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Simple solution to win back players
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Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭timidobserver wrote: »indytims_ESO wrote: »The game is already too easy. "Better rewards", if you mean 'better gear', will trivialize the game even further. So instead of seeing people shouting about how the rewards suck, they'll be shouting about how easy the game is.
And if you improve rewards, you'd have to improve crafting, as well.
It isn't about difficulty. It is about time and effort. Basically, this game wants you to put time and effort into something whilst knowing that you reward will be worthless. About 15-30 minutes spent gathering runes or alchemy mats will get you more valuable items than 4-5 hours spent playing PVE content.
Sorry but that just isn't true.
You'd have to be luck with runes and diligent with alchemy over a longer period to get good items, and if you have tried levelling enchanting you will know it is not swift.
The other crafts all require you to get a minimum of 8 gold materials per item to make top gear which given the drop rates from refining is the work of many hours. You might drop a few of hirelings but not many.
Plus crafters still have to PvE to get items with traits to research.
Overall uber gear dropping everywhere is not going to make a better game, either you will end up facerolling content with you blade of instakill & you armour of 'ooo stop, that tickled' OR they end up buffing the monsters so you feel it is hard work again anyway.
The key is in interesting rewards that have odd synergies or unique looks and the various dropped sets are a step in the right direction. If I was doing it the sets would drop at more levels... i.e. There is a nice set at VR6 which I would not use at VR12 because of the level... so why not allow it to drop at level of area like other random drops?2 -
Kulthax✭✭✭Economies are commonplace in MMOs and are in fact essential to the health of the game.
Bull ***. Just because other MMO's were successful, and they had strict trading, doesn't mean all MMO's need this. TES sells because of the lore, action, and customization. The more they try to keep players poor, the less they can customize which is killing a big part of what makes Elder Scrolls great.
I was reading in other threads that even the farmers can only get enough supplies to make one gold outfit after weeks. This is ridiculous! Some of us have lives and want to earn nice things without the farming crap.
You are all over the place. You have yet to answer any of my questions and are choosing to pick parts of my statement to just argue about. In fact, I am not clearly sure what your real reason is for being agitated with the economy.
You do not have an easy way to obtain gold? Respec costs too high? Gear is difficult to make because of having to depend on other players? Gear mats are hard to get and too expensive?
These are the things you are sort of referencing but keep regurgitating your disdain for this MMO having an economy. I hope that you understand that in an MMO, player driven economies only go away when the player base disappears. So essentially you have to just accept that there is an economy. This MMO is branded as an Elder Scrolls game and there are workarounds for the other issues you hinted at about disliking.
No. We should get much more loot and crafting supplies, period. If you can't understand what I'm writing, just stop trying and go away. I'm allowed to have my own opinion and that opinion is that this MMO bull *** reward system is too stingy.
No? No what? So you are a pro loot for reward player? That is a bit contradictory to your stance on hating MMOs is it not? Elder Scrolls titles have never been about uber loot but MMOs generally are made with loot rewards in mind. So you would rather loot drop as opposed to crafting your gear? I am utterly confused with the direction your argument is going. Maybe that was your intent.
I have never implied nor stated you were not allowed to have an opinion. My only issue is that you continue to not answer the questions I presented to you. It appears you would rather rant about anything and everything that is or is not MMO related.![:\](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
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Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with you to a point. But its a slippery slope, giving away too many rewards can have the same effect as giving almost nothing.
That is what is wrong with crafting - its an easy joke and everyone makes there own BIS items further creating an anti social world.
I do agree that the carrots in this game need a lot of tuning, maybe EXTREMELY RARELY in hard to get to areas like trials or end dungeons you MIGHT find a blue or epic item laying on the ground that is really amazing.
At any rate, you are right, but I don't know if it would win back players. I think it might win back some if they try the game again and it would certainly get end game and dungeon groups back in order.
Very few people are repeating trials because the gear is very very lack luster.2 -
Redlag✭✭✭I agree with @timidobserver . When you @SuraklinPrime shrugged him off with "Sorry but that just isn't true". I thought Pfft what? I logged into my blacksmith just to check the count. With hirelings on all 8 char slots, no, 16 because my wife has them and sends the mats to me.. Leveling my 4 VR characters. A VR2 and three VR1s and my wife having a VR2 and 1 VR1 that would be 6 VR characters. I have 56 dwarven oil, 11 grain solvent, and 10 tempering alloy.
