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Is a 10% increase in stats worth grinding content you dont like?
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SaibotLiu✭✭✭✭
That's a very simplistic way to look at it. If every time I hit you I'm doing 10% more damage, and every time you hit me you're doing 10% less damage, I'll win every fight. It's got nothing to do with addition, it's called a cumulative effect. You can scoff at a 10% bonus all you want, but how it looks on paper and how it works in practice is two entirely different things.
You're completely disregarding the elements of game mechanics and many other variables and looking at it as a blanket 10% increase, which it isn't.
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Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭seneferab16_ESO wrote: »That's a very simplistic way to look at it. If every time I hit you I'm doing 10% more damage, and every time you hit me you're doing 10% less damage, I'll win every fight. It's got nothing to do with addition, it's called a cumulative effect. You can scoff at a 10% bonus all you want, but how it looks on paper and how it works in practice is two entirely different things.
You're completely disregarding the elements of game mechanics and many other variables and looking at it as a blanket 10% increase, which it isn't.
And your completely disregarding the different abilities of the players themselves. A good player can easily make up the 10% discrepancy. Let me ask you this.
Bill and Bob both want to PvP They are from different factions.
Billy goes to Cyrodil at v1. spends a long time there and learns his trade. Gets killed a lot but also does his fair share of killing.
BoB his brother bro goes to vet and levels.
In week BoB is vet 12 and has learned how to kill AI controlled mobs.
Bill is only vet 4 but he's has learned a hell of a lot about PvP and how to counter almost everything.
Bill goes to Cyrodil now he's levelled and the first enemy he runs into is Bob
What would happen?
Edited by Hilgara on July 4, 2014 8:57AM0 -
SaibotLiu✭✭✭✭seneferab16_ESO wrote: »That's a very simplistic way to look at it. If every time I hit you I'm doing 10% more damage, and every time you hit me you're doing 10% less damage, I'll win every fight. It's got nothing to do with addition, it's called a cumulative effect. You can scoff at a 10% bonus all you want, but how it looks on paper and how it works in practice is two entirely different things.
You're completely disregarding the elements of game mechanics and many other variables and looking at it as a blanket 10% increase, which it isn't.
And your completely disregarding the different abilities of the players themselves.
No, I speak from personal experience as someone who has PVPed as a vet lvl 1 exclusively.
lol I'm not going to start dealing with hypotheticals. Come PVP if you want to see the difference between a vet rank 1 and vet rank 12. It's obvious to anyone who has any experience in Cyrodiil.
Edited by SaibotLiu on July 4, 2014 9:07AM1 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
No, I speak from personal experience as someone who has PVPed as a vet lvl 1 exclusively.
lol I'm not going to start dealing with hypotheticals. Come PVP if you want to see the difference between a vet rank 1 and vet rank 12. It's obvious to anyone who has any experience in Cyrodiil.
I'm often in cyro. The clusterf**k zergs don't interest me but I can often be found in a dungeon waiting for a catch. I've taken out a couple of V12s in a dungeon at about v7 myself....admittedly they were already involved in a fight with trash but I'm a NB rogue. Don't expect me to play by the rules
Edited by Hilgara on July 4, 2014 9:12AM0 -
SaibotLiu✭✭✭✭
No, I speak from personal experience as someone who has PVPed as a vet lvl 1 exclusively.
lol I'm not going to start dealing with hypotheticals. Come PVP if you want to see the difference between a vet rank 1 and vet rank 12. It's obvious to anyone who has any experience in Cyrodiil.
I'm often in cyro. The clusterf**k zergs don't interest me but I can often be found in a dungeon waiting for a catch. I've taken out a couple of V12s in a dungeon at about v7 myself....admittedly they were already involved in a fight with trash but I'm a NB rogue. Don't expect me to play by the rules
I play pretty much the same. I dont have much experience with fighting vet 12's as I've taken a long break from the game. But I took down plenty of the "unkillable" vet rank 10 DK's with the batswarm/talon spam before the nerfs, straight up 1vs1. I know as well as anyone that it's not all about lvl. And I'm also a 1h/shield/bow/full medium armor NB.
Still, to discount the bonus's you get in vet ranks is ill advised. It is anything but a negligible difference.
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My HPs (boosted veteran5 in cyrodiil) are around 1886.
How many HPs do vet12 usualy have 3000? Definetely sounds like 10% boost.
Spell damage around 88. Veteran 12 players claiming to have around 120 again sounds like minor 10%...
Comparation of Cyrodiil PvE. Veteran12 archer was killing veteran 5 mobs in Nisin Cave with 3-4 hits. I was killing one mob with like 20 spells/heavy flame staff attacks. Again sounds like minor difference :-).
From what I saw those “10%" are worth the grind for sure. :-)1 -
Metacon✭✭✭[quote="seneferab16_ESO;1073300"
And your completely disregarding the different abilities of the players themselves. A good player can easily make up the 10% discrepancy.
