What exactly is wrong with stamina builds?

Ser Lobo · June 2014

ArRashid wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

I don't think a 4th resource should be added. It doesn't fit the TES paradigm and no matter what you name it, it's just another word for stamina. Just make it easier for us stamina users to manage it.

Even in Skyrim, stamina was used for power attacks, sprinting, etc. There wasn't exactly 'abilities' to draw from it in the same manner as here. Since this game alters that mechanic with weapon, armor and fighters guild abilities, I believe it might be necessary to further change the formula to compensate.

Well, but spells there also did 12-50 dmg, while non-staff weapon attacks went up to like what, 350+ with bonuses from blacksmithing and enchanting?

Yeah, basic and heavy weapon attacks were generally stronger, for sure.

jelliedsoup · June 2014

OkieDokie wrote: »

Obviously, it is just my opinion, but give it some thought.

It doesn't matter what weapon you choose, you primary skills or talents come from you class. It is the game concept, really. This is not that medieval reality where the dumb warrior smashes his enemies, there is no such thing when this 'dumb warrior' is capable of using ultimate magicka skills.

And yes, you're right. No good reason for spending points on it except for play style.

Again, just my opinion, but by looking at how the game reality works, I'm convinced they've thought of it in the same way. Therefore, no matter how bad you want it, you're trying something that cannot be achieved.

If someday they say class skills and weapon skills are supposed to be even, then I agree stamina needs a lot of work. But they've never said that, people are just assuming it even if the entire world screams the opposite.

I agree it's your opinion, as is mine. I think it's a poor design choice to allocate higher DPS to those who use class, you've virtually said that anyone who uses weapons is not able to kill as quick and therefore more likely to die, which means weapons are secondary, so who would use them? The amount of damage assigned per skill is purely a design choice, they can very easily switch weapons skills to cause more damage than class, it's not something that cannot be achieved. It's something they don't WANT to achieve, there's a huge difference. I still haven't seen what I consider a rationalised approach to making Class skills superior.

If they're trying to promote diversity and a "play as you want" they need to offer a carrot for those who want weapons, it's really that simple.

I don't know what you mean by the "entire world" and "trying something that cannot be achieved" this game creates its reality, it's a game where devs have made decisions to allocate higher damage to Class skills and not weapon skills, that's all.

OkieDokie · June 2014

That's exactly what I'm saying, it shouldn't be used as primary damage source because it is inferior by design. There is no good reason for investing in stamina builds, except for...I don't know what people who play stamina build say to themselves.

But look, you can play as you want, it is doable. However, there is nothing in this idea that says all builds will be equally effective, just that you can play as you like, and you actually can.

I really wish they could give us an answer about this. If they say it is supposed to be even, damn, I'll test builds on the test server and help with suggestions on how to do it.

ps: I asked it at the developer discussion section (the stamina topic) but got nothing.

Svann · June 2014

Audigy wrote: »

VR´s in general were never meant to be soloed, while some Ranger & Rogue like Chars could solo VR mobs during Beta, the aim was that you look for a group there.

Unfortunately do many players think that the game should always be a solo game, so they attempt VR mobs alone and then of course die.

Thats so silly. There are so few people doing VR these days that if it was group only then no one would do them at all.

Aziz006 · June 2014

Melee skills---> stamina+weapon damage+weapon crit
Spells--->magicka+spell damage+spell crit

It is that easy to balance!
But do we need to balance weapon and class?

lim30041982 · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

lim30041982 wrote: »

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stamina builds. The fault lies in the magicka design. ALL (and I do mean ALL) class skills are magicka. That render stamina builds completely worthless, because you cripple your class.

For example, my Nightblade use medium armor (for boosting weapon damage and sneaking) and dual wielding as primary, but I am forced to enchant everything for magicka because all I use is class skills. I only have 5 skill slots because I play on the EU server - weapon swapping does not work in the heat of battle, especially not in PvP. I need the stealth, I need the backstabbing, I need the teleport, I need finisher. That's 4 out of 5 class skills. The 5th, granted I sometimes take the dagger throw for that. But I cant base my entire build around having 1 stamina skill.

^ This +100 , my dragon knight never read a book (like sorceres) he is training hard with his muscle , kill a bear with barehand , drinks mead with tavern girls , climbing a mountain every day , but when in a battle he want to whack a necromancer the game say "you must use ur mind (magicka) to use that skill"

wtf ?????

Because the fire breathing and scorpion chains and talons coming out of the ground is just you flexing your muscles, right?

Maybe not all class abilities should be magicka based. But there are a few that are pretty self-explanatory.

No i dont need fire breathing and talons for my skill , just give me skills with my 2H sword , i want when i swing that sword hard it will slash that giant leg off , or the giant hand off.

I train my hand very hard , how come i do less damage compared to magic damage ? with my training i should can chops that imbecile head with one swing.

And the weapon damage for all class is the same , wtf ? how come a dragon knight (which is basically warrior class) do the same damage with 2H sword when a sorceres (which is basically .... well sorceres) yield it. They should add better class passive like for dragon knight u got 15%-20% more damage with mele weapon , etc.

