Difficulty should start at level 10, not VR1

badmojo · June 2014

I recently finished 1-50 and moved over to the AD VR1 area, and I'm happy to finally be there. I feel like the game has finally started for me. I coasted through 1-50 because I didn't need to worry about it. Any time I died it was usually due to my stupidity, lag or something bugged out. After playing VR1, I feel like 1-50 was just a really long tutorial with a good story.

It's worth mentioning that I'm playing a stamina focused duel wielding nightblade, I was led to believe that was the worst class for tackling VR content, but I'm not running into any problems so far. Don't get me wrong, it's no walk in the park, but I never wanted this game to be a walk in the park. I like difficulty in my Elder Scrolls games. I want to struggle to take on 3 enemies, I want to almost die when I accidentally aggro a couple more and have to fight off 5 at once. That makes me a better player, it gets my emotions flowing, and even sometimes a little adrenaline.

I think it was a mistake to wait until VR levels to throw this difficulty in our faces. Not only does it make people think their crappy builds and strategies are valid, but it also makes the 10-50 feel boring alot of the times. From 1-10 you struggle a bit to get your character into shape, but after that it seems like a cake walk.

I think a good change to this game would be to make level 10 be the starting point for more difficult content. You're being sent to Cyrodiil at that point, so it makes sense to me that things everywhere should be getting progressively harder. People wouldn't spend 40 levels thinking their setup is good, only to fall flat on their face in VR content. And people like me who enjoy a difficult game wouldn't have to endure so much "tutorial" to get to the good fights.

I almost feel like we're cheated out of enjoying our own homelands, because it's such a cake walk.

Edit: I made a basic graph to illustrate what I'm talking about.

Excuse the poor mspaint skill and the figures aren't exact, it's the curve I'm mostly concerned with.

Sharee · June 2014

I wish it could be like that. But i fear the game would suffer for it, subscriber-count-wise. People simply aren't used to games being hard these days. I'm glad VR is a challenge, at least.

Faustes · June 2014

I think you're mistaking your own personal enjoyment with what the majority of players want.

If difficulty ramped up at level 10, most people would just quit at that point. Most people don't play Elder Scroll games for their difficulty (and they aren't known for this either). There are far superior games if you want a "hard" game.

In addition, leveling up in the majority of MMO's isn't supposed to be particularly difficult. Difficult content generally comes in terms of group content like dungeons and raids at endgame, not simply getting to maximum level.

nudel · June 2014

Ideally, they could implement a 'difficulty phasing' toggle. This has already been suggested a few times by other players. Then you could choose between "Normal" and "Veteran" mode.

hamon · June 2014

vr1 is easy cos your back to groups of 1 or 2.. the groups of 3 dont really appear untill vr4 , then again at vr 7-8

badmojo · June 2014

Faustes wrote: »

I think you're mistaking your own personal enjoyment with what the majority of players want.

If difficulty ramped up at level 10, most people would just quit at that point. Most people don't play Elder Scroll games for their difficulty (and they aren't known for this either). There are far superior games if you want a "hard" game.

In addition, leveling up in the majority of MMO's isn't supposed to be particularly difficult. Difficult content generally comes in terms of group content like dungeons and raids at endgame, not simply getting to maximum level.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not considering what others want. All the people who complain about VR content would obviously hate my suggestion. But, I also don't think it's right to string them along for 50 levels only to throw difficulty in their faces. It would be interesting to have a poll asking those people who left at VR1 if they would have preferred to know sooner how difficulty it was going to eventually be. Perhaps they wouldn't be so angry about the shift if they were given more time to adapt. It would also provide them more opportunity to change up their build to improve it. Let's be honest, at VR1 you don't want to scrap a bunch of abilities you've leveled up for the last ~200 hrs. But, at level 10, it might not be such a big deal.