My Woodworker, Clother, enchanter have just about the same amount of upgrade mats.. Never mind selling stacks of the green ones for 200g over and over. I've made a total of 2 epic weapons on my blacksmith, saving the rest for when I hit VR12, someday. Oh that's with mailing every piece of loot to each other and then her returning back to me for deconstructing every glyph, cloth, medium, staff, weapon.. WE SELL NOTHING,, Bots farm the nodes I didn't know wth was going on watching nodes I'm running at disappear for the first 2 months.
This is stingy ridiculous and for what? To even out the economy for all the beta guilds who tell everyone the game is perfect and everyone else is crazy, while sitting on stacks of duped items? Passing them around when a guildy needs em? Telling everyone else the drop rates are fine..
I could have sold all the loot I deconstructed and probably been able to afford just buying the sets I need. But come on, how am I suppose to outfit those 6 VRs with 10 yellow upgrade mats for each craft? Get serious, this is ridiculous.
Edit: and all these nerfs seem more geared to making leveling stupidly mind numbed and items ultra rare for some F2P cash shop of bingo chances to win exp boosts and rare items. Way more than bot nerfing. In reality if you nerf drops, you make botting worth more. Because they're getting the drops at the same rates the players are. They're still running 50 bots and all day long. You just make us players get less and have to buy stuff from guild stores more often which hmmm. The bots mains are selling.
Edited by Redlag on July 5, 2014 10:34AM1 -
AreoHotah✭✭✭✭It will take more than that to make me sub again.Hota'h, Dual-wield/bow full medium armor NB Khajiit from day 1.
https://imageshack.com/i/p2rF313Qj/b]2 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Economies are commonplace in MMOs and are in fact essential to the health of the game.
Bull ***. Just because other MMO's were successful, and they had strict trading, doesn't mean all MMO's need this. TES sells because of the lore, action, and customization. The more they try to keep players poor, the less they can customize which is killing a big part of what makes Elder Scrolls great.
I was reading in other threads that even the farmers can only get enough supplies to make one gold outfit after weeks. This is ridiculous! Some of us have lives and want to earn nice things without the farming crap.
You are all over the place. You have yet to answer any of my questions and are choosing to pick parts of my statement to just argue about. In fact, I am not clearly sure what your real reason is for being agitated with the economy.
You do not have an easy way to obtain gold? Respec costs too high? Gear is difficult to make because of having to depend on other players? Gear mats are hard to get and too expensive?
These are the things you are sort of referencing but keep regurgitating your disdain for this MMO having an economy. I hope that you understand that in an MMO, player driven economies only go away when the player base disappears. So essentially you have to just accept that there is an economy. This MMO is branded as an Elder Scrolls game and there are workarounds for the other issues you hinted at about disliking.
No. We should get much more loot and crafting supplies, period. If you can't understand what I'm writing, just stop trying and go away. I'm allowed to have my own opinion and that opinion is that this MMO bull *** reward system is too stingy.
No? No what? So you are a pro loot for reward player? That is a bit contradictory to your stance on hating MMOs is it not? Elder Scrolls titles have never been about uber loot but MMOs generally are made with loot rewards in mind. So you would rather loot drop as opposed to crafting your gear? I am utterly confused with the direction your argument is going. Maybe that was your intent.
I have never implied nor stated you were not allowed to have an opinion. My only issue is that you continue to not answer the questions I presented to you. It appears you would rather rant about anything and everything that is or is not MMO related.
I don't answer questions if they are presented in large paragraphs. After many forums, I've learned that dissecting posts is never ending. If you have specific questions, ask it separately.
TES always gave a lot of loot in dungeons, chests, and as rewards. It also gave enough supplies to craft anything you wanted. I am not seeing the same in this game due to some forced economy crap and I think we should be able to earn enough on our own without having to farm.Edited by SFBryan18 on July 5, 2014 11:02AM2 -
kevlarto_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't understand win people back , since we do not know numbers here, how do we know the game has lost that many players ? I am in huge guild with 4 different divisions we are are gaining more players than players leaving.. soon with the guild cap we will have number 5.. I am sure like all mmo's 30, 60, and 90 day intervals we see people leave, we have had some people leave for that other game and they all came back to ESO in about 2 weeks, so I dunno..
I do think there is some good ideas here in this thread not only to maybe bring back some that have left but to keep those on the fence.2 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Redlag - but you just agreed with me, you appear to be saying that even with a full set up of alts and hirelings you can barely scrape up enough to make decent gear... which is what I was saying.
