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Did the Devs lie to me in this thread?

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IKilled007
IKilled007
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In this thread I asked specifically:
Does Zenimax share all the patches it makes in the patch notes?

Or does Zenimax make some changes they do not share with us? And I'm not talking about minor changes like cleaning up some code here and there -- I'm talking about substantive changes to our abilities or mob/npc abilities or to difficulty or to armor and weapons or armor sets, etc.

If they do make stealth changes, why do they do this? Why wouldn't they want us to know about substantive changes?


ZOS_HugoP admin replied unambiguously:
Greetings folks!

Please be sure that the patch-notes contain every change we made to the game, even the smallest one.

If you think that something changed without being listed in the patch-note, feel free to share that with us, so we can review it :)

Thank you!


Where are the patch noted about the wolf respawn rates in Crow's Wood being reduced, effectively destroying it as a farm/grind? Credibility is important to me. Did I miss this patch note? If so, I will apologize profusely. If I did not, WTF devs?
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
  • Mablung
    Mablung
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    It is a lie. Whether intentional or not will never be known. You can read about the last patch and how they missed certain things in the notes and had to compile that list to be released later.

    They do this to blunt the negative feedback expected to come from nerfs/adjustments/fixes and once the dust settles, go back and amend the notes to reflect the changes.

    I am sure there will some official response in how they 'missed' placing this in the patch notes and that it will be reflected in a future set of patch notes. This has been standard practice with this game especially.
  • Fairydragon3
    Fairydragon3
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    If they did...i'm ok with this nerf, but it's possible it's just an unintended bug
  • Mud_Puppy
    Mud_Puppy
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    It's a little white lie, but still a lie.
    /kill
  • yodased
    yodased
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    You think that @ZOS_HugoP writes the patch notes? They are provided to the forum police and they post it.

    The "devs" aren't posting here.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Selique
    Selique
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    Fairydragon3 wrote: »
    If they did...i'm ok with this nerf, but it's possible it's just an unintended bug

    Probably this, OR they forgot to mention it. If you haven't noticed, sometimes the person who writes the Patch Notes might skip something on accident.

    I highly doubt there are nefarious reasons to them forgetting to mention something (They are as human as you and I, after all.) so I'd say cool down, and ask nicely if it was skipped, intentional, or quite possibly, a bug.
    Falls-With-Grace ~ Shadowscale (Argonian Night Blade)
    Selique Lasra ~ Captain, Smuggler, Swashbuckler (Redguard Templar)
    Chases-Comets ~ Shellback Warrior (Argonian Dragon Knight)
    Slissix-Kir ~ Swamp Shaman (Argonian Sorcerer)
    Hail Sithis..
  • IKilled007
    IKilled007
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    Selique wrote: »
    Fairydragon3 wrote: »
    If they did...i'm ok with this nerf, but it's possible it's just an unintended bug

    Probably this, OR they forgot to mention it. If you haven't noticed, sometimes the person who writes the Patch Notes might skip something on accident.

    I highly doubt there are nefarious reasons to them forgetting to mention something (They are as human as you and I, after all.) so I'd say cool down, and ask nicely if it was skipped, intentional, or quite possibly, a bug.

    So it's not dishonesty, it's incompetence?
    The only substitute for victory is overkill.
  • Hypertionb14_ESO
    Hypertionb14_ESO
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    IKilled007 wrote: »
    In this thread I asked specifically:
    Does Zenimax share all the patches it makes in the patch notes?

    Or does Zenimax make some changes they do not share with us? And I'm not talking about minor changes like cleaning up some code here and there -- I'm talking about substantive changes to our abilities or mob/npc abilities or to difficulty or to armor and weapons or armor sets, etc.

    If they do make stealth changes, why do they do this? Why wouldn't they want us to know about substantive changes?


    ZOS_HugoP admin replied unambiguously:
    Greetings folks!

    Please be sure that the patch-notes contain every change we made to the game, even the smallest one.

    If you think that something changed without being listed in the patch-note, feel free to share that with us, so we can review it :)

    Thank you!


