Firestar_ wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

You should try challenging things in real life instead; that way the feeling of accomplishment is valid.

This is where I sit. My job and RL are challenging enough as it is. I use games to relax.

As a child where nothing IRL was a challenge or stimulating? Hell yes, Dark soul-esque games all day long!
I could afford to drop those 60+ hours into an RPG because as a kid, I needed that kind of stimulation because there was no other way to get that feeling of power. I'd print out walkthroughs, ways to max stats, even grind out "cheat" things that took insane hours like Skyrim's max potion-> max Enchant->max Armor->done or FF7's Chocobo breeding.

As a kid, mindless grinding and min/maxing so I could beat that ridiculously difficult boss was fun.

Now it's just too much damned work to be fun.

Bear in mind some people have not gained any more responsibilities than what they had as a child. You can spot them on the forums quite easily.

NerfEverything wrote: »

Post a video of you soloing a VR10 dolman naked, or shut your pie hole.

He was solo while leveling as there was no one about.

actually its really not that tough if you pull from the outskirts and run back away after every kill or so. Now if he just went in swinging, that would probably end badly for him.

gcalex5 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

I used to be and adventurer like you then I got out of school and had to work a real job and don't have time to be 1337 anymore

Ah the useful, polite and constructive post that I have come to love on this forum.

Anyway, speaking as a 50 year old casual player who still likes a good challenge and finds a good challenge relaxing,, My comments since the change.

From what I understand most people who didn't like the old vet content never made it to vet 2 or 3 before giving up, that being the case, I cant see how there would be a huge increase in players in the upper levels. I can understand a slight increase if a few players got that far before finally giving up, but to get that far, you would have to have had a build that works, hence should have been able to continue through the lot.

I'm currently in Greenshade which is a vet 3 (I think) area and have not really noticed any more players than before, which is what I would expect, I would imagine the vet 1 zones are now going to be much more busy if any.

I really really sympathise with those that struggled with it as there was something very very wrong with it. I'm still not convinced this is entirely down to difficulty though.


I couldn't survive or enjoy myself at all when I first reached vet with my two pets summoned and my bow as my second weapon, I simply didn't progress at all.

I am not the best player by a long way, have always been the butt of many guild jokes for doing silly things (by mistake) in raids etc on other MMOs and I can never get my head around working out the numbers to perfect the ultimate build.

I am anything but elitist and I play to have fun.

That said, I was always invited back to other raids ion my previous mmo so I couldn't have been that bad.

My point is, while nowhere near the best, while hating the "elitist" style player, I do know what I'm doing compared to people that have never played mmos, and I simply got sick of the vet content and honestly felt like giving up.

That being the case, I'm not surprised in the slightest that someone who has had no raiding experience and is used to solo games, found it totally impossible.

However,

A guildie pointed me to a sorc build on Reddit that I copied almost exactly, having to pay for a complete respec, and that made vet content a completely different and enjoyable experience.

3 mobs, I'd use "Weakening Prison" on one to stun it, and that usually gave me plenty of time to get the other two mobs down. I had a build that used zero stamina except for one skill. Once the two mobs were dead, I'd use "Weakening Prison" again on the 3rd mob (and if it broke free before I'd killed the other two) , then use "Dark Conversion" which uses stamina to restore my health and magic, and as that's the only skill that uses stamina, it's always available, hence when I attack the 3rd mob, I have full health and full magic.

That's one example of how my new build worked and it worked very very very well, it wasn't a walk in the park, but it didn't feel like I was banging my head against the wall.

However, obviously I am not now playing how I wanted. I got to level 50 without using the res staff at all, never equipped it, it's now my main weapon, I now no longer use the bow at all etc etc etc.

But I have got used to my new spec and I do like it and am sticking with it for now.

Trouble is, since the change, what was good fun using this build has now become a complete faceroll. This build is still awesome in other situations, when I'm doing dungeons etc with my guild, in Craglorn etc, but going through the other two alliances is now so much of a faceroll, I'm doing it as quick as I can just to get the Sky Shards etc, I would go further than that and say that with the odd exception, most of it is easier than some of the latter 1 - 49 quests were.

And that's the problem I have with the nerf. yes something needed to be done, it shouldn't have been just a few builds that the average person would find the content doable with, however they should have done some other sort of balancing where those other builds now found it fun and doable and people could cope with the content rather than dialling the entire difficulty down meaning those that had builds that could cope with it, now have builds that are simply too easy.

I could pay to respec again back to what I was originally and I would probably find the difficulty just right, but I shouldn't have needed to respec in the first place before the nerf and I shouldn't now need to do so again after.

