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The tyranny of the minority? Why is Zennimax changing Vet Content?
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steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭TLDR - the only reason they are changing stuff is their financial projections aren't looking good. Nothing that is said or done on these forums cause them to do anything.4 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭well idk about the majority saying no. You really cant base them off of just the polls. a lot of people don't even vote in those. and there are people in the zone chats that were complaining about it being too hard(I myself did not see it a lot, but I did see it, and you can see it on the forums too on things besides polls)Edited by Cody on July 7, 2014 3:39PM0 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭flintstone wrote: »Vet zones are empty zones. Why don't you (so called majority) people populate them? Where is this majority?........where do they play?
1-50 zones are populated.
Umm .. Craglorn. Why would I do VR zones for crap quest rewards and very slow xp when I can get purples and level twenty times faster and actually have people to play with and talk to?
And you don't see a problem with this?
Interesting.3 -
Nathano✭✭✭
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I personally love difficult content and think the difficult dungeons in this game are the best I have come across for a long time. The thing is dungeons are optional content so they can make them hard because people aren't forced to do them. However veteran zones are mandatory since all new content being released is for VR12+, so you will get people who want to experience the new content but will give up because they can't get through the VR zones.steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »Most games manage to cater for a range of players by having optional harder content.
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whvice✭✭✭So zen opted to follow the whims of the "minority" & disregard the "majority".
Where is your God now?New troll here1 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zenimax is changing the Vet content because the Majority told them too. Not the Minority. The Minority wants it to remain the same.
Couldn't be more wrong if you tried.☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
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"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB5 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭The majority of negative posts on the forums, does not indicate a majority in the game. The game and the forums are two very different places.
Have to agree with you Dayel. I seriously wonder though if customer service tickets sent in, plus forum input played any part in providing them with enough data to decide NOT TO POST A SHORT POLL AT LOG-IN OVER A FEW DAYS PERIOD.
That would have provided a LOT larger sample compiled of different and more defined representation of player population and their position on the topic with regard to the issue of nerfing mobs by such a large amount in Vet 1 through 10 areas?. Other mmo's have utilized it so I'm sure it could have been one avenue which could have been followed.
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kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭flintstone wrote: »Vet zones are empty zones. Why don't you (so called majority) people populate them? Where is this majority?........where do they play?
1-50 zones are populated.
Umm .. Craglorn. Why would I do VR zones for crap quest rewards and very slow xp when I can get purples and level twenty times faster and actually have people to play with and talk to?
And you don't see a problem with this?
Interesting.
Nope not at all. The people that want to grind can and the ones that want to quest can. The questers can get all the extra skyshards and skillpoints. I already have one guy with over 250 skill points that did all the quests so he also does all the crafting. I just see no reason to repeat all those quests on alts that have already done them and have plenty of skill points for my spec.0 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭what these people that wanted it super easy don't understand is that the problem wasn't veteran difficulty it was there weapon or class builds.
There is a reason sorcs and DKs think its easy (because it is) they skipped by actually fixing weapon abilities and class balance with a blanket fix. When these guys actually get to craglorn and end game and they simply can't do anything will we nerf again? or do we actually have plans to fix it by then?3 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I personally love difficult content and think the difficult dungeons in this game are the best I have come across for a long time. The thing is dungeons are optional content so they can make them hard because people aren't forced to do them. However veteran zones are mandatory since all new content being released is for VR12+, so you will get people who want to experience the new content but will give up because they can't get through the VR zones.steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »Most games manage to cater for a range of players by having optional harder content.
But lo'...now they can get through the VR 1- 10 zones more easily and more quickly of course, and prepare for infamy in a not-good way when they reach VR12+/new content incoming in future months.
Wait. Unless of course ZOS 'changes the difficulty just a tad' for new content coming and whatever their first expansion looks like.
Oh no -- they just nerfed V+1-10 thats all. They wouldn't go even further and nerf down V+11-12 content...naw, they wouldn't do that, would they?
Wonder what Phase II contains...o-0?
Well, we'll for sure know when we get the published, detailed and complete Patch notes coming very soon...no worries at all.
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kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭IMO the difficulty isn't the problem it is that they are really slow and boring. I actually like the difficulty and I did it all on a NB before any of the buffs. It was refreshing to have something be a challenge.
Looking at a bar needing over 3,000,000 xp and getting 10,000 from a quest that just took 20 minutes is not fun at all.1 -
liquid_wolf✭✭✭✭"Is VR content too hard."
No.
"Is VR content enjoyable?"
No.
It is very simple to see why it was changed. We can speculate all we want, but I believe they are simply trying to get more people into upper VR and PvP content faster.
Why?
Because when they release new content, they want the majority of the players to be experiencing it.3 -
slasb16_ESO✭✭✭The Vet grind in ESO isn't difficult, it's simply boring as hell. That's why most people left and that's why these changes will accomplish nothing, because they do not address the boredom. In fact, as some people have indicated, these changes will probably increase the boredom, surprisingly enough.