@timidobserver - appeared to be saying that crafters could do more in 30 mins that PvE players could in hours, I disagree, you seem to disagree too.
The one edge we have is the small chance of dropping the golden materials and for that you have to invest a lot of time and skill points, not to mention luck.
And then even that is often negated by the stacks of gold materials owned by the early dupe exploiters.1 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭P.S. I am at VR12 and after much effort am in gold, but I know they plan to up levels soon so I am already trying to build towards the 72 gold mats I will need.
And if I ever get to 8 traits on enough pieces I will need more to upgrade that set... And if they ever make more varied craftable sets then again... more needed!
Now I have a couple of decent routes and I don't mind spending time gathering, refining and selling... but if people start dropping uber powered gold sets from a couple of PvE quests then crafting effort becomes worthless.1 -
vmoped✭✭I know I would like to see ways of reasonably acquiring purple recipes introduced to the game. Relying on other players to advance my provisioning is an asinine system. I cannot afford the recipes, nor have I rolled all 10's on the 100+ d10 dice simultaneously to find one (ie: the close to zero chance in finding one). How can I advance? I shouldn't have to win the lottery to advance a crafting skill... How about we get some sort of quest or system to allow me to earn one of these recipes, not rely on players who expect insane amounts of gold for them.
BTW, makderi runes are white (common), yet since headstart I have found a total of 6, yet have found over 70 yellow (legendary) kuta's. WTH is wrong with your drop rates for white items? If it is lower than legendary, then it needs a new color classification.
Cheers!1 -
AngryWolf✭✭✭I find discussions like this pointless. Like what are the actual numbers of people that have left? It could be such a small percentage, and people play games and move on all the time, new people start to play, etc.
Yes we have some people come to forums to go out in dramatic fashion, but how many, is this really. I could be wrong and maybe it's a bigger percentage than I'm thinking.0 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Economies are commonplace in MMOs and are in fact essential to the health of the game.
Bull ***. Just because other MMO's were successful, and they had strict trading, doesn't mean all MMO's need this. TES sells because of the lore, action, and customization. The more they try to keep players poor, the less they can customize which is killing a big part of what makes Elder Scrolls great.
I was reading in other threads that even the farmers can only get enough supplies to make one gold outfit after weeks. This is ridiculous! Some of us have lives and want to earn nice things without the farming crap.
You are all over the place. You have yet to answer any of my questions and are choosing to pick parts of my statement to just argue about. In fact, I am not clearly sure what your real reason is for being agitated with the economy.
You do not have an easy way to obtain gold? Respec costs too high? Gear is difficult to make because of having to depend on other players? Gear mats are hard to get and too expensive?
These are the things you are sort of referencing but keep regurgitating your disdain for this MMO having an economy. I hope that you understand that in an MMO, player driven economies only go away when the player base disappears. So essentially you have to just accept that there is an economy. This MMO is branded as an Elder Scrolls game and there are workarounds for the other issues you hinted at about disliking.
No. We should get much more loot and crafting supplies, period. If you can't understand what I'm writing, just stop trying and go away. I'm allowed to have my own opinion and that opinion is that this MMO bull *** reward system is too stingy.
No? No what? So you are a pro loot for reward player? That is a bit contradictory to your stance on hating MMOs is it not? Elder Scrolls titles have never been about uber loot but MMOs generally are made with loot rewards in mind. So you would rather loot drop as opposed to crafting your gear? I am utterly confused with the direction your argument is going. Maybe that was your intent.
I have never implied nor stated you were not allowed to have an opinion. My only issue is that you continue to not answer the questions I presented to you. It appears you would rather rant about anything and everything that is or is not MMO related.
I don't answer questions if they are presented in large paragraphs. After many forums, I've learned that dissecting posts is never ending. If you have specific questions, ask it separately.
TES always gave a lot of loot in dungeons, chests, and as rewards. It also gave enough supplies to craft anything you wanted. I am not seeing the same in this game due to some forced economy crap and I think we should be able to earn enough on our own without having to farm.
Translation: I want everything handed to me just because I showed up.
You have options to get everything in this game. You can craft and get hirelings, do it on alts as well, you can farm or you can buy mats and gear from other players. If you don't like the multiple and varied options available that's another thing entirely.
