. You are crouching around faster than we can run.

This sounds like the informed opinion of someone who has gone on the PTS and tested the set already.
Could you provide the stopwatch numbers of your travel times during testing so we can figure out how exactly this set's bonus is stacking?

If it does indeed stack with the Vampire passive, then I can fully agree that either Vampire or the Night's Silence set will be in dramatic need of a nerf.

FunkyBudda · July 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Firstly i want to say i am a NB, that is my main character and i do plan to take full advantage of this new set however i dont want to see cloak get nerfed the way bolt escape did or for me to waste all my mats on this set to have it changed to something useless.

The new set will give 60% movement speed in stealth when you got 5 pieces. Now you couple that with concealed weapon (25%) and the vampire passive (remove speed penalty in stealth) and what do you have? Insane speed.

I run conc. wep and vampire passive and as it stands i can move in a sprint in stealth (im sure most of you know about this). When i have someone cast rapid maneuvers, i run as fast as horses (obviously depends on the horse but i have caught people like this). Rapid is only a 20% buff (30% is its morphed), so i can only imagine what another 30-40% speed will do. You can also get the mundus which gives you movement speed for even more. All in all you can get about 95% speed (judging that the mundus is 10% speed) in stealth without rapid maneuvers .

Now the real problem starts when you catch someone with this insane speed. If the fight doesnt go your way and they arent running magelight / detect pots, 1 cloak duration with this speed will probably double the distance if not more of a single bolt escape and your totally invisible. Cloak can be cast up to like 6 times at least with full magicka + 1 pot if you dont have light armour.

This new nights silence set is cool in theory but i think it needs a nerf before it even goes live. A 25/30% speed boost imo is more then enough. It lets non NBs hit our speeds but still lets NBs dominate stealth movement.

So yeh, i dont want them to nerf cloak in a couple weeks when every NB is flying across maps.

Thank you for reading, hopefully ZOS reads this.

NERF. I want it nerfed bad.

All you need to do is plop on all speed bonuses from all sources and nobody can ever touch you. Especially as a vampire, you can just run around invincible. Bolt Escape can be countered and none of you ever figured that out. So you called for a nerf.

Unlike you, we are justified in calling for a nerf.

Nightblade should not be nerfed. Nights Silence should be.

The other option is making speed bonuses Overlap instead of Stack. The problem isn't one or the other, its that all 3 together are too good. Nerfing one piece of the puzzle, the Equipment, is the best option.

I disagree, since NBs cried and whined for buffs, then bitched and moaned for nerfs (BE for Sorcs and other skills for DKs), they need to get a taste of their own medicine. ZoS, please nerf NBs.

Samadhi · July 2014

FunkyBudda wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

aco5712 wrote: »

Firstly i want to say i am a NB, that is my main character and i do plan to take full advantage of this new set however i dont want to see cloak get nerfed the way bolt escape did or for me to waste all my mats on this set to have it changed to something useless.

The new set will give 60% movement speed in stealth when you got 5 pieces. Now you couple that with concealed weapon (25%) and the vampire passive (remove speed penalty in stealth) and what do you have? Insane speed.

I run conc. wep and vampire passive and as it stands i can move in a sprint in stealth (im sure most of you know about this). When i have someone cast rapid maneuvers, i run as fast as horses (obviously depends on the horse but i have caught people like this). Rapid is only a 20% buff (30% is its morphed), so i can only imagine what another 30-40% speed will do. You can also get the mundus which gives you movement speed for even more. All in all you can get about 95% speed (judging that the mundus is 10% speed) in stealth without rapid maneuvers .

Now the real problem starts when you catch someone with this insane speed. If the fight doesnt go your way and they arent running magelight / detect pots, 1 cloak duration with this speed will probably double the distance if not more of a single bolt escape and your totally invisible. Cloak can be cast up to like 6 times at least with full magicka + 1 pot if you dont have light armour.

This new nights silence set is cool in theory but i think it needs a nerf before it even goes live. A 25/30% speed boost imo is more then enough. It lets non NBs hit our speeds but still lets NBs dominate stealth movement.

So yeh, i dont want them to nerf cloak in a couple weeks when every NB is flying across maps.