All dragon knight passive is for mana based build (more damage with fire ?? ,etc,etc).which is funny because i choose DK because i want to be "warrior"

Ser Lobo · June 2014

lim30041982 wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

lim30041982 wrote: »

murklor007neb18_ESO wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stamina builds. The fault lies in the magicka design. ALL (and I do mean ALL) class skills are magicka. That render stamina builds completely worthless, because you cripple your class.

For example, my Nightblade use medium armor (for boosting weapon damage and sneaking) and dual wielding as primary, but I am forced to enchant everything for magicka because all I use is class skills. I only have 5 skill slots because I play on the EU server - weapon swapping does not work in the heat of battle, especially not in PvP. I need the stealth, I need the backstabbing, I need the teleport, I need finisher. That's 4 out of 5 class skills. The 5th, granted I sometimes take the dagger throw for that. But I cant base my entire build around having 1 stamina skill.

^ This +100 , my dragon knight never read a book (like sorceres) he is training hard with his muscle , kill a bear with barehand , drinks mead with tavern girls , climbing a mountain every day , but when in a battle he want to whack a necromancer the game say "you must use ur mind (magicka) to use that skill"

wtf ?????

Because the fire breathing and scorpion chains and talons coming out of the ground is just you flexing your muscles, right?

Maybe not all class abilities should be magicka based. But there are a few that are pretty self-explanatory.

No i dont need fire breathing and talons for my skill , just give me skills with my 2H sword , i want when i swing that sword hard it will slash that giant leg off , or the giant hand off.

I train my hand very hard , how come i do less damage compared to magic damage ? with my training i should can chops that imbecile head with one swing.

And the weapon damage for all class is the same , wtf ? how come a dragon knight (which is basically warrior class) do the same damage with 2H sword when a sorceres (which is basically .... well sorceres) yield it. They should add better class passive like for dragon knight u got 15%-20% more damage with mele weapon , etc.

All dragon knight passive is for mana based build (more damage with fire ?? ,etc,etc).which is funny because i choose DK because i want to be "warrior"

As the lore on DragonKnights explains, they are a group of warriors so highly trained that they tap into magick in their attacks, fuelling their abilities in ways resembling the fabled dragons of lore. They seem to have started as a small group of soldiers in the Imperial forces, and the phenomenon has expanded.

Unlike the Redguard swordsman, the DragonKnight abilities aren't subtle, and are definitely magicka related.

Just because you chose the wrong class for your preferences, due to lack of information on your part, doesn't mean the class itself is bad.

Tobiz · June 2014

The main problem in my opinion is that there is a lack of stamina synergies.
Tying in more on medium armor is a first step, but it still lacks versatility in ultimates, armor sets and survivability.
Health regen with stamina is there on weapon skills, but negligible where as the multitude of magicka regen can supply magicka based heals.

A stamina build is forced into using magicka however you play it, and even though I believe this is intended, the spells will be quite weak in power, so its mostly for utility, also as intended imo.
Maybe its Melee that is WAI, and magicka is seeing too great benefits on synergies as the Magicka Furnace set was nerfed greatly in patch, this will have a HUGE impact but stamina is still not in the same ballpark.
Stam armor sets need a full revamp, they are few and broken.
Only ultimate that synergize well with stam is Flawless Dawnbreaker, consider the choises of a magicka based build.

I just feel that magicka has a myriad of choises that work well for any build.
As stamina melee based you have to work hard for a playstile that works, using cc and footwork to mitigate damage making fights longer.
It might be intended, but then damage should be through the roof as you have to move around so much compared to the StandInAoe or RangeTillDead playstiles of the magicka build.
Stamina isnt unplayable, but its not as well thought through imo.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

I think for the ultimate thing stamina should build ultimate faster than Magicka builds, though how they can do this without the system being abused is beyond me.

MAYBE they will add an ultimate per weapon. They did mention they are looking to expand the abilities per weapon.

lathbury · July 2014

I think just flat out massively increase white damage on certain weapons dw 2h bow etc. then I can use your stam abilities less to supplement this and armour rating would actually matter as much as spell resist things like flurrys attack speed boost would be usefull etc.

Zenzu · July 2014

Fully tested as a NB critty kitty, with dual wield. Completely went light armor ranged magic after finding out the night and day difference in everything.

When I stopped using my stamina for damage, I found I could actually dodge and sprint and use unmovable. Then healing. The ability to heal for more, more often, offsets ANY other defensive advantage; except reflective scales, also magicka based.

I imagine this is so unbalanced for the same reason everything else in the game is borked. Game released before it was finished.

Shaun98ca2 · July 2014

Zenzu wrote: »

Fully tested as a NB critty kitty, with dual wield. Completely went light armor ranged magic after finding out the night and day difference in everything.

I imagine this is so unbalanced for the same reason everything else in the game is borked. Game released before it was finished.

When you tested the Magicka build were you using Magicka gain abilities IE Restro Staff/Equilibrium ?????

Try testing

A FULL Magicka build with ZERO points towards Stamina use NO Magicka gain A FULL Stamina build with ZERO points towards Magicka.

Test BEST DPS WITH full all out resource burn on BOTH builds.
Test BEST DPS with NO resource usage on EITHER build.

Compare notes.

Rylana · July 2014

Not a thing is wrong with them anymore OP