MMOs simply can't be the monty haul experiences that single player games can be for a lot of reasons but, suffice it to say, because of the multiplayer aspects of the game. It's not just bad for the economy and bad for player interest and retention, but can be very easily OP when players approach a game in the way MMOs are intended...working together cooperatively. The only reason anyone would have a problem with this is if they approach an MMO as a single player game, which it isn't. ESOs problems stem not from having too much "economy crap," as you say, but not enough of it. There is more to it than just what's for sale. When done correctly, the right economic model fuels a healthy multiplayer game environment and infinite replayability. This game has gone so far to cater to solo players and to insulate players from multiplayer as it is it now has so far to go to achieve that. And is the root of most of the game's problems.
And, frankly, this is YOUR problem, not a design flaw or something broken with the game. You might consider that perhaps MMOs aren't for you and maybe you should stick to single player games. You won't have to deal with "economy crap" and we won't have to deal with you and those like you trying to make MMOs even weaker and easier than they've already become.
Edited by Fleymark on July 5, 2014 3:30PM4 -
WylieCoyote1511✭✭✭They need to bring in the other guilds and the whole justice system thing, sooner rather than later!!
ie, the sooner this game becomes more like an Elder Scrolls game the better1 -
Crisscross✭✭✭I disagree. Personally, I play Diablo and Borderlands when I want my fix of finding phat lewtz. I don't really think that loot hunting should be a design feature of MMOs - just for the fact that I believe gear and the progression of it should be as fair as possible for the sake of PVP and endgame dungeons. I think the devs should really just focus on making the content itself better, not finding a good carrot to make people want to play through flawed content.1
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Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Crisscross wrote: »I disagree. Personally, I play Diablo and Borderlands when I want my fix of finding phat lewtz. I don't really think that loot hunting should be a design feature of MMOs - just for the fact that I believe gear and the progression of it should be as fair as possible for the sake of PVP and endgame dungeons. I think the devs should really just focus on making the content itself better, not finding a good carrot to make people want to play through flawed content.
Nobody raids just for the fun of raiding, for example. They do it for the rewards it brings....In fact, until the (wrong) turn the genre has taken in recent years, that was the whole point of MMOs....You group and raid with others to accomplish things and derive rewards that you could not on your own. It's the entire POINT of playing an MMO and how we've strayed so far from that lately is just beyond me.
In our case here, people simply aren't doing the vet dungeons. They might once for the achievements but not having appropriate and desirable rewards is killing replayability and, by extension, multiplayer in this game. As much as some do, most people play MMOs to advance their character not just for the sake of doing something just because it's there. If you are going to deal with the time and effort it takes to get in a group that isn't made up of incompetents since everyone can solo to high levels, there needs to be a reason to. But there isn't. So most don't.
You can still have interesting and rewarding itimization without trivializing crafting and unbalancing PvP. PvP in DAoC, for example, was the endgame likePvP is supposed to be here, yet they still had good drops in raid and dungeon content that made them worth doing . They did go overboard with that in one expansion but the real issue with that was replayability as that expansion aged.
Point being, it's not just doable, but necessary or people lose interest in end game play fast. Couple that with PvP performing poorly for a lot of people and a lack of replayability because the early game is linear and story based and you have a recipe for people playing one toon to high level and simply quitting because they are bored. No bueno, IMO.Edited by Fleymark on July 5, 2014 5:17PM2 -
Crisscross✭✭✭Crisscross wrote: »I disagree. Personally, I play Diablo and Borderlands when I want my fix of finding phat lewtz. I don't really think that loot hunting should be a design feature of MMOs - just for the fact that I believe gear and the progression of it should be as fair as possible for the sake of PVP and endgame dungeons. I think the devs should really just focus on making the content itself better, not finding a good carrot to make people want to play through flawed content.
Nobody raids just for the fun of raiding, for example. They do it for the rewards it brings....In fact, until the (wrong) turn the genre has taken in recent years, that was the whole point of MMOs....You group and raid with others to accomplish things and derive rewards that you could not on your own. It's the entire POINT of playing an MMO and how we've strayed so far from that lately is just beyond me.
There is a universe of difference between getting tokens or an item at the end of an MMO raid, and the systems in loot fest games like Borderlands.
