What role is stamina meant to play in mass pvp?

MrMT · July 2014

Part of the trouble with the magika/stamina issue is that there is no clear extra that stamina brings to the table. It's the same utility, but weaker.

Now I realise that eventually ZOS will nudge stamina a little closer to magika's strength (though it's sure taking its sweet time about it), but I'd be interested if there was any vision for what unique role stamina users might bring to a big fight.

Playing in Cyrodiil with an organised raid today, the instructions were clear: everyone needed impulse. 'If you don't have it, get it' was the instruction. The reason was that it outshone every other skill to such an extent, that to not get it was to hinder the group.

I stood there shame faced in my leathers and slunk away. No role for me there.

I decided that as a nightblade dw/bow (I tried 2h, but it really is much much worse than dw for pvp) my role is simply different.

I am a lurker on the edges, snacking on the weak, harrying drawn out supply lines. I have no place in the main big boys group as they go bombing into one keep after another. I am a guerilla rather than a regular army. Oh, and I can snipe a little further away than other people.

That's fine. If stamina are the rangers and trackers, and magika the rank and file of the army, I get it. Except, let's be honest, magika makes for better ranging and ambushing also. IE magika users are the best at all possible roles in Cyrodiil.

I have no doubt this will change. It makes a mockery of the whole system ZOS designed.

But in which way? What's the vision here? What are stamina users for?

Noisivid · July 2014

Stamina builds exist so that magicka based, light armour/staff users can test builds in relative safety.
I say this as a med armour wearing, 2hd wielding VR5 DK doing VR8 content. I'm also leveling DK and Sorcerer LA&Staff builds in hopes of being able to contribute to PvP in some meaningful fashion other than target practice.

Samadhi · July 2014

MrMT wrote: »

...
That's fine. If stamina are the rangers and trackers, and magika the rank and file of the army, I get it. Except, let's be honest, magika makes for better ranging and ambushing also. IE magika users are the best at all possible roles in Cyrodiil.
...

Could you more clearly elucidate how you feel Magicka users are better for ranging and ambushing?
I don't disagree that Magicka builds are comparably more powerful, I'm just wondering if you could provide better example as to what you are seeing that makes this so.

When I think of my experiences with Medium Armour/Stamina build I focus mainly on the increased sprint speed, better stealth travel, and better dodge-roll capability.
My personal role as a Medium Armour player was solo scouting deep into enemy territory and eliminating individual players.
I can still do this on a Light Armour/Magicka build, but I'm not inclined to feel that I do it as effectively, or at least efficiently. The resource management behind it was far better as a Medium Armour player, and that was before Medium Armour received even greater resource management.

Arsenic_Touch · July 2014

The answer to the question is Cannon Fodder.

Aeratus · July 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

MrMT wrote: »

...
That's fine. If stamina are the rangers and trackers, and magika the rank and file of the army, I get it. Except, let's be honest, magika makes for better ranging and ambushing also. IE magika users are the best at all possible roles in Cyrodiil.
...

Could you more clearly elucidate how you feel Magicka users are better for ranging and ambushing?
I don't disagree that Magicka builds are comparably more powerful, I'm just wondering if you could provide better example as to what you are seeing that makes this so.

When I think of my experiences with Medium Armour/Stamina build I focus mainly on the increased sprint speed, better stealth travel, and better dodge-roll capability.
My personal role as a Medium Armour player was solo scouting deep into enemy territory and eliminating individual players.
I can still do this on a Light Armour/Magicka build, but I'm not inclined to feel that I do it as effectively, or at least efficiently. The resource management behind it was far better as a Medium Armour player, and that was before Medium Armour received even greater resource management.

For NB ambushing, all NB class skills like teleport strike, veiled strike, etc. scale off of spell power. So magicka builds will increase the damage of these skills. Although they use physical crit, most of the toughest targets will have anti-crit armor anyways. Furthermore, a resto staff nightblade has access to the cycle of life passive, which further increases the damage of these ambush-related class skills. Furthermore, light armor reduces magicka cost.

The only weapon skill that has any use in ambushing is snipe. However, you can still carry a bow as secondary, and use light armor/magicka after firing the shot.

As to ranged combat, magicka has two advantages. First, magicka dps is higher in ranged combat than bow. Secondly, most damage that you take are from spells of other players, so spell resistance (light armor) is far better than medium.

Medium does have an advantage in scouting and movement, however. So if you're mostly a scouter or strictly a mobility-oriented skirmisher, then medium might be better.

dennissomb16_ESO · July 2014

Breaking out of various CCs takes stamina, a lot of stamina. Considering the amount of CC in the game with no diminishing returns, more stamina can be of use. This of course depends on the type of fight

Mr.Turtlesworth · July 2014

I agree that stamina needs a buff.. I use both stam and health as my main stats though because I hate magicka abilities for the most part.

Akula · July 2014

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Breaking out of various CCs takes stamina, a lot of stamina. Considering the amount of CC in the game with no diminishing returns, more stamina can be of use. This of course depends on the type of fight

Good point and another reason why stamina builds are worthless. While magicka users can spare all their stamina for CC's breaking, blocking, sneaking while leaving a full pool of damage resources for fighting, stamina builds cannot.

