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Four words Zenimax probably regrets saying
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Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭Please note in my last post the question why should you may pop in some of your alls heads. If you should or not, is not the point.
The point is that maybe you want to, and you think it would be fun and cool to do that on your character.
But, you can't because your character is Meant to function primarily in 1 of 3 ways (depending on your class traits)... Period.
Bottom line is that ESO is "less" limiting, then some other MMO's and gives you "more" options when developing your character then many others.
The cavete to this is that, you are still bound, limited and locked into whatever class you picks main 3 skill lines. And no matter how much you say you ahve other options from armor and weapons there will always be the 65%-75% of other builds, skills, and fun things that YOU will never experience or be able to do on your character. Because the class system has locked you into your specific "theme" for that character.Edited by Malpherian on July 10, 2014 4:34AM1 -
drogon1✭✭✭✭Game is young. They are taking class balancing slowly, which is probably a good thing if - and I wouldn't know - end-game class performance is not significantly out of whack. Once things are more balanced - and for example stam builds are viable - "play as you want" will have more meaning.
I take "play as you want" to mean also choice in how to progress your character. Different modes of progression should all be equally viable - dungeons, pvp, grinding, and questing. Not sure what the hold up is here, but this seems to be a much easier thing to "balance" than class and weapon skills exploiting unanticipated synergies.Edited by drogon1 on July 10, 2014 4:30AM1 -
drogon1✭✭✭✭Malpherian wrote: »indytims_ESO wrote: »None of my characters wear light armor, or use a staff - and I find the PVE content to still be fairly easy.
Stick & Pajamas might give players an edge in PVP or something (I really don't know), but in PVE, you really can play 'how you want'... within the confines of the game itself. To me that's just common-sense. Ripping on Zeni for 'play how you want failure' is being quite nitpicky, in my opinion.
1.) So if you roll a DK your telling me you can summon Daedra if you want to be a Tanky pet totting Range tank Bow shooting DK?
The answer is no, you can't.
2.) So your Sorcerer Gets 300% bonus to damage when attacking a target below 25% health, Or can go invisible, and have a trait which does a stun/damage bonus when attacking your target from sneak?
"Again, the answer is NO, you can't."
3.) So your NightBlade wants to be a healer? Can you res people and create soul gems in the process 50% of the time, or heal anywhere near as effectively as a Restoration Templar?
Yes you can use a resto staff to heal (sort of), but weapons do not have badass channel healing ultimate's. And your Nightblade most certainly doesn't. A full heal spec Templar will out heal you any day of the week. Because (and here is the point) HIS CLASS, is DESIGNED to... HEAL. And yours ISN'T.
So,
"No, you can't"
4.) Can your Templar pull people from walls, and do massive AOE damage while simultaneously stunning people in place, as well as taking Massive amounts of damage and reflecting 90% of all damage back to your attackers?
"No, you can't"
I can go on, and on, and on.
So go ahead tell me how Un-restrictive your class is and how your not locked into your roles and you can "Play your character and develop it how you want".
Oh wait... You can't.
LOL. Seriously, roll an alt. I am not fond of the do-it-all-on-one-toon mentality for MMOs I guess. I like class variety - so long as all classes are equally viable.0 -
Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭Malpherian wrote: »indytims_ESO wrote: »None of my characters wear light armor, or use a staff - and I find the PVE content to still be fairly easy.
Stick & Pajamas might give players an edge in PVP or something (I really don't know), but in PVE, you really can play 'how you want'... within the confines of the game itself. To me that's just common-sense. Ripping on Zeni for 'play how you want failure' is being quite nitpicky, in my opinion.
1.) So if you roll a DK your telling me you can summon Daedra if you want to be a Tanky pet totting Range tank Bow shooting DK?
The answer is no, you can't.
2.) So your Sorcerer Gets 300% bonus to damage when attacking a target below 25% health, Or can go invisible, and have a trait which does a stun/damage bonus when attacking your target from sneak?
"Again, the answer is NO, you can't."