I agree that dungeons and raids (and PVP) should give good rewards, that's what I meant by gear progression being fair. What I don't agree with is ,
"don't clutter the struggling world with useless crap....like useless white items....fill it with bind on pick up or bound gold items",
or
".no one on this forum could say "this needs to be easier" when they get a purple or gold uncraftable styled 500 armor chest piece for the battle...or find a hidden book giving 5 skill points....or open some chest in a dungeon that pops out some awesome looking glowing effect sword doing 200 damage with a 40% critical chance."
It really seemed like the OP is suggesting that the open world itself be turned into a rich, randomized treasure trove. All I was saying is that that was what I disagreed with.1 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Well, I think it goes without saying that you can't glut an MMO with monty haul loot like you find in single player games. But there is a gulf of difference between that and what we have now. The majority of public dungeons and overland loot is probably where it needs to be now. But it's not outrageous expect something better than a green sword you can't use after putting a group together and clearing an instance dungeon, either.
All this borderlands talk is making me want to dust off my commando and finally finish bl2 before the new one this fall, btw.
Havent played since the level cap went over 50. 1 -
Blackwidow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭"Simple solution to win back players"
Oh, I was expecting free beer with each hour of playtime.
1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SuraklinPrime wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »indytims_ESO wrote: »The game is already too easy. "Better rewards", if you mean 'better gear', will trivialize the game even further. So instead of seeing people shouting about how the rewards suck, they'll be shouting about how easy the game is.
And if you improve rewards, you'd have to improve crafting, as well.
It isn't about difficulty. It is about time and effort. Basically, this game wants you to put time and effort into something whilst knowing that you reward will be worthless. About 15-30 minutes spent gathering runes or alchemy mats will get you more valuable items than 4-5 hours spent playing PVE content.
Sorry but that just isn't true.
You'd have to be luck with runes and diligent with alchemy over a longer period to get good items, and if you have tried levelling enchanting you will know it is not swift.
The other crafts all require you to get a minimum of 8 gold materials per item to make top gear which given the drop rates from refining is the work of many hours. You might drop a few of hirelings but not many.
Plus crafters still have to PvE to get items with traits to research.
Overall uber gear dropping everywhere is not going to make a better game, either you will end up facerolling content with you blade of instakill & you armour of 'ooo stop, that tickled' OR they end up buffing the monsters so you feel it is hard work again anyway.
The key is in interesting rewards that have odd synergies or unique looks and the various dropped sets are a step in the right direction. If I was doing it the sets would drop at more levels... i.e. There is a nice set at VR6 which I would not use at VR12 because of the level... so why not allow it to drop at level of area like other random drops?
I am almost not sure why you quoted me, because you seem to be responding to stuff I didn't say. I never said that Uber gear needs to drop everywhere, that crafters don't have to pve, or anything relating to most of the stuff you are going on about. All I said is that the majority of stuff that drops in PVE is worthless and that time would be better spent crafting. If you spend the time and effort to max crafting, you are going to benefit from it significantly. If you were among the first to have 8 trait crafting available, you probably have enough gold now that you'll be set for the rest of the time you play the game. The same goes for enchanters that hit max level first.
It's like you are trying to find stuff to disagree with in my post even though it doesn't exist. The thing you mentioned in the last paragraph about odd synergies or unique looks qualifies as a solution to this as far as what I said in my post. I don't really care what they do to the PVEdrops as far as making them more powerful, better looking, adding synergies, or whatever. All I said was that the majority of the stuff you get in PVE is useless and not worth the time spent to obtain it.
It is universal across most successful MMOs that there is some kind of incentive attached to completing the game's PVE content. Even if you go the GW2 route and give out crappy non-functional cosmetics, it would be better than the current state of ESO. There is little to no incentive to do the majority of the PVE content in ESO.
V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Sorry if I'm not saying what you want to hear, but in an MMO you are either going to have to deal with others on an economic level or you are going to have to get creative with ways to work around it. Even in one with "elder scrolls" in the title. Crafting and using alts is one way to do it. There are others. To put it in perspective, there have been games where people rolled up multiple toons on multiple accounts, built multiple computers and learned how to run a whole group at once just because that was easier for doing the months of farming and acamps they were going to have to do for a single item for their main character than trying to do it pickup or with friends. Really, we already ARE being handed everything on ez mode here.
What you do with your time in game is what gets rewarded. Smart play gets rewarded. Innovation gets rewarded. Having a good guild and network of friends gets rewarded. Making a good plan to accomplish your goals and executing it gets rewarded. But just showing up and demanding to be rewarded does not. If it were, the game economy would be so inflated it would be pointless to play. It may say "elder scrolls" on the box but it's still an MMO and they have to balance everything with that in mind. Your refusal to adapt to the realities of the game doesn't mean anything is broken or needs to be changed for you.