When we're talking about "fairness" of game mechanics.. you have to assume both players are of EQUAL skill.
You canot singlehandly wave away an argument tthat states v12 players have an advantage over v1 players by... "yes. but a good v1 can still kick a v12's behind"
So tonight when in the soccer world championship Germany faces France... would it be ok for you if the German Goal was 10% bigger, 10% taller, while the France goal was 10% narrower and 10% smaller?
Would you still tell us: "everythign is ok. because is Germany has more skill than France it would still win?
No its NOT a fair fight if ONE party has to OVERCOMPENSATE.
And thats why I said in my statement before... even a mere 1% in stats would shift the favor of a fight towards the one who who has that 1 % extra.
YOU are talking about "mere 10%".... and even deny telling us the fact (unintentionally or intentionally) that v12 weapons do not 1%, not 10% but 31% MORE damage than V1 weapons...
Basically: you cannot say there is no difference, when there IS.
After hitting level 50, i would very much prefer veteran ranks to make absolutely ZERO difference in gamestats whatsoever. Because right then and there you could start enjoying what ever form of endgame you like the most - without having to worry about being *ABLE TO USE* the best possible quipment... you could start trying to *ACTUALLY OWN* the best possible equipment.
Any barbarian can lead a mob - but a paladin will turn a mob into an army.
Emerald Security Blog
"I used to be a PvE adventurer like you - but then I took a 'veteran content' to my knee."
"I used to be a PvP adventurer like you - but then I took patch 1.2.3 to my knee."4 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭
Of all the damage you do how much does weapon damage damage contribute? Even if it was 50% that extra 30% weapons damage would only be increasing your total damage by 15%[
YOU are talking about "mere 10%".... and even deny telling us the fact (unintentionally or intentionally) that v12 weapons do not 1%, not 10% but 31% MORE damage than V1 weapons...
I never said both would be absolutely comparable. I only asked the question if it was worth going through all that grinding for content you don't like to earn the extra 10%
If PvP is your thing then dying should be nothing new and any seasoned PvP'er will tell you they really look forward to all those fresh young V12 PvE'ers joining Cyrodil. Especially the guys that went there at level 10, got their arse handed to them a thousand times but continually improved while also doing what they love.
They love target rich environments.
Edited by Hilgara on July 4, 2014 10:30AM0 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is a 10% increase in stats worth grinding content you dont like?
Yes! Even 1%!- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
- YouTube: All ESO disguises (2014)
- EU players are humans too! We want our maintenances in the least pop time (at deep night) and not lasted for several hours!
- Animation canceR - is true PvP cancer! When you can't see which actions your opponent do - you can't react properly on them!
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seneferab16_ESO✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
It matters very much in PvP.
Easy solution would be to remove Veteran Ranks from Cyrodiil and let everybody be on the same level. Then skill will truly decide who will win.
Will never happen, but one can always dream.
Aerin Treerunner, pre dinner snack1 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭There are also VR10/12 sets you would miss. And yes there are craftable for any level, sets wich bonuses scales with gear level as well.
This is what endgame is about in any mmorpg anyway, ravaging every single 1% increase to be able to perform as best as you can at the end of the day.
Is it worth to hire Suarez for 80m pounds? If you are near the top (barca) I guess it is, because by that time every step to perform better costs triple than if you are a middle-ground team.
Is it worth to train a full year to shorten your 100m rush time by 0,1s? Well, if you are competing with top runners near world record marks, yes. If you are an amateur runner who started a few years ago, probably not.0 -
Rev Rielle✭✭✭✭✭
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Just as an aside, and to help clear up any confusion; that's actually not true.
Just as one simple example using two basically criteria: If my character can survive 10% longer due to armour improvements, and they can also deal out 10% more damage due to weapon/skill improvements, that's an actual improvement of 21% (1.1x1.1 = 1.21). However, even if your math is a little off that doesn't change the whole premise of what you're trying to say. Something I agree with.
On the whole I think it comes down to the follow relationship:
To the good players, gear is less important. As you say, real XP trumps any shortcomings that player will have with regard to 'sum optimal' character development, be it gear, skills allocation, etc etc. They're skilled enough to play the game effectively and I'd argue would have very little problem playing any class, any way. As we move away from that part of the player base to the less skilled players, they begin to rely more and more on those things like equipment and builds to help them get through the game enjoyably.
If you can be anything, be kind.0 -
Veteran 12 NB killing veteran 5 Sorc. Never happned to me that vet 5 or non vet would kill me with two hits only. Pretty much nothing you can do about that.
So now, please tell me if there is minor 10% difference between vet1 and vet12.
Edited by sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO on July 4, 2014 4:38PM0 -
ItsMeToo✭✭✭✭✭Nothing in this game is a grind. I enjoy the journey.FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.Balance is a "Bad" thing.
Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.
Balance is a "Bad" thing.Is the glass half full or half empty?
I say, "Get a smaller glass."0