3.) So your NightBlade wants to be a healer? Can you res people and create soul gems in the process 50% of the time, or heal anywhere near as effectively as a Restoration Templar?
Yes you can use a resto staff to heal (sort of), but weapons do not have badass channel healing ultimate's. And your Nightblade most certainly doesn't. A full heal spec Templar will out heal you any day of the week. Because (and here is the point) HIS CLASS, is DESIGNED to... HEAL. And yours ISN'T.
So,
"No, you can't"
4.) Can your Templar pull people from walls, and do massive AOE damage while simultaneously stunning people in place, as well as taking Massive amounts of damage and reflecting 90% of all damage back to your attackers?
"No, you can't"
I can go on, and on, and on.
So go ahead tell me how Un-restrictive your class is and how your not locked into your roles and you can "Play your character and develop it how you want".
Oh wait... You can't.
LOL. Seriously, roll an alt. I am not fond of the do-it-all-on-one-toon mentality for MMOs I guess. I like class variety - so long as all classes are equally viable.
Oh I have one of each class, I am just stating the above for the benefit of the thread topic. Because it is what it is, and I have to say I am very disappointed myself in how the system works and the fact that I can't switch out my skills or trait lines.
ZOS lost 2 Million subs, when they decided to go this route with the classes, and the subs just keep dropping because they refuse to admit they made a mistake and fix it. (1 million give or take dureing the beta who flat out stated they would not be buying the game if it released with classes, and another 800k or so When it was announced to release and people saw nothing had changed despite a vast majority clamoring for it.
Is that the only issue? No. But it's the one choice on release that cost them many of the beta testers, and over 60% of the TES fanbase, who told them NOT to keep classes, that it was not traditional, and that it did not feel like a TES game with them, and despite the ability to have all the weapon and armor traits etc, they felt restricted and locked into a theme they no longer liked.
That one decision cost them more subs before the game even released, then they have gained or lost in the last 3 months "since" release.
I would call that a Fatal error. (And it may actually be the reason ZOS is bringing in Sleeping Giant from SWTOR, All SG does is F2P market development). They pretty much killed the game with that decision, and will most likely have to go F2P to save it.
Though if the FPS and bug issues had not been so bad it "Might" have recovered. But to lose over 70% of your "possible Subscribers" base before you even release.... I mean really.... That is Nuts.
This game could have sold Millions of copies (Skyrim did) but instead it sold 300k (give or take). Which is just SAD for a TES game.
Edited by Malpherian on July 10, 2014 4:48AM5 -
KariTR✭✭✭✭✭Sure if you want to be able to summon you play a sorc, but I don't see how that negates the 'play as you want' ethos. It's still a choice after all.
Play as you want is very evident in game:
You can take any role in a group
You don't need to respec when you go into a dungeon, or join the alliance war
You can solo or you can join a party.
You can stay by yourself and still enjoy group content.
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Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭Sure if you want to be able to summon you play a sorc, but I don't see how that negates the 'play as you want' ethos. It's still a choice after all.
Play as you want is very evident in game:
1 You can take any role in a group
2 You don't need to respec when you go into a dungeon, or join the alliance war
3 You can solo or you can join a party.
4 You can stay by yourself and still enjoy group content.
1. Um, no you can't. unless you want to wipe. Or unless it's a low level easymode dungeon.
2. Yes you do, depending on the dungeon, or trial or you are not getting in the group.
3. Sometimes.
4. Sometimes.2 -
Aureli✭✭✭I play exactly how I want.
Sometimes I play in a bathrobe at home, sometimes in a suit at work, and other times I play naked over a plate of hot wings. But no matter what I am doing or wearing while I am playing, it is usually because I want to play that way.
Your argument has been disproven.
I am sooo glad I'm not the only one. I've found Buffalo Wild Wings sweet and spicy goes best with the naked playstyle, but that's a personal preference.
More on topic, I have no problems running as a dps tank sorcerer, nobody ever yells at me if we wipe (which is actually a healing problem in this game since the "tank" only gets 15 seconds aggro), and I've never been told "go respect cause you suck". Maybe I'm just good, but I think it works.