Note to developers, you have a massive problem with end game pve progression because the itemization is fixed due to pvp constraints.Edited by slasb16_ESO on July 7, 2014 4:34PM2 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭Keep in mind that a lot of the ones saying veteran content is fine, have already completed their leveling, while I am willing to bet most of the ones saying it is too hard are still leveling. So in reality, Zenimax is ignoring the people who won't be affected anyway, for the most part.
Personally, I liked the challenge level for VR content, but a lot of other people (particularly nightblades from what I gather) were struggling to the point of losing interest.
Not a change I like, but I can see why they would make this decision.0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People "just" wanted these fixes.
Nerfing content won't make the grinding any less boring, won't make the roleplay any less laughable.
Actually, by speeding up people to VR 12, all what ZoS will achieve is a temporary relief, but once many are VR 12 and find out that there's precious little to do, the exoduss will take biblic proportions.
When I was playing closed beta, a friend told me: "this game will be forced to go F2P within a year". I called him a fool...
... now I fear the fool was me.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Dusty5✭✭✭This is a copy of the warcrap plan to player management. Non-stop nerfs and iwin buttons for all. The goal? to get all the kiddies on line by way of mommy and daddy's wallet. All you have to do is throw the adult gamer under the bus and forget about their needs.1
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Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The silent majority is exactly that, the Majority.
They don't vote in polls on forums, they vote with their feet and their wallets, Zen will do as any business will do and follow the money.
Exactly, you are spot on there my friend. Does anybody really believe that Zenimax would be doing these changes without a damn good reason? They wouldn't be doing it based on some forum poll, that's for sure. The only reason they are making these changes is to spark interest and try to populate the VR zones with players again. Granted, there are a lot of other changes they need to do to improve the VR content, but in the meantime, this is the easiest thing they can do to get players back they may have lost before because of the VR grind.
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Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
Exactly, you are spot on there my friend. Does anybody really believe that Zenimax would be doing these changes without a damn good reason? They wouldn't be doing it based on some forum poll, that's for sure. The only reason they are making these changes is to spark interest and try to populate the VR zones with players again. Granted, there are a lot of other changes they need to do to improve the VR content, but in the meantime, this is the easiest thing they can do to get players back they may have lost before because of the VR grind.
You have far too much faith in ZoS. They had all that time in BETA to address the problems with the game that were reported pre launch but didn't. This is a knee jerk reaction to falling subs under the assumption that difficulty is the main reason. Its not. I don't believe for a minute that the majority of those that have unsubed did so due to the difficulty. Not when there was a hundred other issues that are also present in the game.
They have lost subs for FPS issues (especially in cryo)
They have lost subs for Lag issues (especially in trials)
They have lost subs for boring vet grind issues
They have lost subs for poor customer support
They have lost subs for log in issues (301)
......
I could go on.
The point is, no one I have ever spoke to said they are or have unsubed due to difficulty.
Edited by Hilgara on July 7, 2014 4:48PM4 -
Ojustaboo✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Exactly, you are spot on there my friend. Does anybody really believe that Zenimax would be doing these changes without a damn good reason? They wouldn't be doing it based on some forum poll, that's for sure. The only reason they are making these changes is to spark interest and try to populate the VR zones with players again. Granted, there are a lot of other changes they need to do to improve the VR content, but in the meantime, this is the easiest thing they can do to get players back they may have lost before because of the VR grind.
You have far too much faith in ZoS. They had all that time in BETA to address the problems with the game that were reported pre launch but didn't. This is a knee jerk reaction to falling subs under the assumption that difficulty is the main reason. Its not. I don't believe for a minute that the majority of those that have unsubed did so due to the difficulty. Not when there was a hundred other issues that are also present in the game.
They have lost subs for FPS issues (especially in cryo)
They have lost subs for Lag issues (especially in trials)
They have lost subs for boring vet grind issues
They have lost subs for poor customer support
They have lost subs for log in issues (301)
......
I could go on.
The point is, no one I have ever spoke to said they are or have unsubed due to difficulty.
And they just lost my sub for the vet nerf, was happy to pay as it was different to all the other mmos out there, but now this is going the same old way.
A week ago I would have said I would be here for years, 1 - 50 was far too easy, I was liking the vet content.
Sure it needed a lot of work, certain classes being fairly useless there, but the overall difficulty was never the problem.
Last night in Grahtwood, I died a couple of times in the evening, both due to my mistakes, 2 mobs were easy, I rarely had to think, 3 mobs I had to concentrate, more I had to be very careful but it was fun. I completed the dungeon like quest in the Bone
Orchard, I died once and that was me being stupid.
I am far far far from a good player. But I like having to think, having to concentrate, going through content simply pressing one or two buttons isn't fun and there's plenty of mmos not requiring subs that I can do that if I want.
I've been looking forward to ESO for years based on what the devs etc have said, it wasn't going to follow the crowd. Sadly that doesn't appear to be the case.