So I sympathise with the OP and any others who can talk like adults, but I don't believe they went about this in the right way. I'm not saying they necessarily had any choice as they had to do something fast, I'm just pointing out why I preferred the old system with the build I'm now using.

In case I'm not making myself clear, I know that certain mobs might need certain skills slotted, certain dungeons might mean I need to swap a few skills etc. I know that when they say we can play as we like, they don't mean we can have whatever 5 random skills we want on our toolbars and walk through all content.

But someone who wanted to play a summoner before the game was released should have been able to cope with the content as a summoner, someone who wanted to use a bow as their main weapon, or wanted heavy armour or whatever, should have been able to cope with the content.,

Sure there's always a few very good players that can manage whatever the build, but for the everyday player the existing vet content was unbearable unless you had a few certain builds and that should never have been the case.

Likewise it should not now be the case that if you happen to have chosen one of those few builds that could do the original vet content, you now find it a faceroll.

Ojustaboo wrote: »

gcalex5 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

I used to be and adventurer like you then I got out of school and had to work a real job and don't have time to be 1337 anymore

Ah the useful, polite and constructive post that I have come to love on this forum.

Anyway, speaking as a 50 year old casual player who still likes a good challenge and finds a good challenge relaxing,, My comments since the change.

From what I understand most people who didn't like the old vet content never made it to vet 2 or 3 before giving up, that being the case, I cant see how there would be a huge increase in players in the upper levels. I can understand a slight increase if a few players got that far before finally giving up, but to get that far, you would have to have had a build that works, hence should have been able to continue through the lot.

I'm currently in Greenshade which is a vet 3 (I think) area and have not really noticed any more players than before, which is what I would expect, I would imagine the vet 1 zones are now going to be much more busy if any.

I really really sympathise with those that struggled with it as there was something very very wrong with it. I'm still not convinced this is entirely down to difficulty though.


I couldn't survive or enjoy myself at all when I first reached vet with my two pets summoned and my bow as my second weapon, I simply didn't progress at all.

I am not the best player by a long way, have always been the butt of many guild jokes for doing silly things (by mistake) in raids etc on other MMOs and I can never get my head around working out the numbers to perfect the ultimate build.

I am anything but elitist and I play to have fun.

That said, I was always invited back to other raids ion my previous mmo so I couldn't have been that bad.

My point is, while nowhere near the best, while hating the "elitist" style player, I do know what I'm doing compared to people that have never played mmos, and I simply got sick of the vet content and honestly felt like giving up.

That being the case, I'm not surprised in the slightest that someone who has had no raiding experience and is used to solo games, found it totally impossible.

However,

A guildie pointed me to a sorc build on Reddit that I copied almost exactly, having to pay for a complete respec, and that made vet content a completely different and enjoyable experience.

3 mobs, I'd use "Weakening Prison" on one to stun it, and that usually gave me plenty of time to get the other two mobs down. I had a build that used zero stamina except for one skill. Once the two mobs were dead, I'd use "Weakening Prison" again on the 3rd mob (and if it broke free before I'd killed the other two) , then use "Dark Conversion" which uses stamina to restore my health and magic, and as that's the only skill that uses stamina, it's always available, hence when I attack the 3rd mob, I have full health and full magic.

That's one example of how my new build worked and it worked very very very well, it wasn't a walk in the park, but it didn't feel like I was banging my head against the wall.

However, obviously I am not now playing how I wanted. I got to level 50 without using the res staff at all, never equipped it, it's now my main weapon, I now no longer use the bow at all etc etc etc.

But I have got used to my new spec and I do like it and am sticking with it for now.

Trouble is, since the change, what was good fun using this build has now become a complete faceroll. This build is still awesome in other situations, when I'm doing dungeons etc with my guild, in Craglorn etc, but going through the other two alliances is now so much of a faceroll, I'm doing it as quick as I can just to get the Sky Shards etc, I would go further than that and say that with the odd exception, most of it is easier than some of the latter 1 - 49 quests were.

And that's the problem I have with the nerf. yes something needed to be done, it shouldn't have been just a few builds that the average person would find the content doable with, however they should have done some other sort of balancing where those other builds now found it fun and doable and people could cope with the content rather than dialling the entire difficulty down meaning those that had builds that could cope with it, now have builds that are simply too easy.

I could pay to respec again back to what I was originally and I would probably find the difficulty just right, but I shouldn't have needed to respec in the first place before the nerf and I shouldn't now need to do so again after.

So I sympathise with the OP and any others who can talk like adults, but I don't believe they went about this in the right way. I'm not saying they necessarily had any choice as they had to do something fast, I'm just pointing out why I preferred the old system with the build I'm now using.

