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Thoughts on VR Changes After Completing Cadwell's Gold Yesterday (Long Post)

LonePirate
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After completing Cadwell's Silver a couple of weeks ago, I had been leisurely dividing my time between exploring and skyshard hunting in the VR6-10 zones and engaging in PVP in Cyrodiil. I consider myself to be an average, casual player who almost always plays and completes quests solo. I will lend a hand, though, if someone asks in zone chat, be it with a quest or dolmen or world boss. Still, the vast majority of my time in the Veteran zones has been as a solo player.

As such, I have learned (or tried to learn) how to survive on my own during fights and how to complete objectives without having someone there to cover my back and share the pain of the Veteran zones prior to Monday’s patch. I had to learn how to block and interrupt in order to survive. I learned how to play because there was no other choice when facing opponents that could easily deal 700-1000 damage in the blink of an eye – damage that sometimes could not be avoided even if I tried to block it. All of this super powered damage from mobs is what made the Veteran zones, especially the upper zones, extremely difficult and unenjoyable for me and other (solo) players.

In my VR travels, I learned not to fear any single mob unless they were a Storm Atronach or Harvester. Mob two packs almost never posed me a problem unless lag or a button mix-up or a personal mistake lost the fight for me. Mob three packs were a different story. In the VR7-10 zones, I would say I died over half of the time while trying to whittle a three pack down to two or one so I could finish them off. I always carried plenty of soul gems, VR5 Fortified Sweetrolls and other potions which I used liberally. I had to switch my 5/2 Heavy/Medium build to a 5/2 Light/Heavy build in order to survive even though I refused to give up my trusty bow and its awesome Focused Aim skill that paired nicely with Volcanic Rune. My destruction staff always remained my mop up weapon of choice.

I had already completed all of the VR6-7 delves along with the first one in my VR8 zone (Greenshade) when last Thursday’s announcement was made of the upcoming Veteran content changes. I decided I wanted to see how many of the remaining VR8-10 delves I could complete and how far along I could make it in the Cadwell’s Gold quest before the changes took place. I wanted the battle scars to prove that an average skilled player like me could survive the punishing VR6-10 zones while playing solo.

After playing several hours on Thursday and Friday, I was able to complete all of the remaining VR8-10 delves (17 in total). Of those 17, I completed 16 of them as a solo player with only one of them completed with another player who entered one of the VR9 delves shortly after me. Other than that one player, I only saw a small handful of other players during my hours in these upper VR zones. The zones were dead empty. Nothing was being said in chat and the zones looked completely abandoned. I couldn’t receive any help if I needed it because there was no one around to help. I had to survive those VR10 trolls in one Reaper’s March delve without anyone to help me. I fought hard to earn that Explorer Achievement for clearing all of the delves in all three alliances and in Cyrodiil; yet it was very painful and exhausting. It was not fun at all. It’s no wonder so many people hated the VR content because it was far more difficult and unenjoyable than any game should be.

I then went back to my VR6 zone (Auridon) and I started tackling the Cadwell’s Gold quests. After being bloodied and beaten to a pulp in the VR8-10 delves, the VR6 quests were a refreshing change of pace with the slightly easier hitting mobs and the lower mob density. I struggled a little but not much. I completed all of the VR6 Cadwell quests solo – like usual – and I moved to VR7 Grahtwood. The quests and bosses there were tougher but I was still battle seasoned so it felt much easier by comparison. I completed the Cadwell quests in VR7 Grahtwood and moved on to VR8 Greenshade where reality slapped me in the face.

The first Cadwell quest to defeat the wood orcs was amazingly difficult. The cave housing the boss was filled with mob three packs and the boss himself had two minions with him, one of whom dropped an anti-magicka banner. I lost count of the number of times I died while trying to learn the fight and to defeat the three of them as they showed a resistance to my DK Standard ultimate skill. It was a horrible experience and I felt only relief when I finally completed it. The remaining seven (!) Cadwell quests in this zone seemed easy by comparison, although many of them were very challenging when completing them solo. I racked up some four digit repair bills and I had to purchase a new stack of empty soul gems which I had to fill – a task which was way more fun than those VR8 quests.