Thank you for reading, hopefully ZOS reads this.

NERF. I want it nerfed bad.

All you need to do is plop on all speed bonuses from all sources and nobody can ever touch you. Especially as a vampire, you can just run around invincible. Bolt Escape can be countered and none of you ever figured that out. So you called for a nerf.

Unlike you, we are justified in calling for a nerf.

Nightblade should not be nerfed. Nights Silence should be.

The other option is making speed bonuses Overlap instead of Stack. The problem isn't one or the other, its that all 3 together are too good. Nerfing one piece of the puzzle, the Equipment, is the best option.

I disagree, since NBs cried and whined for buffs, then bitched and moaned for nerfs (BE for Sorcs and other skills for DKs), they need to get a taste of their own medicine. ZoS, please nerf NBs.

So you want them to remove Nightblade's 25% sneak speed increase while vampires of all classes with the set will receive 60% speed buff and still sneak around at faster than sprint speed?
Makes sense, I guess. As a vampire I'll still be able to outpace all non-vamps, as well as all vamps that don't wear the set, so I just won't bother to get cured in that instance.

aco5712 · July 2014

I think the best way is to make the set work as the vampire passive and the raimant set where it gets rid of the penalty. Would solve the issue and would make it still a nice set to have.

Side Note: why in the world would ZOS make raimant set a light armour.... whose bright idea was that >.>

frwinters_ESO · July 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

Firstly i want to say i am a NB, that is my main character and i do plan to take full advantage of this new set however i dont want to see cloak get nerfed the way bolt escape did or for me to waste all my mats on this set to have it changed to something useless.

The new set will give 60% movement speed in stealth when you got 5 pieces. Now you couple that with concealed weapon (25%) and the vampire passive (remove speed penalty in stealth) and what do you have? Insane speed.

I run conc. wep and vampire passive and as it stands i can move in a sprint in stealth (im sure most of you know about this). When i have someone cast rapid maneuvers, i run as fast as horses (obviously depends on the horse but i have caught people like this). Rapid is only a 20% buff (30% is its morphed), so i can only imagine what another 30-40% speed will do. You can also get the mundus which gives you movement speed for even more. All in all you can get about 95% speed (judging that the mundus is 10% speed) in stealth without rapid maneuvers .

Now the real problem starts when you catch someone with this insane speed. If the fight doesnt go your way and they arent running magelight / detect pots, 1 cloak duration with this speed will probably double the distance if not more of a single bolt escape and your totally invisible. Cloak can be cast up to like 6 times at least with full magicka + 1 pot if you dont have light armour.

This new nights silence set is cool in theory but i think it needs a nerf before it even goes live. A 25/30% speed boost imo is more then enough. It lets non NBs hit our speeds but still lets NBs dominate stealth movement.

So yeh, i dont want them to nerf cloak in a couple weeks when every NB is flying across maps.

Thank you for reading, hopefully ZOS reads this.

Why did you have to make this public? Now they will nerf and NB need all the help we can get! Hush!

nothing to see here! Were not getting any buffs or great advantages, please move on...

XquixoticalX · July 2014

That's really surprising what you found about weapons out or not because I know it definitely feels slower when the weapon is out and I am trying to sprint. Maybe it only applies to sprinting? I know this is a discussion about stealth speed so sprinting is irrelevant, just saying I do think having the weapon sheathed increases sprint speed.

Kewljag_66_ESO · July 2014

I also think the OP is assuming you can just run away from a losing fight at at the total sneak speed bonus. you cannot do this because you cannot enter sneak while in combat. Even if you use the NB vanish skill this is not the same as sneak and you are not getting the sneak speed bonus.

personally the way i see it is fine with all stacking, if one had to be removed I would say make vamp speed not stack.

Nights silence set makes you sacrifice not allowing the big 5th bonus from any other set. that is a big deal. If you lower Nights Silence speed bonus of 60% at all then the set is not worth it.

Concealed Weapon, you are making a big sacrafice for 25% sneak speed over the 40% armor debuff of Suprise Attack. Alot of people may not know this but all the NB class melee skills are based off the targets armor NOT magic resist. So 40% armor debuff is a big deal.