Edited by Ojustaboo on July 7, 2014 4:57PM3 -
NerfEverything✭✭✭✭✭The point is, no one I have ever spoke to said they are or have unsubed due to difficulty.
Same here. Every other reason, yes, but never due to difficulty.
It was an easy-out for them though. Tweaking HP and Damage of Vet mobs takes 3 seconds. Making Vet content interesting and rewarding could take 3 months.2 -
Logan9a✭✭✭POST A SHORT POLL AT LOG-IN OVER A FEW DAYS PERIOD.
Why game developers choose to listen to the people on the forums instead of making a poll that pops up during log in (hey, want 200xp? Do our short poll and help us improve the game!) has always struck me as 'lazy' and 'short sighted'.
Not just for this issue but any issue.
It would also be nice to use as a gentle tap against the people on the forums.
"Hey, we'd love to change X to Y but an overwhelming 83% of the people said in the poll (date) they like X to be X. Sorry, maybe in the future."
But no.
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Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Exactly, you are spot on there my friend. Does anybody really believe that Zenimax would be doing these changes without a damn good reason? They wouldn't be doing it based on some forum poll, that's for sure. The only reason they are making these changes is to spark interest and try to populate the VR zones with players again. Granted, there are a lot of other changes they need to do to improve the VR content, but in the meantime, this is the easiest thing they can do to get players back they may have lost before because of the VR grind.
You have far too much faith in ZoS. They had all that time in BETA to address the problems with the game that were reported pre launch but didn't. This is a knee jerk reaction to falling subs under the assumption that difficulty is the main reason. Its not. I don't believe for a minute that the majority of those that have unsubed did so due to the difficulty. Not when there was a hundred other issues that are also present in the game.
They have lost subs for FPS issues (especially in cryo)
They have lost subs for Lag issues (especially in trials)
They have lost subs for boring vet grind issues
They have lost subs for poor customer support
They have lost subs for log in issues (301)
......
I could go on.
The point is, no one I have ever spoke to said they are or have unsubed due to difficulty.
absolutely agree. I had an entire guild of 14 people come over and I am the only one left.
This was a CASUAL group of people i brought over from other games.
Not a single one said they left because it was too hard. In fact the only thing they did like is that it took at least a small bit of skill.1 -
Ojustaboo✭✭✭✭✭
✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Because everyone knows the views of those who post on web forums are a totally reliable measure of the playerbase as a whole .. FACTS, such as statistics ZOS have about player behaviour don't count.richard.a.ellisb16_ESO wrote: »It is interesting as we face the upcoming changes to Veteran content that there are two (2) polls on this forum asking if veteran content is too difficult. In both cases approximately 60% of the population says No it is not.
OK.
I'm pretty sure that ZOS have looked at far more than a couple of polls in a forum whose population is a trivially small percentage of players and a highly self-selecting one at that, that's a great way to gauge opinion across hundreds of thousands of players.
People often say Zenimax don't make decisions based on forum feedback etc, but then I look at the starter island fiasco and completely disagree with them.0 -
ozgod22_eso✭✭✭What they are probably doing is retuning the vet zones to make them easier for solo players to complete. They are probably finding in their research that many more players are trying to do Craglorn and other zones as solo players, and may be finding it too hard to find groups.
Also, most content tends to get detuned after the initial launch. Because these days MMO developers want to appeal to as broad a cross section of players as possible, including casual players who may not have the time or skill. The Trials will still be there as the skills check for PvE content.Edited by ozgod22_eso on July 7, 2014 5:05PM0 -
Brutalis✭✭Polls offer the ability to give your opinion through anonymity. This allows our sometimes ill perceived view of ourselves to make a non-commited decision. Meaning, most wont admit the game is too hard for themselves, so "check boxing" is an easy way of validation.
As others have stated it was probably the number of posts regarding the subject that got Zen's attention. I'm assuming of course.A Roman walks into a bar and hold up two fingers and says, "I'll have five beers please."0 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭My guess from playing half dozen different MMO's over the past ~10 years is that the bads who get things nerfed in games are because they are a paying customer too. They also tend to cry the loudest and most often and even threaten the game company with canceled subs if they don't nerf this or that. There are some game companies out there that won't listen to bads at all like CCP of Eve Online, but sadly they are few and far between. Balancing will always need to be done in MMO's from day 1 until right before the game closes. Nerfs however are rarely NEEDED but too often used as a "balancing" tool.
ZoS has stuck to it's guns on some issues so far, like a global AH. Here's to hoping that once they are done balancing VR that (after it's all done) we find it's actually an improved experience. We have no idea what exactly ZoS is doing to VR overall. It's not like they made some blanket statement that they're reducing all VR enemy difficulty by a static 50% or anything that horrible.0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭I seriously don't get what the big deal is. Who cares if mid-level quests are easier? What difference doesn't it make? Put on level 1 armor and weapons and bam it is harder. You guys are worse than the ones who complained about it being to hard at least they had a legit gripe.
OMG this questing isn't hard enough I'm going to unsub .. really?3