[Moderator Edit: Removed quote from moderated post.]Edited by ZOS_SandraF on July 6, 2014 2:13AM2 -
ZOS_CatK✭✭✭Everyone, this is a reminder to keep this thread on topic and to treat each other politely. Disagreements are bound to happen if you are passionate about something but please respect each other's opinions and avoid personal attacks and derailing the thread further.
Thank you.0 -
SFBryan18✭✭✭✭✭
✭Economies are commonplace in MMOs and are in fact essential to the health of the game.
Bull ***. Just because other MMO's were successful, and they had strict trading, doesn't mean all MMO's need this. TES sells because of the lore, action, and customization. The more they try to keep players poor, the less they can customize which is killing a big part of what makes Elder Scrolls great.
I was reading in other threads that even the farmers can only get enough supplies to make one gold outfit after weeks. This is ridiculous! Some of us have lives and want to earn nice things without the farming crap.
You are all over the place. You have yet to answer any of my questions and are choosing to pick parts of my statement to just argue about. In fact, I am not clearly sure what your real reason is for being agitated with the economy.
You do not have an easy way to obtain gold? Respec costs too high? Gear is difficult to make because of having to depend on other players? Gear mats are hard to get and too expensive?
These are the things you are sort of referencing but keep regurgitating your disdain for this MMO having an economy. I hope that you understand that in an MMO, player driven economies only go away when the player base disappears. So essentially you have to just accept that there is an economy. This MMO is branded as an Elder Scrolls game and there are workarounds for the other issues you hinted at about disliking.
No. We should get much more loot and crafting supplies, period. If you can't understand what I'm writing, just stop trying and go away. I'm allowed to have my own opinion and that opinion is that this MMO bull *** reward system is too stingy.
No? No what? So you are a pro loot for reward player? That is a bit contradictory to your stance on hating MMOs is it not? Elder Scrolls titles have never been about uber loot but MMOs generally are made with loot rewards in mind. So you would rather loot drop as opposed to crafting your gear? I am utterly confused with the direction your argument is going. Maybe that was your intent.
I have never implied nor stated you were not allowed to have an opinion. My only issue is that you continue to not answer the questions I presented to you. It appears you would rather rant about anything and everything that is or is not MMO related.
I don't answer questions if they are presented in large paragraphs. After many forums, I've learned that dissecting posts is never ending. If you have specific questions, ask it separately.
TES always gave a lot of loot in dungeons, chests, and as rewards. It also gave enough supplies to craft anything you wanted. I am not seeing the same in this game due to some forced economy crap and I think we should be able to earn enough on our own without having to farm.
Translation: I want everything handed to me just because I showed up.
You have options to get everything in this game. You can craft and get hirelings, do it on alts as well, you can farm or you can buy mats and gear from other players. If you don't like the multiple and varied options available that's another thing entirely.
MMOs simply can't be the monty haul experiences that single player games can be for a lot of reasons but, suffice it to say, because of the multiplayer aspects of the game. It's not just bad for the economy and bad for player interest and retention, but can be very easily OP when players approach a game in the way MMOs are intended...working together cooperatively. The only reason anyone would have a problem with this is if they approach an MMO as a single player game, which it isn't. ESOs problems stem not from having too much "economy crap," as you say, but not enough of it. There is more to it than just what's for sale. When done correctly, the right economic model fuels a healthy multiplayer game environment and infinite replayability. This game has gone so far to cater to solo players and to insulate players from multiplayer as it is it now has so far to go to achieve that. And is the root of most of the game's problems.
And, frankly, this is YOUR problem, not a design flaw or something broken with the game. You might consider that perhaps MMOs aren't for you and maybe you should stick to single player games. You won't have to deal with "economy crap" and we won't have to deal with you and those like you trying to make MMOs even weaker and easier than they've already become.
Translation: I don't know how to translate.