    Where are the patch noted about the wolf respawn rates in Crow's Wood being reduced, effectively destroying it as a farm/grind? Credibility is important to me. Did I miss this patch note? If so, I will apologize profusely. If I did not, WTF devs?

    well i warned players that the more they farmed that spot the more likley it would get nerfed..


    they threw back insults
    I play every class in every situation. I love them all.
  • IKilled007
    IKilled007
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    Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

    well i warned players that the more they farmed that spot the more likley it would get nerfed..


    they threw back insults

    What does this have to do with my question?
    The only substitute for victory is overkill.
  • Fairydragon3
    Fairydragon3
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    Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »
    IKilled007 wrote: »
    In this thread I asked specifically:
    Does Zenimax share all the patches it makes in the patch notes?

    Or does Zenimax make some changes they do not share with us? And I'm not talking about minor changes like cleaning up some code here and there -- I'm talking about substantive changes to our abilities or mob/npc abilities or to difficulty or to armor and weapons or armor sets, etc.

    If they do make stealth changes, why do they do this? Why wouldn't they want us to know about substantive changes?


    ZOS_HugoP admin replied unambiguously:
    Greetings folks!

    Please be sure that the patch-notes contain every change we made to the game, even the smallest one.

    If you think that something changed without being listed in the patch-note, feel free to share that with us, so we can review it :)

    Thank you!


    Where are the patch noted about the wolf respawn rates in Crow's Wood being reduced, effectively destroying it as a farm/grind? Credibility is important to me. Did I miss this patch note? If so, I will apologize profusely. If I did not, WTF devs?

    well i warned players that the more they farmed that spot the more likley it would get nerfed..


    they threw back insults

    and probably the fact I ended up reporting those people a while back, as i could not tell them from bots or not, didn't help either
  • NerfEverything
    NerfEverything
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    Material gains from resource refining was nerfed heavily in 1.1. Never mentioned in the patch notes.

    1.2.3 nerfed node respawn rates. Never mentioned in patch notes.
  • Welid
    Welid
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    Come to think of it, I believe my NB forehead looks a bit different after the latest patch.
  • crislevin
    crislevin
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    These patch note are vague, incomplete, and in many cases, useless.

    It would be naive to believe they are accurate.
  • Fairydragon3
    Fairydragon3
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    Welid wrote: »
    Come to think of it, I believe my NB forehead looks a bit different after the latest patch.

    lol well time to unsub....jk jk
  • SirAndy
    SirAndy
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    I've seen plenty of changes that never made it into any of the patch notes. This has been the case since the very beginning.

    ZOS_HugoP response is just a generic "don't panic" reply. He either isn't in the loop or was directed to gloss over the fact that the patch notes have always been lacking many details.
    ;-)
  • Shiroro
    Shiroro
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    There's no management of the changes that are being made. No leadership. The code gets thrown together and released without any testing.

    Stinks of "results-oriented" managers who don't listen to employees.
  • AlexDougherty
    AlexDougherty
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    IKilled007 wrote: »
    Where are the patch noted about the wolf respawn rates in Crow's Wood being reduced, effectively destroying it as a farm/grind? Credibility is important to me. Did I miss this patch note? If so, I will apologize profusely. If I did not, WTF devs?

    Did they lie, technically no, they were commenting on past notes. They implied that it would still be true for future Patch notes, but they couldn't really state that as a fact.

    So while they technically didn't lie, you can safely say they definately mislead us. Especially as recent patch notes have not been complete.
    People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
    Wizard's first rule
    Passion rules reason
    Wizard's third rule
    Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
    Wizard's fifth rule
    Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
    Wizard's tenth rule
  • Snit
    Snit
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    It's interesting that you assume they are lying -- to you personally -- rather than simply assuming that a new developer's patch note/ internal documentation process is not bulletproof.
    Snit AD Sorc
    Ratbag AD Warden Tank
    Goblins AD Stamblade

  • zgrssd
    zgrssd
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    IKilled007 wrote: »
    Where are the patch noted about the wolf respawn rates in Crow's Wood being reduced, effectively destroying it as a farm/grind? Credibility is important to me. Did I miss this patch note? If so, I will apologize profusely. If I did not, WTF devs?
    Wait. Something was not noted explcitly in the patchnotes and your first thought is "Liar, liar pants on fire?"

    Could it not be that they are just fallible humans like me and you?
    Could it not have been a oversight? Like it happened a dozen times already.
    Could it not have been a entirely unintentional side effect? You know that MMO are more complex then your average operating system.