In case I'm not making myself clear, I know that certain mobs might need certain skills slotted, certain dungeons might mean I need to swap a few skills etc. I know that when they say we can play as we like, they don't mean we can have whatever 5 random skills we want on our toolbars and walk through all content.

But someone who wanted to play a summoner before the game was released should have been able to cope with the content as a summoner, someone who wanted to use a bow as their main weapon, or wanted heavy armour or whatever, should have been able to cope with the content.,

Sure there's always a few very good players that can manage whatever the build, but for the everyday player the existing vet content was unbearable unless you had a few certain builds and that should never have been the case.

Likewise it should not now be the case that if you happen to have chosen one of those few builds that could do the original vet content, you now find it a faceroll.

---

Outstanding and insightful post Ojustaboo!

---

>>>"however they should have done some other sort of balancing where those other builds now found it fun and doable and people could cope with the content rather than dialing the entire difficulty down..."

---

Totally concur.

---

I completely disagree with: >>>"...I'm not saying they necessarily had any choice as they had to do something fast..." <<<

---

Zeni devs have made several changes modestly, ever so slightly, with a cautious eye toward balance and other consequences.

Are you/is anyone telling me Zeni could not have listened to players comments/emails/cs reports (*which didn't just start around July 1st by the way) about the supposed difficulty? Then ZOS could have responded by communicating that they were getting to work on some new and creative ideas to address it and carefully made a slight adjustment...the 'just a tad' their post prior to July 7 indicated???????????? And then subsequently in these further Phases coming up, added in the other new ideas, adjustments and content to address the V+ 1-10 area, STILL providing for it to be group-encouraged content as was advertised pre-launch of TESO?

Obvious suggestions made by a lot of awesome PvE players -- like lower the density of the 3 and more mob groupings, change loot rewards for grouping, add bonuses for grouping up that would provide more incentive for players to get into learning groups and learn/gear up/make contacts for when they arrive at endgame?

Subs bleeding in TESO have various reasons as we all know from personal anecdotal comments within guilds and from friends lists: base-class imbalances, stam-magic ratios, content weird stuff like how Craglorns' mobbies weren't ''as'' difficult as some lower Veteran content, exploits not being attended to in a timely manner, laggggggggggggggggggggggg issues -- lots of reasons have and are contributing to players halting or deleting their subs.

Losing subs is not just only because solo folks were unsubbing because they thought ZOS's original design, the plan and goals they spent money on in their forward focus groups well ahead of launch which confirmed their vision etc -- that it was wrong, and some players demand to be able to solo all leveling content all the way, all the time to endgame. Why not honor those solo-centric players then and add new cool content/quests etc for them?

I cannot fathom why ZOS simply diluted the vet content, and did so with little thought of the consequences for down the line into endgame. The nerfing of difficulty/access to content is absolutely a normal, traditional act done in a lot of MMO's as new expansions near etc.

But since 1999, I have never seen a company do it within three months of launch, nor against their own original promotion of core game elements, elements which many veteran MMO'rs who were active in fansites for months and years prior to the launch, and who used as a primary reason for buying and subbing to TESO the feature that Vet content would allow for some soloing, but that it would be primarily group-centric PvE content leading up to endgame. This is not the preferred way to be 'unique.'

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

gcalex5 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

I used to be and adventurer like you then I got out of school and had to work a real job and don't have time to be 1337 anymore

Ah the useful, polite and constructive post that I have come to love on this forum.

Anyway, speaking as a 50 year old casual player who still likes a good challenge and finds a good challenge relaxing,, My comments since the change.

From what I understand most people who didn't like the old vet content never made it to vet 2 or 3 before giving up, that being the case, I cant see how there would be a huge increase in players in the upper levels. I can understand a slight increase if a few players got that far before finally giving up, but to get that far, you would have to have had a build that works, hence should have been able to continue through the lot.

I'm currently in Greenshade which is a vet 3 (I think) area and have not really noticed any more players than before, which is what I would expect, I would imagine the vet 1 zones are now going to be much more busy if any.

I really really sympathise with those that struggled with it as there was something very very wrong with it. I'm still not convinced this is entirely down to difficulty though.


I couldn't survive or enjoy myself at all when I first reached vet with my two pets summoned and my bow as my second weapon, I simply didn't progress at all.

I am not the best player by a long way, have always been the butt of many guild jokes for doing silly things (by mistake) in raids etc on other MMOs and I can never get my head around working out the numbers to perfect the ultimate build.

I am anything but elitist and I play to have fun.

That said, I was always invited back to other raids ion my previous mmo so I couldn't have been that bad.