On late Sunday afternoon, I finally completed the final Cadwell quest in VR8 Greenshade and moved to VR9 Malabal Tor. I received a group invite about half way through the completion of the first Cadwell quest which made finishing that quest a breeze. It was the only Cadwell quest in my VR6-10 zones I completed with another player. It gave me a false sense of security as every other Cadwell quest in this zone was an absolute horror. The final fight against The Hound and his constant spawn of werewolves was easily the most difficult encounter I have had in this entire game. It was nightmarish as no one in zone or guild chat was around to help or offer tips. Previous cheats of pulling him away from the werewolf spawn point had been fixed so there was no solution at hand. I must have modified my skill bar at least ten times and I died 25 or more times in this fight before somehow defeating him. I still have no idea how I did it and I am unsure if I could
defeat him again with his stats prior to Monday.

It was now very early Monday morning before the patch so I tried the first VR10 Reaper’s March Cadwell quest. Perhaps due to exhaustion and game frustration, I couldn’t survive the waves of 2-3 black shadowy mobs that spawned while closing the portals at Fort Grimwatch so I quit for the night. The quests in these last three VR zones were simply not fun at all.

I restarted the Cadwell quests in VR10 Reaper’s March after Monday’s patch and I loved what I discovered. Mobs were only doing about 50% of the damage they were doing the night before. They still were not pushovers but they did not make me rage and fume with anger when I battled them. I was able to survive fights against mob three packs without dying, unless I did something stupid like aggravate a second mob or fail to weapon swap or heal in time. My character actually felt powerful again. I forgot to apply a food buff until about halfway through one of the Cadwell quests and I loved that I was not required to use the buff in order to survive and complete content. The quests were fun again as I died less during all of the VR10 Cadwell quests combined than I did during any single VR9 Cadwell quest.

I was able to relax and enjoy the wonderful quest stories about the twin sisters and the two moons. I soaked up the beauty of the zone without a sense of dread that consumed me. I was loving the game again – a feeling I had not had since defeating Molag Bal. This was the ESO game I wanted to experience. I enjoy video games for the stories, characters, game design, game play and overall experience. This game now gives that to me. Before Monday’s patch, the game was little more than a very brutal and painful slugfest that was far more challenging and unenjoyable than it had any right to be. It was not a fun game to play in the Veteran zones until now, that is.

I completed all of the VR10 Cadwell quests solo like usual but I started seeing other players in the zone as I traversed it – something I did not see when I completed the delves in the zone a few days earlier. There were even discussions in zone chat. I entered the public dungeons in both VR9 Malabal Tor and VR10 Reaper’s March and I actually saw several other players moving through them. We helped each other complete quests and achieve the group challenges. Over the course of a single patch (or day), the VR zones went from being ghost towns to showing signs of life. I know some people absolutely loved the insane difficulty of the VR zones; but they were few and far between. I never saw these people in the zone or in zone chat. They never answered my pleas for help with The Hound. Where were these people? If nothing else, this VR content change has breathed some desperately needed life into the upper VR zones.

With this patch, this game has gone from being an unpleasant online exercise in masochism to being an MMO again. I am now optimistic about this game’s future as it is fun again as the average player can take their time and look around a little without fear for their lives. Food buffs and potions are now optional for completing content – just like they should be. They should never be required like they were before Monday. Yeah, VR10 Storm Atronachs are still a death sentence but there is a glimmer of hope when fighting them solo now. I am now looking forward to completing the quest Adventurer achievements in my VR6-10 zones as this game is no longer a chore. It is a game I want and love to play now.

