While it is a viable option, don't expect the reward for refusing the buff to be any better than using it otherwise those lazy players will just complain again that their rewards for using the buff isn't worth it and demand better rewards making those who don't use it just quit.

Although vet does need some tweaking, it really doesn't need to be nerfed in terms of difficulty, those currently struggling with vet are simply unwilling to adapt to harder difficulty, they are unwilling to accept that their struggle is their own doing and blame the developer. Calling us that have adapted "elitist" and interpreting our help as "l2play speeches"

Although it is Zeni's obligation to cater in someway to this struggling crowd, they in no way should deny the other side of the coin the challenge they love.

____________________________________________________

I would prefer double XP for denying the buff but as I stated, those that use the buff will just complain again. Double gold also seems like a good idea, better chances for rare loot, unique armor sets only obtainable after finishing Cadwell's gold without the buff. Maybe better weapon and armor skins.

Although this one may be a bit controversial, additional attribute point for every vet rank obtain without the buff, for this debuffing must have a 1 day cool down to prevent players from dropping the buff just before leveling.

Armianlee wrote: »

fourth, it doesn't split the population and everyone is happy.

I agree.

I was considering adding to my suggestion the possibility of a separate zone instance for buffed characters. That way only buffed characters would play with other buffed characters.

But I quickly realized this is a bad idea due to how low the population already is in the higher Vet areas. It doesn't make sense to split an already low population. It's better if all players quest in the same zone, whether they're buffed or unbuffed. The rewards will still differ of course, depending on that individual's choice.

To me, it was purely lack of choice that led me to call it quits.

Not going to lie to anyone here, I played WoW for a very long time, longer than I should admit, but it gave me one thing I will never let go of in a faction based MMO, Patriotism to the Faction.

I was Horde for life, and felt dirty when I played on an Alliance toon.

When I heard this was coming out, I had no doubt in my mind I was going to play a Dunmer Assassin. After hearing that races were faction exclusive, learned all I could to have pride in the cause we fight for. But then after all the blood sweat and tears, I HAVE to go to this other faction and help their cause.

I personally liked learning about the Alliance heroes from a Horde perspective. It helped fulfill the RP side an mmoRPg should bring to the table.

The major city hubs for high level are not even in my own faction >.<

Hirelings would probably be the easiest solution, yes. They already have the system in place for certain quests.

It's a problem that doesn't have an easy solution. That's why every other game tries to cater to both tastes by leaving the unforgiving content in dungeons. But this weekend has shown us that there is a significant number of people that enjoy unforgiving solo content.

Optional buffs won't solve the problem for the same reason that fighting naked doesn't solve it. Elite players crave content that puts their skills to the test while having no advantage or disadvantage.

If it was an easy solution, somebody would have done it by now. Maybe zos will figure out a way to pioneer a unique approach that works.

I don't care what they do myself. my build, thankfully(NB archer) has done pretty well in vet zones so far(im vet 7). iv only had to change 1 ability. I refuse to "adapt" and put on a dress/jerkin and equip the gods forsaken staff(lol) so whatever happens is fine with me. as long as I can continue to play my NB archer without hitting a difficulty wall. the only "wall" I hit so far, is fighting storm atronachs(I did manage to solo a lot of the gargoyles iv fought so far) storm atros cannot be stunned, cced, snare, knocked back, and they hit REALLY hard, they have a lot of health, and their attacks slow me down(which makes no sense, as according to ES lore, shock is supposed to drain magicka, not slow you down, frost is supposed to slow you down, but what do I know right? lol) so this difficulty nerf will at least make storm atronachs actually possible for me to fight.
the first few weeks it was a nightmare for me, but I built a method that has worked so far

Arora wrote: »

they are complaining that the leveling takes to long they are lazy to do the work of the legendary levels. A level a week is nothing compared to some games. Have these people never played a free mmo, these levels do not take that long

Maybe it's the TES fan speaking now, but I do not think vet content is too long. At least compared to a TES game. I am doing every side quest and I have 420 hours in my main character. I am not even halfway done in Alik'r Desert so I have like 1,5 zones left till my second veteran faction so like 40% is still ahead of me.