This game would not exist without the Elder Scrolls fans who asked for a multiplayer game. Go ahead and try to say the same about the MMO fanbase, because you can't. The game should be designed more like TES, not like generic WoW clones.Edited by SFBryan18 on July 6, 2014 2:59AM2 -
Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭How about giving better rewards? After all that's what people want...to feel an extreme rush of finding a super great item....This game lacks that sensation at every turn....no one cares if vet zones are harder...If the drops are worth the fight then more people would be happy to team up....don't clutter the struggling world with useless crap....like useless white items....fill it with bind on pick up or bound gold items...When a hirling brings in better drops then a storyline boss....no one wants to play. That sense of "look what I found" is not in this game at any level...other then the motif books...and that's only exciting because you know you can at least sell it to pay for repairing your armor from fighting mudcrabs.
Better rewards even yielding higher sale prices...tthat's how you excite the masses of rpg/mmo. Fill up the areas because they are worth the effort...not because you have to replay other factions....no one on this forum could say "this needs to be easier" when they get a purple or gold uncraftable styled 500 armor chest piece for the battle...or find a hidden book giving 5 skill points....or open some chest in a dungeon that pops out some awesome looking glowing effect sword doing 200 damage with a 40% critical chance.
Actually, as a crafter I am 100% against Non craftable Drops which are better then anything which can be made, and the reason is simple.
Why have crafting in game at all, if after you hit max level it becomes "useless"?
NOW, on the other hand if recipes for that item dropped, I'd be perfectly ok with it. Because then not only can I sell the recipe, but also the item if I make it = Double win. Not only does this promote game-play, but it also promotes the in game economy, as well as the industrial/crafting part of the game.
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Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭emeraldbay wrote: »How about, instead of making drops more powerful, just give them unique effects that you can't get while crafting. That would make it so that instead of having the choice between crafting substandard gear and finding awesome gear, you can now choose to craft and get X effect, or go through dungeons and have Y effect.
Again, I am 100% against anything that makes Crafting Useless after hitting max level and spending MONTHS researching traits.
Any system that rewards items which are better then what you can craft will make all that time and work on crafting stuff, Pointless and obsolete, because people will then just run dungeons for the loot drops and ignore crafting (Just like they did in WoW until they made the stuff you can craft = to the stuff that would drop).
The only way for this to work is to add "Recipes" and Materials, which only drop from those encounters. Not Items themselves.
TERA Online has the right way to do it. ZOS should take a serious look at that game.
Edited by Malpherian on July 6, 2014 3:21AM2 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Malpherian wrote: »emeraldbay wrote: »How about, instead of making drops more powerful, just give them unique effects that you can't get while crafting. That would make it so that instead of having the choice between crafting substandard gear and finding awesome gear, you can now choose to craft and get X effect, or go through dungeons and have Y effect.
Again, I am 100% against anything that makes Crafting Useless after hitting max level and spending MONTHS researching traits.
Any system that rewards items which are better then what you can craft will make all that time and work on crafting stuff, Pointless and obsolete, because people will then just run dungeons for the loot drops and ignore crafting (Just like they did in WoW until they made the stuff you can craft = to the stuff that would drop).
The only way for this to work is to add "Recipes" and Materials, which only drop from those encounters. Not Items themselves.
TERA Online has the right way to do it. ZOS should take a serious look at that game.
I'm a crafter too and while I agree, to an extent, there really does need to be some kind of loot reward available for certain encounters. People expect more than just a skill point and an achievements for taking on harder content that requires groups in a solo centric game like this one.
Which is why, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think good jewelry sets would be perfect for dungeon loot. 3 jewel slots can accommodate a set and it doesn't conflict with crafting in any way. And if you can only get particular ones in certain dungeons it creates an incentive to do dungeons and repeat them.
Actually, this is pretty much how it worked in DAoC. Endgame gear was crafted and you carefully planned out your full set template so as to cap out your vital stats and skills, but the jewelry slots were all drops. No reason it couldn't work the same here.
You touch on something I would love to see, though...would be cool if, say, after getting 8 traits in all items in a craft you could then open another level of research and learn the dropped sets. Or special sets just for that.Edited by Fleymark on July 6, 2014 3:34AM0 -
Etharian✭✭✭How about giving better rewards? After all that's what people want...to feel an extreme rush of finding a super great item....This game lacks that sensation at every turn....no one cares if vet zones are harder...If the drops are worth the fight then more people would be happy to team up....don't clutter the struggling world with useless crap....like useless white items....fill it with bind on pick up or bound gold items...When a hirling brings in better drops then a storyline boss....no one wants to play. That sense of "look what I found" is not in this game at any level...other then the motif books...and that's only exciting because you know you can at least sell it to pay for repairing your armor from fighting mudcrabs.