This VR content change is wonderful and I want to say thank you to ZOS for making it. I much prefer the new VR content to what existed prior to Monday’s patch. I think I still have some PTSD from this past weekend as the previous content was nightmarish for a solo player like myself – a solo player by necessity due to the empty zones. Thankfully that is fading. I hope those who oppose the VR content change will give the game a chance and look at the bigger picture – which is more people playing and enjoying the game. That is possible now. I want more content in these zones. I want more zones and new levels. I think this VR content change will draw more players to the game which can only make things better for us all.
  • Erock25
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    I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
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  • polar
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    Good post, OP! I completely agree.
    Edited by polar on July 8, 2014 6:42PM
    Polar Nightshade

    Guild Master of The Noore
    thenoore.net
  • Lord_Draevan
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    People have been calculating the changes to VR since patch, enemies have 16% less health and deal 30% less damage.

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1088828

    I completed all VR zones solo before the patch with a two-handed DK heavy armor (except for group dungeons/world bosses/anchors). I died often against 3 mobs, but did it anyways and had fun. This change does not bother me, however. It's still harder than 1-50 zones, which is fine by me.
    Edited by Lord_Draevan on July 8, 2014 6:53PM
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  • NerfEverything
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    You say this is an MMO again, yet you did all the content solo. If the changes draw more players like you, I don't see the benefit.

    Last night, in the VETERAN 10 zone, I was able to solo a public dungeon, two world bosses, and two dolomens, all without wearing any armor.

    There is absolutely no need for social interaction now. PvE in this game has been reduced to a single player RPG, which is way too easy. At least a true single player RPG would have a difficulty slider.

    Food buffs are optional, armor is optional, blocking is optional, paying attention is optional. If that is fun for you, then great. I want to feel a sense of accomplishment for doing VETERAN content.
  • MongooseOne
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    What are these Cadwell quest you speak of? For Cadwells Silver mine only says something like Get to know people of Gelumbra or some such, it doesn't list any specific quests to follow.
  • Lunerdog
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    Excellent post OP and I'm sure that echos the feelings and thoughts of many others, I too noticed people in the zones this afternoon and shared thankyou's and well done's at Dolmens and world bosses etc.

    Was rather enjoyable and a step in the right direction.
  • nerevarine1138
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    What are these Cadwell quest you speak of? For Cadwells Silver mine only says something like Get to know people of Gelumbra or some such, it doesn't list any specific quests to follow.

    Those steps are referring to specific quests. Basically, if you want to finish Cadwell's Almanac, you only need to complete the main faction questline in each region (and I think maybe one or two major side hubs).
    ----
    Murray?
  • LariahHunding
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    What are these Cadwell quest you speak of? For Cadwells Silver mine only says something like Get to know people of Gelumbra or some such, it doesn't list any specific quests to follow.

    On the Journal Tab, there will be a Caldwell button beside the quest list button. It will list the necessary quests.

    "Give a man a sweet roll, he only has one to steal. Give him a sweet roll recipe, he have bunches to steal."

  • Firestar_
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    I am also glad to see these changes. As a casual player, I don't research for hours on end what the best build is, what the best gear is, how to max out stats etc.

    I just don't have time. I prefer just enjoying the game because it's just that- a game. In a world that I prefer.

    Once I hit 50 on my first character, I literally had to stop and wait for my friends to catch up. I was very very disappointed that I couldn't solo as I liked. That my choices were to wait or become a serious player, research everything, make the best build etc. all to experience VR content.

    I now have two VR1 characters and just yesterday, the last of a group of four finished killing Molag Bal. Today I get to enjoy my solo content until the four of us are online again and we can band together for a public dungeon.
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  • Gothic
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    Fantastic original post! Kudos to you, sir or ma'am.

    There is such a wealth of lore and history in Elder Scrolls games that can be so fun and rewarding to discover. I think that there should be challenging and rewarding content that requires teamwork and coordination. That's a feature exclusive to MMO's, and there's no reason Zenimax shouldn't keep doing what they are doing with the harder content.

    Me? I like developing a single character, and exploring the world on that same character and soaking up the lore, atmosphere, and experience. Leave the open world and delves to us folks who just want to wander and explore, but keep making the harder stuff with the phat lewtz for people who like challenging content.
  • Lonestryder
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    Erock25 wrote: »
    I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

    OP, nice writeup!