Gix · July 2014

MrMT wrote: »

Playing in Cyrodiil with an organised raid today, the instructions were clear: everyone needed impulse. 'If you don't have it, get it' was the instruction. The reason was that it outshone every other skill to such an extent, that to not get it was to hinder the group.

/leave group

Doesn't matter if they're the top PvP guild in the world, don't fight with @#$holes. They might actually learn a thing or two about what it means to be in a group.

My stamina is used not only for some attacks, but to keep myself from getting hit too much. It really depends in how you're set up.

I didn't play my Nightblade to wear dresses and fling spells like a battlemage and I certainly don't need someone to tell me how to play. Telling me which objective to get is one thing but I'll handle the rest from there, thank you very much.

Renuo · July 2014

Stamina focused builds are superior for ganking in my humble opinion.

You have to use your advantages. I came into this game wanting an assassin style character for PvP and I've got it. The amount of roll/dodges/cc breaks I can pull every fight while being unable to continually unload damage is also a massive boost. I know what you are thinking - magica only players can do all this without needing their stam - but we can still do it a lot more + faster run speed and all that.

I think what many stamina focused players make a huge mistake doing is not boosting their magica at all and not using their magica based abilities to it's fullest. There is no choice in this game but to use some magica abilities and as stalking NBs we actually do need to use quite a bit (the cloak is one of the big reasons). On my bow hot bar there is 3 magika abilities for example, even though I deal the majority of my damage from having stamina overcharged and capped weapon dmg.

Cloak is not just a run away ability either, you can use this offensively in a powerful way by using it to reposition yourself more favorably (or just potentially confusing them) while charging a heavy attack.

The largest group I've ever been a part of in Cyro for any longer than 10 minutes was a 6 man gank group. Zerging is just not right for these types of builds at all.

On that point not everyone wants to play like I do. ZoS needs to address that and make some stamina things more viable for bigger group play - whirling blades is so much more inferior than impulse for starters (even if 100% adequately built for it).

This is my vid if anyone finds it helpful finding a place for their stamina focused NB. I do make mistakes and I'm not perfect or the best, but I manage to compete well for the role I've chosen for myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvG_9FYcLx0&feature=youtu.be

badmojo · July 2014

I like being able to throw a dagger 28m with my stamina, and then siphon health from 28m with my magicka. Plus, there's nothing quite like sprinting up to a staff wielding robe wearer and plunging daggers into their chest until they stop moving. They seem to have trouble firing off their abilities while being melee attacked like that.

For me, I always try to keep an eye on everything and help out my team mates more than go for personal glory. I play a supporting combat role, so to speak. If I see someone getting beat up, I'll try to stun or distract their opponent, it gives them that edge they needed to win the fight. Moving around the battle with speed, distracting and disrupting the enemy can be a huge asset to your team. But, you have to know your role and stick to it, whenever I try to go off alone and conquer the world, I'm quickly reminded of our weaknesses.

Gilvoth · July 2014

MrMT wrote: »

Part of the trouble with the magika/stamina issue is that there is no clear extra that stamina brings to the table. It's the same utility, but weaker.

Now I realise that eventually ZOS will nudge stamina a little closer to magika's strength (though it's sure taking its sweet time about it), but I'd be interested if there was any vision for what unique role stamina users might bring to a big fight.

Playing in Cyrodiil with an organised raid today, the instructions were clear: everyone needed impulse. 'If you don't have it, get it' was the instruction. The reason was that it outshone every other skill to such an extent, that to not get it was to hinder the group.

I stood there shame faced in my leathers and slunk away. No role for me there.

I decided that as a nightblade dw/bow (I tried 2h, but it really is much much worse than dw for pvp) my role is simply different.

I am a lurker on the edges, snacking on the weak, harrying drawn out supply lines. I have no place in the main big boys group as they go bombing into one keep after another. I am a guerilla rather than a regular army. Oh, and I can snipe a little further away than other people.

That's fine. If stamina are the rangers and trackers, and magika the rank and file of the army, I get it. Except, let's be honest, magika makes for better ranging and ambushing also. IE magika users are the best at all possible roles in Cyrodiil.

I have no doubt this will change. It makes a mockery of the whole system ZOS designed.

But in which way? What's the vision here? What are stamina users for?

awesome post, was a good read and i do agree, as i am in the same exact build (stamina duel wield dagger user and bow just like yourself)
i find it a bit hard to group and infact i never group because of several reasons
but, your reasons are 1 of the many, i do agree.
one thing that frustrates me is trying to reach the group or follow them to where i can infact get a good angle to assassinate some one and right when it's the perfect time i am sadly all out of stamina at that exact moment because sneaking stoled 97% of all the stamina i had.

very frustrating and i do believe it may even be intentional.

Crisscross · July 2014

Gix wrote: »

They might actually learn a thing or two about what it means to be in a group.

Gix wrote: »

... and I certainly don't need someone to tell me how to play. Telling me which objective to get is one thing but I'll handle the rest from there, thank you very much.

Uh huh...

semp3rfi · July 2014

Theres also the fact that stamina can be used to seriously mitigate damage without taking up a skill slot. This is a huge advantage for magika because the stamina bar can be used for pure defence. I stamina build needs to dip into it for offence and defence.

It may be feasible to have an option to chose which resource bar dodge and block consumes.