My point is, while nowhere near the best, while hating the "elitist" style player, I do know what I'm doing compared to people that have never played mmos, and I simply got sick of the vet content and honestly felt like giving up.

That being the case, I'm not surprised in the slightest that someone who has had no raiding experience and is used to solo games, found it totally impossible.

However,

A guildie pointed me to a sorc build on Reddit that I copied almost exactly, having to pay for a complete respec, and that made vet content a completely different and enjoyable experience.

3 mobs, I'd use "Weakening Prison" on one to stun it, and that usually gave me plenty of time to get the other two mobs down. I had a build that used zero stamina except for one skill. Once the two mobs were dead, I'd use "Weakening Prison" again on the 3rd mob (and if it broke free before I'd killed the other two) , then use "Dark Conversion" which uses stamina to restore my health and magic, and as that's the only skill that uses stamina, it's always available, hence when I attack the 3rd mob, I have full health and full magic.

That's one example of how my new build worked and it worked very very very well, it wasn't a walk in the park, but it didn't feel like I was banging my head against the wall.

However, obviously I am not now playing how I wanted. I got to level 50 without using the res staff at all, never equipped it, it's now my main weapon, I now no longer use the bow at all etc etc etc.

But I have got used to my new spec and I do like it and am sticking with it for now.

Trouble is, since the change, what was good fun using this build has now become a complete faceroll. This build is still awesome in other situations, when I'm doing dungeons etc with my guild, in Craglorn etc, but going through the other two alliances is now so much of a faceroll, I'm doing it as quick as I can just to get the Sky Shards etc, I would go further than that and say that with the odd exception, most of it is easier than some of the latter 1 - 49 quests were.

And that's the problem I have with the nerf. yes something needed to be done, it shouldn't have been just a few builds that the average person would find the content doable with, however they should have done some other sort of balancing where those other builds now found it fun and doable and people could cope with the content rather than dialling the entire difficulty down meaning those that had builds that could cope with it, now have builds that are simply too easy.

I could pay to respec again back to what I was originally and I would probably find the difficulty just right, but I shouldn't have needed to respec in the first place before the nerf and I shouldn't now need to do so again after.

So I sympathise with the OP and any others who can talk like adults, but I don't believe they went about this in the right way. I'm not saying they necessarily had any choice as they had to do something fast, I'm just pointing out why I preferred the old system with the build I'm now using.

In case I'm not making myself clear, I know that certain mobs might need certain skills slotted, certain dungeons might mean I need to swap a few skills etc. I know that when they say we can play as we like, they don't mean we can have whatever 5 random skills we want on our toolbars and walk through all content.

But someone who wanted to play a summoner before the game was released should have been able to cope with the content as a summoner, someone who wanted to use a bow as their main weapon, or wanted heavy armour or whatever, should have been able to cope with the content.,

Sure there's always a few very good players that can manage whatever the build, but for the everyday player the existing vet content was unbearable unless you had a few certain builds and that should never have been the case.

Likewise it should not now be the case that if you happen to have chosen one of those few builds that could do the original vet content, you now find it a faceroll.

---

Outstanding and insightful post Ojustaboo!

---

>>>"however they should have done some other sort of balancing where those other builds now found it fun and doable and people could cope with the content rather than dialing the entire difficulty down..."

---

Totally concur.

---

I completely disagree with: >>>"...I'm not saying they necessarily had any choice as they had to do something fast..." <<<

---

Zeni devs have made several changes modestly, ever so slightly, with a cautious eye toward balance and other consequences.

Are you/is anyone telling me Zeni could not have listened to players comments/emails/cs reports (*which didn't just start around July 1st by the way) about the supposed difficulty? Then ZOS could have responded by communicating that they were getting to work on some new and creative ideas to address it and carefully made a slight adjustment...the 'just a tad' their post prior to July 7 indicated???????????? And then subsequently in these further Phases coming up, added in the other new ideas, adjustments and content to address the V+ 1-10 area, STILL providing for it to be group-encouraged content as was advertised pre-launch of TESO?

Obvious suggestions made by a lot of awesome PvE players -- like lower the density of the 3 and more mob groupings, change loot rewards for grouping, add bonuses for grouping up that would provide more incentive for players to get into learning groups and learn/gear up/make contacts for when they arrive at endgame?

Subs bleeding in TESO have various reasons as we all know from personal anecdotal comments within guilds and from friends lists: base-class imbalances, stam-magic ratios, content weird stuff like how Craglorns' mobbies weren't ''as'' difficult as some lower Veteran content, exploits not being attended to in a timely manner, laggggggggggggggggggggggg issues -- lots of reasons have and are contributing to players halting or deleting their subs.