    Do you really think you are so important that Zenimax would intentionally lie to you?
    Are you really thinking you are infallible and would never have made such a mistake?
    Because if you do, that is mighty arrogant of you.
    Elana Peterson (EU), Dominion, Imperial Sorc, Rune & Alchemy Crafting Char
    Leonida Peterson (EU), Daggerfall, Kajiit Nightblade, Tank & main Crafter
    Kurga Peterson (EU), Ebonhart, Ork Dragonknight, Provision Mule
    Coldblood Peterson (EU) Argonian Templer, Daggerfall, Healer
    Incendia Peterson (EU), Dominion, Dunmer Dragonknight, fire DPS & healer
    Haldor Belendor (EU), Ebonhart, Breton Sorcerer, Tank
    Fuliminictus Peterson (EU), Ebonhart, Altmer Sorcerer, Electric DPS

    Me babbling about PvE roles and Armor, Short Guide to Addon Programming (for Programmers)

    If you think anything I or somebody else said violates the Rules of this Forum, you are free to flag my posts. Till I get any notifcaion from this, I just asume you know you have no case against me or Zenimax disagrees with you.
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
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    Where in the TOS does it say that ZOS is required to post Patch Notes or how complete they must be?

    I can see future Patch Notes going something like this;

    Patch x.x.x.x.x

    We did something with the code. Enjoy the patch and have a nice day.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
  • Dusty5
    Dusty5
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    Short answer is. IF your seeing something over and over and your backside is sore for some unknown reason. Yes you were lied to.
  • AlexDougherty
    AlexDougherty
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    Snit wrote: »
    It's interesting that you assume they are lying -- to you personally -- rather than simply assuming that a new developer's patch note/ internal documentation process is not bulletproof.
    zgrssd wrote: »
    IKilled007 wrote: »
    Where are the patch noted about the wolf respawn rates in Crow's Wood being reduced, effectively destroying it as a farm/grind? Credibility is important to me. Did I miss this patch note? If so, I will apologize profusely. If I did not, WTF devs?
    Wait. Something was not noted explcitly in the patchnotes and your first thought is "Liar, liar pants on fire?".

    May I suggest you read the quote in the Op from ZoS, it does say they include every single change, no matter how small.

    That's what the OP is getting at, the implied they cover everything and would continue to do so, then miss things. That was misleading.
    People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
    Wizard's first rule
    Passion rules reason
    Wizard's third rule
    Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
    Wizard's fifth rule
    Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
    Wizard's tenth rule
  • KariTR
    KariTR
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    It could be that the spawn is intuitive and responds to the population of the area.
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
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    From OP;

    "ZOS_HugoP admin replied unambiguously:


    Greetings folks!

    Please be sure that the patch-notes contain every change we made to the game, even the smallest one.

    If you think that something changed without being listed in the patch-note, feel free to share that with us, so we can review it :)

    Thank you!"

    Link please or it's just hear-say.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
  • Ohioastro
    Ohioastro
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    There is a continuous war between exploiters and game designers. There are some cases where, for example, you can get very rapid respawns, and effectively very rapid yields of experience and items, compared to other places.

    This is not in the same category as changing how an ability works. It's fixing a bug, plain and simple. I get that players want something for nothing, and they complain whenever loot pinatas get taken away, but it's still not a "nerf" when something is behaving in a way that was obviously out of whack compared to other places.

    And, yes, I'm sure that there are hundreds of little background tweaks that don't rise to the level of patch notes. And there are anti-exploit changes that they don't want to publicize because they'll give clues to exploiters on how to adjust (and hints about other exploits that people could find.)

    Calling something a lie implies a deliberate intent to deceive. I really doubt that this is the case here. It's closer to being an oversimplification.
  • zgrssd
    zgrssd
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    AlexDougherty wrote: »
    Snit wrote: »
    It's interesting that you assume they are lying -- to you personally -- rather than simply assuming that a new developer's patch note/ internal documentation process is not bulletproof.
    zgrssd wrote: »
    IKilled007 wrote: »
    Where are the patch noted about the wolf respawn rates in Crow's Wood being reduced, effectively destroying it as a farm/grind? Credibility is important to me. Did I miss this patch note? If so, I will apologize profusely. If I did not, WTF devs?
    Wait. Something was not noted explcitly in the patchnotes and your first thought is "Liar, liar pants on fire?".

    May I suggest you read the quote in the Op from ZoS, it does say they include every single change, no matter how small.

    That's what the OP is getting at, the implied they cover everything and would continue to do so, then miss things. That was misleading.
    They document everything, even the stuff they have forgotten to document?
    How can you write something down you forgot to write down?
    And if they had written it down, that would mean they had not forgotten it.