Zabus · July 2014

Just make it not work with vampire and the speed mundus and voila. The whole reason this set is even attractive is because of that 60%.

Not to mention this is available to ALL classes, and not every NB runs concealed weapon. So I don't see why it would need a nerf.

In order for cloak to even get the distance you're talking about you would probably need to run every single thing you listed : retreating maneuvers + vamp + concealed weapon + the set + mundus.

Retreating Maneuvers costs like 800 stamina, so once you catch up to someone you can only block/deal so much with stamina.

Vamp = They pull out silver shards or fire and you're f*cked

Concealed weapon = no 40% armor debuff = less damage

Running this set means you can't get the benefits of much better ones like Hunding's, Lamae, Night Mother's, Bulwark etc etc.

Thief/Shadow are much better options for people looking to deal more damage.

All in all, you get great speed with this set but there is no hit and run as NB. You're trading movement speed for damage.

aco5712 · July 2014

Is there a difference between sneak and invis? i swear they are counted as the same thing. If they arent then there will be no problem but if this set does work together, then the problem is there.

Question: the new hundings rage set says increase wep POWER by 24 not wep DAMAGE. Now i asked my guilds and people said power refers to light/heavy attacks. Ashen grip says wep damage so its not just ZOS interchanging the word. So which is it?

Mescalamba · July 2014

I hope this wont result in another nerf to us vampires.

Mescalamba · July 2014

aco5712 wrote: »

Is there a difference between sneak and invis? i swear they are counted as the same thing. If they arent then there will be no problem but if this set does work together, then the problem is there.

Question: the new hundings rage set says increase wep POWER by 24 not wep DAMAGE. Now i asked my guilds and people said power refers to light/heavy attacks. Ashen grip says wep damage so its not just ZOS interchanging the word. So which is it?

Yes, power is light and heavy attack. Weapon damage simple adds damage to everything based on it (skills, light, heavy). For some builds its good..

Samadhi · July 2014

Just curious if anyone has had the chance this Set on PTS yet.

Does the speed buff effect stack with Vampire?
Does it stack with Concealed Weapon?

demonlkojipub19_ESO · July 2014

So why didn't you make this thread when it buggedly said +220%? :?

xaraan · July 2014

Being that not all NBs are vamps (I know, I saw the back and forth on this already) and not all vamps are going to be sneaking, medium armor wearers, it seems that there should just be a movement while sneaking hardcap. I mean, realistically, you shouldn't be sneaking faster than walking speed anyway, but def not faster than normal running speed.

kieso · July 2014

whats the % increase to sneak with the vamp passive?

Samadhi · July 2014

kieso wrote: »

whats the % increase to sneak with the vamp passive?

Vampire passive makes it so that sneak speed does not receive a penalty -- I move the same speed as when I am walking.

Nightblade Concealed Weapon makes me move at almost sprinting speed while crouched, as a Vampire.

Theoretically Night's Silence set will make Vampires sneak at 60% faster than normal walking speed, going by the wording on the set.

DeLindsay · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

whats the % increase to sneak with the vamp passive?

Vampire passive makes it so that sneak speed does not receive a penalty -- I move the same speed as when I am walking.

Nightblade Concealed Weapon makes me move at almost sprinting speed while crouched, as a Vampire.

Theoretically Night's Silence set will make Vampires sneak at 60% faster than normal walking speed, going by the wording on the set.

First, the penalty negation = run speed not walk speed. Second, we still can't confirm that the Night's Silence 60% will stack with Dark Stalker in Vampire. It can't at this time stack with Shadow Dancer because you can't wear 10 body pcs until they introduce Jewelry crafting.

If it does end up stacking with Dark Stalker then ALL Classes that are Vampires will be faster than Sprint, not just NB's. NB's will only have the option of an additional 25%. For non-Vampires, the 60% will bring non-NB's very close to normal run speed, and NB's who also slot Concealed Weapon should be at run speed, or basically Sneaking movement penalty negation.

All in all, this isn't remotely a NB-BE mechanic as NB's can still only be 25% faster than anyone else, and only if slotting Concealed Weapon (which many don't).