    Sadly, I have to agree with the quote here.

    Still, nice writing style :smile:
  • Audigy
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    While I disagree with you OP, like in regards of a higher pop (not here) or too hard for Casuals (not here), you at least didn't flame everyone who did like the old zones.

    I still have to warn you though and give you a tiny bit of advice. Try to learn what you can until VR 12, once there people will demand that you know your Char inside out, that you do specific tasks like block, dodge or intercept and as sooner you learn this, as better it will be for you at VR 12.
  • Guppet
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    You say this is an MMO again, yet you did all the content solo. If the changes draw more players like you, I don't see the benefit.

    Last night, in the VETERAN 10 zone, I was able to solo a public dungeon, two world bosses, and two dolomens, all without wearing any armor.

    There is absolutely no need for social interaction now. PvE in this game has been reduced to a single player RPG, which is way too easy. At least a true single player RPG would have a difficulty slider.

    Food buffs are optional, armor is optional, blocking is optional, paying attention is optional. If that is fun for you, then great. I want to feel a sense of accomplishment for doing VETERAN content.

    Post a video of you soloing a VR10 dolman naked, or shut your pie hole.

    He was solo while leveling as there was no one about.
  • LonePirate
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    Audigy wrote: »
    I still have to warn you though and give you a tiny bit of advice. Try to learn what you can until VR 12, once there people will demand that you know your Char inside out, that you do specific tasks like block, dodge or intercept and as sooner you learn this, as better it will be for you at VR 12.

    I hit VR12 long ago and I already know how to block, dodge and interrupt. For me at least, those things did not stop a flying dagger that could come from any of three mobs or a perpetual red carpet of doom that was at my feet and left me with no place to move. Before Monday, those upper VR zone mob three packs were epic battles of guaranteed pain and suffering. There was no fun to be had with them. As of now, that feeling is no longer the case for me.

    @Erock25 The upper VR zones were a psychological torture experiment before Monday. They were not a challenge because there was no fun to be had when experiencing and completing them. Molag Bal was a fun challenge. Many of the VR bosses were a fun challenge. PVP is a fun challenge. The VR trash mobs were nowhere in the vicinity of a fun challenge. They were ESO's equivalent of something that violates the Geneva Conventions. Perhaps you are more masochistic than I am, though.
  • Lonestryder
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    Someone once said that the definition of adventure is danger and discomfort recollected in tranquility.

    The OP's post reads exactly like that, so I'd call his/her experience (as related here) an adventure.

    I think that's one of the issues to be considered when balancing the rest of the game: some people play for adventure, others for peace and quiet.

    I play mostly for adventure and don't mind having to go out and look for it (that's part of the, um, adventure). I see this as two sides of the same coin, however and I do not see any conflict - we can have both, but it will take some critical thinking and perhaps even an innovative idea or two.
    Edited by Lonestryder on July 8, 2014 8:27PM
  • NerfEverything
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Post a video of you soloing a VR10 dolman naked, or shut your pie hole.

    It was boring enough that FRAPsing it didn't even cross my mind. But you don't need a video, just log in to the game and walk around a bit. I saw 5-10 people questing naked yesterday. The public dungeon was actually interesting enough to make into a video. I did have to block and pay attention when taking on 6 V10 mobs, but I could still do it naked & without food buffs.
  • LonePirate
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    Someone once said that the definition of adventure is danger and discomfort recollected in tranquility.

    The OP's post reads exactly like that, so I'd call his/her experience (as related here) an adventure.

    I think that's one of the issues to be considered when balancing the rest of the game: some people play for adventure, others for peace and quiet.

    I play mostly for adventure and don't mind having to go out and look for it (that's part of the, um, adventure). I see this as two sides of the same coin, however and I do not see any conflict - we can have both, but it will take some critical thinking and perhaps even an innovative idea or two.

    Very nice post!

    For me, the ideal solution to the VR problem would have been the inclusion of companions you could hire that would accompany you on your journeys and the absurd difficulty of the content could remain in place for those few hardcore elitists who actually enjoyed it. The cost of hiring the companion effectively reduces the reward of the quest without requiring a new reward tier.