Losing subs is not just only because solo folks were unsubbing because they thought ZOS's original design, the plan and goals they spent money on in their forward focus groups well ahead of launch which confirmed their vision etc -- that it was wrong, and some players demand to be able to solo all leveling content all the way, all the time to endgame. Why not honor those solo-centric players then and add new cool content/quests etc for them?

I cannot fathom why ZOS simply diluted the vet content, and did so with little thought of the consequences for down the line into endgame. The nerfing of difficulty/access to content is absolutely a normal, traditional act done in a lot of MMO's as new expansions near etc.

But since 1999, I have never seen a company do it within three months of launch, nor against their own original promotion of core game elements, elements which many veteran MMO'rs who were active in fansites for months and years prior to the launch, and who used as a primary reason for buying and subbing to TESO the feature that Vet content would allow for some soloing, but that it would be primarily group-centric PvE content leading up to endgame. This is not the preferred way to be 'unique.'

I don't disagree with you at all, I was being over kind really with my comment you disagreed with, I feel the same as you in all honestly, just trying to talk myself in to believing it so that I don't feel so down about the change.

---

*Understood. I now drink glasses of good wine half empty rather than half full as was my wont when reading, researching, planning, drooling over graphics and all other time spent related to TESO the MMO prior to its launch. I just refill that adult beverage whenever I come upon topics related to the Vet Content nerf, which I had for some reason fully expected to be the 'tad' of an adjustment stated in the forums just prior to July 7th relating to the upcoming Vet Content changes. I know, c'est la vie in Tamriel now.

Kudo's to you for remaining positive Ojustaboo!

I am awaiting further changes in "Phases II, III, ad nauseum, looking for a kernel of positivity to grab hold of as concerns PvE Veteran grouping, leveling and endgame content in this four month old MMO.

Erock25 wrote: »

I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

I guess you think throwing dice is a challenge as well. You rolling two dice and seeing the result isn't skill.
Almost none of the previous VR content took skill or was a challenge, it was just stupidly frustrating.
I could take on 3 mob packs with almost no chance of my death, as long as I was the one who initiated combat. The problem was unless you had to, it just wasn't worth the time. You'd get more experience and loot, simply going after single or duo mob groups.
Then, there was always the great, you are fighting three mobs and a 3 pack of rats spawns on you and you die 100% of the time. That wasn't a challenge, that was idiotic.
Almost every one of my deaths in the prior VR content was by mob spawning on me, or bugged encounters. Having a boss sit there and heal itself over and over isn't a challenge. When the only way to beat that boss is run it again and again, until the boss doesn't just heal itself, is no different than throwing dice and hoping for a 12. There is no skill or challenge involved.

NerfEverything wrote: »

You say this is an MMO again, yet you did all the content solo. If the changes draw more players like you, I don't see the benefit.

Last night, in the VETERAN 10 zone, I was able to solo a public dungeon, two world bosses, and two dolomens, all without wearing any armor.

There is absolutely no need for social interaction now. PvE in this game has been reduced to a single player RPG, which is way too easy. At least a true single player RPG would have a difficulty slider.

Food buffs are optional, armor is optional, blocking is optional, paying attention is optional. If that is fun for you, then great. I want to feel a sense of accomplishment for doing VETERAN content.

Video or it didn't happen.

I have to agree with the OP. I made it to Vet 10 just before the update. Spent one day playing that zone before the patch last Monday just so I had a basis for what the changes were. I got my butt handed to me several times, especially since my character is a NB vampire.

Yes, there is a huge learning curve to Vet levels and learning the proper blocking etc. But there were still regular bosses there that could not be taken down without help. Usually at least 1-2 per zone. I found Vet to be a bit of a grind and tedious before the patch. I had to concentrate on where I was going and because of lag issues, there were many a time when enemies would just suddenly appear behind me out of thin air. It sucked, as it would be a hell of a battle I was unprepared for because nothing was there a second ago.

After the patch, I found that things were much more enjoyable. Not every battle was a struggle for your life and I found I was enjoying the story and environment more.

Additionally, I also noticed almost immediately, the zones started filling up with players again, which was nice as I didn't have to worry so much about finding two or three other players to do a Dolmen/WB run with.

It's kinda funny though, I went back last night and played my Alt who is currently a level 13 in it's first zone. There is a HUGE difference in enemy strength from That zone to Vet 1, that no wonder people have a heck of a learning curve as they go through. I also noticed.. I missed the Vet Zones and can't wait to get back there with this Alt.

Nice post!

oh man who resurrected this dead horse? tsk tsk.