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steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭It also implies that all skill lines are viable for all content. It doesn't matter if you're a Templar master of the two-handed axe, or a shadow-specced nightblade. Because of what you bring to the table with that spec, you'd be wanted.
We know how that's gone...
They did not imply it - they flat out stated it and made it the central pillar of their marketing. And they then reiterated it held true for VR. It is what helps make this an ES game and they flat out have to get it right.
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I find hot wings to be too messy and get sauce all over the keyboard.
As for "play your way", it seems like staff+light is the limiting factor for DPS builds at the top end. However, we should all keep in mind that in EVERY MMO, there is an uncreative crowd that gets it into its head that a certain way of doing things is "right" and "optimal", and a good portion of the time, they're simply wrong because they are not fully analyzing the problem, or are simply doing the math wrong.
In EVE they're called "EFT warriors"; people who come up with a ship that has impressive stats on paper but doesn't necessarily work well in combat because it has problems applying its damage, is easily outranged, or a host of other problems that aren't easily identified looking at raw stats.
Furthermore, developers love nothing more than to come up with things that defeat "flavor of the month". The "optimal" build today is not necessarily the "optimal" build tomorrow.
Finally, "play your way" does not mean the ability to do everything yourself.1 -
They need to give us a chance to learn skills from other classes.
After they do this, they will make play the way you want real. Only.... Be ready for more mages. Class skills are.powerfull and ALL use magicka....1 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Arsenic_Touch wrote: »Play how you want would've actually worked if they stuck with the original elder scroll system where everyone had access to the skill lines and could pick and choose what they want. But no, they wanted to have a class system that despite what people claim, it does actually adhere to a holy trinity system where certain classes perform their rolls much better than others.
Agree, Zenimax handicapped themselves on this as soon as they implemented the class/tree system
High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !1 -
Melufey✭✭✭You can play what you want. As long as you use staff and light armor. And you're a DK or Sorc.Für das Dominion und die Königin!
Bosmer - Nachtklinge
"Man mag den Stamm trennen, aber die Ranke tötet man damit nicht."1 -
fosley_ESO✭✭So far I haven't really had any issues playing my way, but in general if you state that someone can play it their way, it's automatic that you're implying that way will be successful. Because otherwise, you're just stating the obvious: you can play however you want, but it might not work. And why state the obvious as a marketing slogan?0
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Lord_Bidr✭✭✭diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »Finally, "play your way" does not mean the ability to do everything yourself.
This, totally this. When will people realize it was a marketing gimmick? They're not, technically, lying when they said you can play the way you want.
Also, as someone else mentioned earlier, it's in the nature of not just MMOs, but any game, to have optimal builds which will always be better than the rest (anyone remember magic builds like Conjuration and Destruction from Skyrim?). You don't have to play these builds. But if you want to rolfstomplol the contents, you can. And guess what, some people are choosing this path of least resistance.
This being an MMO, balance will always be an issue. The ball will always swing from one end of the courtyard to the next all the time. That's not the game's fault, it's how MMOs work. It just so happens that now is the time for Magicka-based builds, especially DKs and Sorcs. This will change in time, this much is guaranteed (though for better or worse, no one knows).
And if you think ESO's class and skills system is restrictive, try another MMO. Perhaps then you'll know what it means to 'not be able to play however I want'.
~ The brightest lights often cast the darkest shadows. ~0 -
Dayv✭✭✭✭I think "Elder Scrolls" is the two words they will always struggle with most. They failed the moment they made classes.1 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As was pointed out by someone recently, this is a partial quote of the entire phrase that was on the boxed product that is endlessly repeated in a totally misleading way, it had NOTHING to do with character builds at all.Play how you want..