    For whatever reason, ZOS decided the HP/damage reductions for VR mobs was the best way to go. I support this change because I think it will be a beneficial one overall. Once all of the class/weapon/armor/skills have been balanced, then maybe ZOS can implement a slight buff to the content.
  • Guppet
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Post a video of you soloing a VR10 dolman naked, or shut your pie hole.

    It was boring enough that FRAPsing it didn't even cross my mind. But you don't need a video, just log in to the game and walk around a bit. I saw 5-10 people questing naked yesterday. The public dungeon was actually interesting enough to make into a video. I did have to block and pay attention when taking on 6 V10 mobs, but I could still do it naked & without food buffs.

    So to be clear, you can't provide a video of your wild boast? Okay, think I smell something. There must be a bull near me as I smell bull sheet.
  • kieso
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    Erock25 wrote: »
    I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

    You should try challenging things in real life instead; that way the feeling of accomplishment is valid.
  • Jaxom
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    Very nice read. For a large number of people, it was just what was needed to keep the populations at a reasonable level. Before the patch, it was awful trying to finish anything in the VR8-10 zones. Last week we had a group doing World Bosses and Dolmens in the VR 9 zone and there were 4 of us. That was the entire zone of people. 4. Clearly something was tweaked a bit too much.

    Now, I finished Cadwell's Gold well before this patch happened and enjoyed the difficulty like others, but what's the point if there is no one else to play with. I do think the sense for achievement will drop a bit but this is the norm with MMOs. Content that was once hard, is easier and new challenges will arise.

    I can't say how proud I was when I killed that b!tch at the end of the DC zone (VR10). Nothing like trying to kill her and her army of 20 with overtuned mobs on a NB.

  • Tavore1138
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    I finished Cadwell last week (stamina NB ftw) and today I have been filling in some of the side quests for that achievement. I don't do addons so I can only judge by how it feels.

    So I have been in the rift at VR10 and it doesn't feel stupid easy.

    Mobs of 3 or 4 are still going to challenge a decent player, boss battles or battles with repeated waves are still going to lead to deaths if you do not do it right, sometimes even if you do.

    Perhaps for some classes who I will not name it is now too easy, if you are extra lucky they will balance out your power and you will feel challenged again :)

    For the true experts it is going to be too easy, but games don't survive off the subs of the few. So I sympathise but they are trying to run a business and that means they need a good player base.

    I admit to mild regret as after all the frustration and rage of the VR zones getting to the end of it in 'hard' mode gave a feeling of satisfaction which perhaps will be reduced but for most normal players this is still going to be a challenge that will keep them interested but hopefully not endlessly frustrated.
    Edited by Tavore1138 on July 8, 2014 8:54PM
  • NerfEverything
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Guppet wrote: »
    Post a video of you soloing a VR10 dolman naked, or shut your pie hole.

    It was boring enough that FRAPsing it didn't even cross my mind. But you don't need a video, just log in to the game and walk around a bit. I saw 5-10 people questing naked yesterday. The public dungeon was actually interesting enough to make into a video. I did have to block and pay attention when taking on 6 V10 mobs, but I could still do it naked & without food buffs.

    So to be clear, you can't provide a video of your wild boast? Okay, think I smell something. There must be a bull near me as I smell bull sheet.

    I'm sorry if it is difficult for you to comprehend how easy VR content is now. I have a hard time comprehending how anyone could be struggling with it right now. If you can find some VR content that you find challenging, and make a video of yourself struggling with it, then I will go and do the exact same content naked and make a video of it. How does that sound?
  • liquid_wolf
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    I love your post.
  • Guppet
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    Guppet wrote: »
    Guppet wrote: »
    Post a video of you soloing a VR10 dolman naked, or shut your pie hole.

    It was boring enough that FRAPsing it didn't even cross my mind. But you don't need a video, just log in to the game and walk around a bit. I saw 5-10 people questing naked yesterday. The public dungeon was actually interesting enough to make into a video. I did have to block and pay attention when taking on 6 V10 mobs, but I could still do it naked & without food buffs.