    Also, you should perhaps read to OP again. Especialyl the cite:
    "If you think that something changed without being listed in the patch-note, feel free to share that with us, so we can review it :)"

    This thread is not sharing. It is "naming and shaming" towards "the devs". And I think I just going to reprot it as such.
    Edited by zgrssd on July 2, 2014 9:22PM
    Elana Peterson (EU), Dominion, Imperial Sorc, Rune & Alchemy Crafting Char
    Leonida Peterson (EU), Daggerfall, Kajiit Nightblade, Tank & main Crafter
    Kurga Peterson (EU), Ebonhart, Ork Dragonknight, Provision Mule
    Coldblood Peterson (EU) Argonian Templer, Daggerfall, Healer
    Incendia Peterson (EU), Dominion, Dunmer Dragonknight, fire DPS & healer
    Haldor Belendor (EU), Ebonhart, Breton Sorcerer, Tank
    Fuliminictus Peterson (EU), Ebonhart, Altmer Sorcerer, Electric DPS

    Me babbling about PvE roles and Armor, Short Guide to Addon Programming (for Programmers)

    If you think anything I or somebody else said violates the Rules of this Forum, you are free to flag my posts. Till I get any notifcaion from this, I just asume you know you have no case against me or Zenimax disagrees with you.
  • Selique
    Selique
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    IKilled007 wrote: »
    Selique wrote: »
    Fairydragon3 wrote: »
    If they did...i'm ok with this nerf, but it's possible it's just an unintended bug

    Probably this, OR they forgot to mention it. If you haven't noticed, sometimes the person who writes the Patch Notes might skip something on accident.

    I highly doubt there are nefarious reasons to them forgetting to mention something (They are as human as you and I, after all.) so I'd say cool down, and ask nicely if it was skipped, intentional, or quite possibly, a bug.

    So it's not dishonesty, it's incompetence?

    Like I said, they're humans. I'm sure you're perfect though.
    Edited by Selique on July 2, 2014 9:25PM
    Falls-With-Grace ~ Shadowscale (Argonian Night Blade)
    Selique Lasra ~ Captain, Smuggler, Swashbuckler (Redguard Templar)
    Chases-Comets ~ Shellback Warrior (Argonian Dragon Knight)
    Slissix-Kir ~ Swamp Shaman (Argonian Sorcerer)
    Hail Sithis..
  • LrdRahvin
    LrdRahvin
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    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    Where in the TOS does it say that ZOS is required to post Patch Notes or how complete they must be?

    I can see future Patch Notes going something like this;

    Patch x.x.x.x.x

    We did something with the code. Enjoy the patch and have a nice day.

    You forgot the part where it makes the game completely unplayable
    https://imgflip.com/i/nvvt2
  • IKilled007
    IKilled007
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    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    From OP;

    "ZOS_HugoP admin replied unambiguously:


    Greetings folks!

    Please be sure that the patch-notes contain every change we made to the game, even the smallest one.

    If you think that something changed without being listed in the patch-note, feel free to share that with us, so we can review it :)

    Thank you!"

    Link please or it's just hear-say.

    It was linked. But since you are a special case, I will link it again for you: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111488/does-zenimax-share-all-the-patches-it-makes-in-the-patch-notes
    The only substitute for victory is overkill.
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
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    IKilled007 wrote: »
    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    From OP;

    "ZOS_HugoP admin replied unambiguously:


    Greetings folks!

    Please be sure that the patch-notes contain every change we made to the game, even the smallest one.

    If you think that something changed without being listed in the patch-note, feel free to share that with us, so we can review it :)

    Thank you!"

    Link please or it's just hear-say.

    It was linked. But since you are a special case, I will link it again for you: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111488/does-zenimax-share-all-the-patches-it-makes-in-the-patch-notes

    I'm special... Thanks. I always thought I was and cute too.

    I missed the link as it was hidden in the words.

    I will go read it now.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
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    LrdRahvinb14a_ESO wrote: »
    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    Where in the TOS does it say that ZOS is required to post Patch Notes or how complete they must be?

    I can see future Patch Notes going something like this;

    Patch x.x.x.x.x

    We did something with the code. Enjoy the patch and have a nice day.

    You forgot the part where it makes the game completely unplayable

    No I didn't.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
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