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on July 10, 2014 7:00AM0 -
jeevin✭✭✭✭✭They failed hardest when they used the four words The Elder Scrolls Online. The game no way plays with the freedom one expects from an Elder Scrolls game. In the introduction to ESO video they even say things like we want you to explore and get distracted by other things going on, play the way you want. But the game is just far too linear for real Elder Scrolls game play and completely in-balanced with skills/classes.3 -
Ninnghizhidda✭✭✭✭The "advertisement" is certainly true... as long as you are OK to play a "Harry Potter".
In my book, this is nothing like the Elder Scrolls series have provided for almost 20 years. Even if this one is a MMO.
Currently waiting to see how the upcoming changes in new Updates will lessen this utter crapola and move ESO to the direction it should have been progressing since Beta times (unless we are still in Beta, as a number of people have stated, which could be a bit true).0 -
jeevin✭✭✭✭✭Ninnghizhidda wrote: »The "advertisement" is certainly true... as long as you are OK to play a "Harry Potter".
In my book, this is nothing like the Elder Scrolls series have provided for almost 20 years. Even if this one is a MMO.
Currently waiting to see how the upcoming changes in new Updates will lessen this utter crapola and move ESO to the direction it should have been progressing since Beta times (unless we are still in Beta, as a number of people have stated, which could be a bit true).
The game is in beta. Theres no denying this game is not finished and we have been duped into paying to play test the game. Regardless, the changes they make now are to late for most of us anyway. I don't want to play through everything again in the hope that it's the way it should have been at release. And pay Zenimax for the privilege? I think not.1 -
Rivqua✭✭"the customer is always right"
In a sense yea. But if the customer always was right, we would run around 1 shooting everything. We would have 1 attack, a win all attack.
If a customer goes in to a store and want to buy cement for his engine for lubrication, is that making him right? prooly not. Less smart? hell yea..
FailIsAlwaysAnOption0 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
And I provided an extended quote that disproved your point right after. It had everything to do with character builds. You know it and i know it.
From the horses mouth again
One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.
However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.
This is the philosophy behind the core systems of ESO—play the way you want to play—and it extends to our veteran content.
Play as you want is absolutely fundamental to the game. It was a prominent marketing device, it was a USP, it was an implementation of something basic to the ES series.
At this point i am questioning the motives of people who try to claim otherwise.
to repeat quote:
This is the philosophy behind the core systems of ESO—play the way you want to play
Edited by steveb16_ESO46 on July 10, 2014 9:25AM2 -
I actually roll 2 alts per class. 8 totally differents alts and all of them are fun to play. Different game experience on all of them. Sure, some are more optimized and more powerful than others and I had to scrap a build or two that I chose skills that weren't going well together. That's my job to make them work well. I'm not stuck anywhere ingame with any of them. So that's what I think the developper meant by: play the way you want. All my alts has an unique feel and that a fun part of the game.I just love chaos!0 -
Well to be fair, you CAN play however you want. You just won't be as effective as other builds *cough* staff/light armor *cough*
That is actually very well said in my opinion. But okay here's my opinion:
There's nothing preventing you to make your own build outside the so called best one(s). Actually, I think it is a good challenge to try different things. Yes of course on pvp it might be a lot more difficult choosing like stamina build, but if you can do it, at least somehow, wouldn't you be proud? I mean, against the hundreds if not thousands "I want the best build I can rule" players you at least try something different and are brave enough to go into a fight with that what you have. Maybe you even get more skilled by doing that.
Just, see how far you can go with different builds, don't be a n00b
PS. Okay the n00b thing was a joke:)
Take care all,
Cheers...
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I doubt ZOS even cares. Look at Guild Wars 2, players are still bringing up the "manifesto" two years later.0
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Enjinir✭✭✭I want to be a Necromancer. Combining the summoning line from the sorcerer and the siphoning line from the nightblade would be pretty cool. Granted, the daedric summons look like goofy taffy monsters, and I literally kill hundreds of mobs that actually summon skeletons, so I can't imagine how hard it would be to offer me that ability. And now that I think about it, there's really no option for being a Hunter. I mean, there's a bow skill line, but no nature abilities and no taming pets.