But isn't it what many of us like in TES/Fallout games? spending hundreds of hours in a single character and still not having it fully finished. I know, I do. And yes, I am aware it could had been done differently, it could/should have been optional, but this thought just hit my head today

There were times when I was a bit frustrated about VR zones but in the end, I am still loving the leveling like in no other MMO and I think if other games took me this long, I long would have quit.

Someone wrote something that I found awesome: we are the heroes of our faction and now Cadwell asks us (even if only in a "what if..." situation) to help other people too since they are also just people. Many cities would fall and innocents would die without us. I bet many of us did not turn down an Imperial asking for helping Skyrim just because we joined the Stormcloaks or vice versa.

Anyway, I know that different people love and hate different things, but I had this sort of revelation that what I long wanted was right before my eyes

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Yea, I'm pretty sure it was the MMO fans who were complaining about the difficulty. As a TES fan, I want it to be hard, but as a fan of FPS multiplayer shooters, I do not want the fanbase split into anymore servers or phases.

This is a big assumption, I'm a huge TES fan and normally play the games expert/master if we are talking skyrim or I slide the difficulty all the way to the right.

However, upon playing this game I have noticed that VR content is very hard solo.... especially with how I like to play.

I like to play with a 2 hand, offensive abilities and get my defense from heavy armor however this isn't possible. Mobs bypass the heavy armor I'm using and do absurd amounts of damage.... death recount has shown this many many times. 29 points are in health to help me survive hits to no avail. I have added defensive abilities to by bar but now offensive stamina based abilities are not enough to kill the monsters before they kill me.

I complained about the difficulty because in VR zones it is very difficult (possible) but difficult for me to kill a group of 3 as a 2 handed heavy armor player. However, with a bow.... still wearing heavy armor I'm able to kit and solo bosses in VR zones.... groups of 3 are no issue. I root them in place and bow them down, slow them etc. Most are dead before getting to me.

The problem is that the content isn't balanced and neither are the abilities, classes, skill lines etc. Which means that some people, AKA magic based range players or heavily specced tanks don't seem to have a problem in VR zones.

The average player that wants to play the game how they want are unable to do so because of the difficulty, not so much difficult because there is no difference between VR and 1-50 besides doubling the HP and damage of the NPC's. Strategy is the same.....

Another thing for the OP is that there is already a simple solution for those that are upset the VR content is going to be too easy..... its called VR dungeons, master dungeons w/e they are called and trials.... also if you really want a challenge, go to craglorn where they built it for a group and solo the place. That will be a challenge.

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

Hirelings would probably be the easiest solution, yes. They already have the system in place for certain quests.

And how often do they actually help instead of bugging out?

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Yea, I'm pretty sure it was the MMO fans who were complaining about the difficulty. As a TES fan, I want it to be hard, but as a fan of FPS multiplayer shooters, I do not want the fanbase split into anymore servers or phases.

This is a big assumption, I'm a huge TES fan and normally play the games expert/master if we are talking skyrim or I slide the difficulty all the way to the right.

However, upon playing this game I have noticed that VR content is very hard solo.... especially with how I like to play.

I like to play with a 2 hand, offensive abilities and get my defense from heavy armor however this isn't possible. Mobs bypass the heavy armor I'm using and do absurd amounts of damage.... death recount has shown this many many times. 29 points are in health to help me survive hits to no avail. I have added defensive abilities to by bar but now offensive stamina based abilities are not enough to kill the monsters before they kill me.

I complained about the difficulty because in VR zones it is very difficult (possible) but difficult for me to kill a group of 3 as a 2 handed heavy armor player. However, with a bow.... still wearing heavy armor I'm able to kit and solo bosses in VR zones.... groups of 3 are no issue. I root them in place and bow them down, slow them etc. Most are dead before getting to me.

The problem is that the content isn't balanced and neither are the abilities, classes, skill lines etc. Which means that some people, AKA magic based range players or heavily specced tanks don't seem to have a problem in VR zones.

The average player that wants to play the game how they want are unable to do so because of the difficulty, not so much difficult because there is no difference between VR and 1-50 besides doubling the HP and damage of the NPC's. Strategy is the same.....

I agree with most of that, I also believe it shows that it's not the overall difficulty thats the problem, lowering it won't achieve anything.