    So to be clear, you can't provide a video of your wild boast? Okay, think I smell something. There must be a bull near me as I smell bull sheet.

    I'm sorry if it is difficult for you to comprehend how easy VR content is now. I have a hard time comprehending how anyone could be struggling with it right now. If you can find some VR content that you find challenging, and make a video of yourself struggling with it, then I will go and do the exact same content naked and make a video of it. How does that sound?

    You are the one making wild claims, I have claimed nothing. If you did it once, you can go out and do it again. If you don't do it, you are admitting that all you chat is utter garbage. You put yourself in this position, now post a video or admit you were talking out if your bum.
    Edited by Guppet on July 8, 2014 9:03PM
  • Erock25
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    kieso wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

    You should try challenging things in real life instead; that way the feeling of accomplishment is valid.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
    LonePirate wrote: »
    @Erock25 The upper VR zones were a psychological torture experiment before Monday. They were not a challenge because there was no fun to be had when experiencing and completing them. Molag Bal was a fun challenge. Many of the VR bosses were a fun challenge. PVP is a fun challenge. The VR trash mobs were nowhere in the vicinity of a fun challenge. They were ESO's equivalent of something that violates the Geneva Conventions. Perhaps you are more masochistic than I am, though.

    I do not know about all that. Pre-nerf I had solo'd every world boss, dolmen, delve up through the second zone of the second VR faction and making my way through the trash to these events were the least of my troubles. I couldn't complete a few of the group delves. Of course, I couldn't use my preferred loadout (melee weapons and med armor) which was a bummer, but I saw that as a problem with melee/medium armor and not a problem with VR difficulty.
    Edited by ZOS_SilviaS on July 8, 2014 10:05PM
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
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  • reggielee
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    wonderful post. congrats to you. you easily could have taken the road of 'i did it and everyone else are lazy unskilled worthless scum' like many others have posted, but you didnt. You saw what eso was trying to do, nice to see another viewpoint on the debate
    Mama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.
  • steveb16_ESO46
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    You say this is an MMO again, yet you did all the content solo. If the changes draw more players like you, I don't see the benefit.

    Zenimax see the benefit. This is what it looks like.

    $$$$$.

  • BrassRazoo
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    I had finished VR10 weeks ago, Caldwells Gold, 50++ whatever you want to call it.
    Last night I actually enjoyed myself for the first time in ages as I decided to bother to fight mobs instead of riding around them.
    I was just wondering around Reapers March (EP VR10).
    To difficulty was just a drag, not impossible, but a real bloody bore.
    Maybe make one or two zones, difficult zones, but doing 10 zones in hardcore mode was killing it for many.
  • gcalex5
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    Erock25 wrote: »
    I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

    I used to be and adventurer like you then I got out of school and had to work a real job and don't have time to be 1337 anymore
  • Firestar_
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    kieso wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    I guess the difference between you and me is that I like a challenge.

    You should try challenging things in real life instead; that way the feeling of accomplishment is valid.

    This is where I sit. My job and RL are challenging enough as it is. I use games to relax.

    As a child where nothing IRL was a challenge or stimulating? Hell yes, Dark soul-esque games all day long!
    I could afford to drop those 60+ hours into an RPG because as a kid, I needed that kind of stimulation because there was no other way to get that feeling of power. I'd print out walkthroughs, ways to max stats, even grind out "cheat" things that took insane hours like Skyrim's max potion-> max Enchant->max Armor->done or FF7's Chocobo breeding.

    As a kid, mindless grinding and min/maxing so I could beat that ridiculously difficult boss was fun.

    Now it's just too much damned work to be fun.
    Firestar - Imperial Templar - Ebonheart Pact
    Reasons-For-War - Argonian Dragonknight - Ebonheart Pact
    Pearl Winterstone - Orc Sorcerer - Ebonheart Pact
    Jerro - Dunmer Nightblade - Daggerfall Covenant
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