I get what they're saying but they're a long ways off from providing true flexibility. They should just scrap the class system altogether, and let you flag yourself as DPS, Tank or Healer for group finding purposes.
Another idea would be to add to the Veteran Level benefits the ability to pick an additional skill line to invest points into later in the game. Like, you start the game as a Nightblade, and play with NB skill lines until 50. At VR1 you are allowed to pick one skill line from the other classes to invest in, Summoning for instance. Then at intervals you can unlock additional skill lines to invest in, something like one every 3 or 4 VRs or so.0 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭the game is barely 3 months old, there are tons of ballance issues, just like there were in every other game this early on.
first everyone went dk cuz they were so overpowered in pvp, then everyone went templar b/c it was so easy via honor the dead and biting jabs to faceroll solo vet content. then everyone went sorc when they figured out crit surge/crushing shock. so each month theres been a flavor so far , and each month our community has gone to the stronger class/build instead of improving what they can do on their own toon.
plenty of changes are going through, weekly/biweekly.
i am a v12 2h sword melee paladin - i am on all the weeklies for both trials with good times (less then 30min normal runs - i have not participated in a speed run yet- cuz i have better things to do with my time then practice jumping ravines) i had no issues lvling through vet content at all, and i was v9 before craglorn came out - no grinding, only questing/dungeons
- in fact once i hit vet zones, i went and started lvling up all my weapons while questing in vet zones, b/c i wanted to find a build that i wasnt spamming biting jabs on.
all of you QQ too much, if u choose to take the flavor of the week now u'll just reroll in a few weeks to the next overpowered thing and guess what, thats playing as YOU WANT.
i personally play as i want too, and am having so much fun on my 2h templar that i am unable to play on my alts b/c thankfully i just cant bring myself to log off this toon.
so, the problem here, is the fact that the game is relatively brand new and everyone is going flavor of the week each time, instead of trying to push out their best on the class they originally rolled on0 -
reagen_lionel✭✭✭✭I think the key problem is. They made classes too impactful. When they originally announced having classes, many people disliked the idea of it.
Zenimax's response was that classes were nothing more than a baseline to start from, and you could still build your character in anyway you want.
However, in the end, they made classes skills matter far more than they should have. there arent enough ordinary skills for a given skill tree that can really compete with the class skills right now. In addition, all class skills use mana, so by default your kind of pushed to favor magicka in your builds no matter what class you are.0 -
phairdon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Another option would be allowing players to add one skill line from all other classes in game once they reach veteran level.
Also would like to see an expansion of available classes. Necromancer & a ranger type build.Your immersion is breaking my entitlement. Buff Sorc's. Darkshroud the cremator Death by furRubeus BlackFluffy knight BladesThe Fat PantherPsijic Fungal SausageFlesheater the VileCaspian Rafferty FernsbyArchfiend Warlock PiersThe Black BishopEvil Wizard Lizard (EU)Neberra Vestige Fajeon (EU)Salanis Deathstick (EU)Blood Mage Alchemist (EU)1 -
DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭i am a dual resource 2h templar - 1850 stam/mag 2400 hp - with food buff, i have no issues at all with any of the content and ive completed both AA and HRC, my quickest time for AA w/o trying a speed run is 26min. i break 700 dps sustained, and over 800 once i get to execution range, pics of this are all over this site- TF, and reddit.
when soloing in vet zones (i only touch the rift - its my last zone in my 3rd alliance zone) i pull non stop and only slow down when im picking up resources.
in vet dungeons, i am literally a demi god, between blazing spear and carve, i push upwards of 4000 dps for aoe, so i demolish groups quickly, and b/c of carve spam i am buliding enough ultimate to drop a nova - the highest cost ulitmate in the game EVERY PULL. i also have tons of support abilities and a heal or two on my loadout.
im not going to say L2P, but i am going to say that u need to try MUCH harder if u are having such issues. thinking outside the box is something that ESO pushes, regardless of whether or not u notice it.
w/o respeccing i can go tank/heal/dps just by switching out gear with my current skill set and be viable in trials, soloing, or vet dungeons
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