I had to respec completely, ditch my pet summoning and turn myself into a vamp to be comfortable with vet content, I based my respec on this build

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/261txe/the_mage_purist_sorcerer_guide/

and most 2 mob vet fights are now almost too easy, most 3 mob fights very survivable using weakening prison to stun one first.

As you say it's more a balance issue than a difficulty issue.

Those players that chose to play how I am speced (as opposed to players like me who changed to it just to be able to do the content) should not suddenly find their build is now faceroll easy due to difficulty being lowered, lowering it might allow certain players to play as they like, but it will also stop other players playing as they like.

And nothing worse than building your player how you like, kitting him/her out as you like and other players saying if it's too easy, unequip the skills you enjoy or remove that armour set you spent ages getting.

I do agree players should be able to play how they like, but only up to a point, and I think Zenimax meant this too.

If you want med or heavy armour, if you want to summon pets etc, if you want to use a sword or dagger etc, everyday vet content should be doable.

But I don't think Zenimax ever intended that to mean you can slot any old skill, take zero notice of what stats your armour has and still be able to cope with all content, and up until vet content, you could go that route.

Another thing for the OP is that there is already a simple solution for those that are upset the VR content is going to be too easy..... its called VR dungeons, master dungeons w/e they are called and trials.... also if you really want a challenge, go to craglorn where they built it for a group and solo the place. That will be a challenge.

But aren't you then telling one group of players how they should play their game rather than letting them play as they like, just so that another group gets to play how they like?

hk11 wrote: »

I am ok with a choice as long as the rewards reflect the difficulty.

I agree entirely but a lot will not.

A lot will use an argument I strongly disagree with which is they pay the same as me, so they should get to do every bit of content I get to do (even if said content is designed for 12 man groups and they want to solo) , and just because I have more free time hence can put in more hrs to my gameplay, they should still get the same rewards I do.

No other thing in real life works that way, even most single player games don't either, but when it comes to mmos, rather than players just playing and having fun, some find it far more important to see what rewards others are getting and complain because they can't get exact the same.

If I play one of the many ps3 games I own for 20 mins a week, I will never get to see half the content others who play for 3 hrs a day get to see, but we all paid the same (well bargains asside). I don't write to the publisher and demand with my limited game time, I get so see everthing and get all rewards, I know that those that put in more will get more out.

Or, many many years ago both I and my sister had piano lessons. Same teacher, parents paid the same for each of us.

My sister practiced for about 2 to 3 hrs a day, I practiced 15 mins before my next lesson.

Many years later, yes I can play, but I'm not very good compared to my sister, I can learn a piece of reasonably difficult music over 3 to 4 weeks, but you can get the most difficult bit of music you can find, place it in front of my sister, she will look at it for 5 secs and play it perfectly.

She had put in more time, she gets more out.

For many people myself included, mmos are my main hobby. Others go to the gym, play football or golf etc, I get my enjoyment out of mmos. And part of that enjoyment is managing to get better at playing, get the better rewards, do tbe more challenging content, get all the achievements.

Just as a golfer who puts in 20 hrs a week will take pride as his/her game improves, I do the same with my mmo.

It's not a matter of I want to be elitist, or gloat that I'm better than whoever, I have zero interest in that, its simply I want my rewards to mean something to me and if everyone gets the same rewards regardless of time or effort, it gets to be like my kids first schools where where everyone got the same reward on sports day regardless of if they came first or last.

Or to try another way, I want to try to get all achievements for the simple sake of having them all ticked. If there's one called "mega mega mega hard, needs 12 players and will still be hard" boss, thats something to aim for. I plan to still be here in 5 years and if it takes me 5 years to get it, it will make the game even more worthwhile to me.

But if I could walk through an easy mode door and get a superbuff as I should be able to get the same achievement solo, even though I only get to play for 1 hr a week, it makes the whole achievement worthless.

Sure I can pretend that way doesn't exist, but the temptation is always there and having that route will always mean many players who would have subbed for years to complete everything, take the easy route and run out of things to aim for.

I know that can come across looking elitist but I don't mean it that way, if one of your kids has worked very very hard for months and months and gets a trophy for achieving whatever, you are rightly proud of what they have achieved. You place the trophy proudly on display. If a week later every single other kid gets the same trophy, even those who have been attending for one day, you know full well it would take something away from your son/daughters effort and quite possibly make them think there's no real point in trying.