Better rewards even yielding higher sale prices...tthat's how you excite the masses of rpg/mmo. Fill up the areas because they are worth the effort...not because you have to replay other factions....no one on this forum could say "this needs to be easier" when they get a purple or gold uncraftable styled 500 armor chest piece for the battle...or find a hidden book giving 5 skill points....or open some chest in a dungeon that pops out some awesome looking glowing effect sword doing 200 damage with a 40% critical chance.
Or they could make a better game with TRUE OPEN WORLD PVP- and NON- INSTANCED player housing.
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LrdRahvin✭✭✭✭✭How about giving better rewards? After all that's what people want...to feel an extreme rush of finding a super great item....This game lacks that sensation at every turn....no one cares if vet zones are harder...If the drops are worth the fight then more people would be happy to team up....don't clutter the struggling world with useless crap....like useless white items....fill it with bind on pick up or bound gold items...When a hirling brings in better drops then a storyline boss....no one wants to play. That sense of "look what I found" is not in this game at any level...other then the motif books...and that's only exciting because you know you can at least sell it to pay for repairing your armor from fighting mudcrabs.
Better rewards even yielding higher sale prices...tthat's how you excite the masses of rpg/mmo. Fill up the areas because they are worth the effort...not because you have to replay other factions....no one on this forum could say "this needs to be easier" when they get a purple or gold uncraftable styled 500 armor chest piece for the battle...or find a hidden book giving 5 skill points....or open some chest in a dungeon that pops out some awesome looking glowing effect sword doing 200 damage with a 40% critical chance.
Or they could make a better game with TRUE OPEN WORLD PVP- and NON- INSTANCED player housing.
Hell...I'd just settle for Cyrodiil working...but even that's been beyond them for the last two weeks
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Malpherian✭✭✭✭✭Economies are commonplace in MMOs and are in fact essential to the health of the game.
Bull ***. Just because other MMO's were successful, and they had strict trading, doesn't mean all MMO's need this. TES sells because of the lore, action, and customization. The more they try to keep players poor, the less they can customize which is killing a big part of what makes Elder Scrolls great.
I was reading in other threads that even the farmers can only get enough supplies to make one gold outfit after weeks. This is ridiculous! Some of us have lives and want to earn nice things without the farming crap.
Gonna stop you right there, as an Economist, and as an individual that has worked on AAA title games before I need to say, sorry but you are.... Incorrect.
Economy is a MAJOR function of ANY AAA successful MMO.
Eve Online is a Niche game, If you took away it's economy, the game would die in a week.
WoW is exactly the same, the vast majority of the player base relies on the economy of a game (or of a society) for it's goods and services.
A few others:
Perpetuum
Aion
Tera
Rift
Wildstar
Path of Exile
Eve Online
WoW
etc
The games that do not have economies like you are suggesting are not MMORPGS, they are DOTA and LOL like games (LoL, Smite, Tribes, DOTA2, etc)
What your saying is basically that companies should stop making toothbrushes and cloths, You'd like to make your own. Have you even ever tried to make your own armor? I can Make Chain mail in RL, trust me, it takes weeks at 8 hours a day just to make a single chain mail shirt.
Really, I don't make it for SCA because I'd rather spend 600$ on a Chain mail shirt then spend the time making it, but if no one made them besides me, I would not have a choice, and honestly I probably would quit doing SCA because I couldn't be bothered to take the time to repair my armor and craft a new set when I needed it.
Same principal applies in MMORPGS.
If you do not understand why the above comparatives are relevant, then you do not need to be posting as you have no clue what your talking about.Edited by Malpherian on July 6, 2014 3:42AM4 -
Kulthax✭✭✭
You are making an assumption in regards to whether or not this game would exist as an MMO. There are all sorts of successful MMOs that have been created without having strong lore and fans behind them. If we really want to get into arguing about the merits of having a strong fanbase, then the only successful game with a proven IP and fans prior to launching as an MMO is World of Warcraft.Translation: I don't know how to translate.
This game would not exist without the Elder Scrolls fans who asked for a multiplayer game. Go ahead and try to say the same about the MMO fanbase, because you can't. The game should be designed more like TES, not like generic WoW clones.
Star Wars Galaxies, Knights of the Old Republic, Star Trek Online, Final Fantasy; all have great lore and fans yet none of them have been regarded as hugely successful. I would be hesitant in claiming that the games existence is only because of TES fans.
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