It's interesting to hear that most MMOs don't make leveling difficult. I'm glad that ZOS has taken a different route in this regard.

badmojo · June 2014

hamon wrote: »

vr1 is easy cos your back to groups of 1 or 2.. the groups of 3 dont really appear untill vr4 , then again at vr 7-8

It's true there are a lot of singles and doubles in VR1, but there are certainly enough groups of three to get a feel for the new difficulty. Especially if you pull two groups at once.

TheVindelator · June 2014

I think they should have given us hard and easy modes.

Only way to keep the most people happy.

Magdalina · June 2014

I don't want to scare you, but I think you should wait til at least vet 3-4 to form a decisive opinion on vet content;) First vet zones were originally starter ones so mobs very rarely come in packs of 3 there and feature no healers(amusingly, that's also true for vet 6, maybe 7, zone).

I used to think it was fun, too. For a couple of weeks. Now I'm vet 9 and I mostly prefer farming containers to questing=(

Far as your suggestion goes...you are right that major part of vet disappointment is the difficulty ramp up is very sudden and absolutely unexpected. However, I don't think ramping it the same way at lvl 10 would help anyone. There clearly needs to be less of a gap between a lvl 49-50 mob and a vet 1, though.

dido9880ub17_ESO · June 2014

I agree that the difficulty should start scaling a lot earlier. I think that level 10 is a little early for that as a lot of the players are still learning to play their character at that point, but I think at least by the fourth or fifth zone in your faction the difficulty should ramp up.

I think making 1-50 so much easier than VR is really doing a disservice to the community because it doesn't give any of the players a reason to start practicing defensive strategies.

Making VR content easier isn't really a good answer, in my opinion, because I think most people play games to be challenged, but with the difficulty jumping in such a staggering fashion between 1-50 and VR a lot of players are feeling that the characters they have leveled for 50 levels isn't any good. This isn't good either because most people do not want to redesign a character or feel like they just need to learn to play at that point in a game.

Making the difficulty curve smoother would allow people to realize defensive strategies, and tactical approaches to combats are important during the part of the game where players are still in the process of designing the strategies that they enjoy with their characters. Instead I think people are being forced to redesign how they play their character at a point where the feel they should be refining strategies and not redesigning them. This is leading to a lot of frustrated and annoyed players.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · June 2014

@‌badmojo

Depends the class & build. If you are an SC, DK, NB with min max build then yes 1-50 is a breeze. And at VR levels you will encounter almost to non existent resistance either. (DKs can solo the Dolmens also).

However, if you are (were up to few days ago) a Templar, that tried to go through with Heavy armour, sword and shield and only healing then you suffered.

Also, many people like myself are here for the PvP and want to get rid off the 1-50 quickly, but without feeling the grind. Hence raising the difficulty after level 10, will create the same issues there are in VR levels. Where only min-max builds will work, and not rag tag skills in line for fun.

Evandus · June 2014

It seemed like they were taking this approach orginally actually. Then came the slew of complaints about Gutsripper, Doisha, and Mannimarco for example. I still see players complaining in zone or on other sites about their current difficulty. Or any required strategy other than run in spamming one skill or the left mouse button.

Players changed this imo by repeatedly complaining Bastille Day style. Encounters have been nerfed several times now. And you still occasionally see players coming to the forums complaining about them.

Pele · June 2014

As others have suggested, offering different modes of difficulty would be the better option as it would cover most of the player base.

Katarina · June 2014

No it shouldn't begin at level 10 cause any player who just started the game would have a list of things they'd like to try out/learn before taking on a fruity challenge. And there's no real point in increasing difficulty if there's nothing to compensate for.

Example, if they enable difficulty selection in single-player (or group instanced) quests, the player(s) will receive higher quality loot and/or rewards (in gold/items, not xp) if they complete the quest on an extreme tier whilst meeting its level requirements (to prevent outlevelled players from taking advantage).

Fleymark · June 2014

Maybe not 10...Every zone is basically the same thing after the first regular one...3 dolmens, 6 bosses, 5 (or 6 I always forget) public dungeons, one hard public dungeon and a group instance x3 across the factions. The first zone takes you to 15 or 18 or so and it takes a bit to get your head around the flow of the game.

But after that, I agree, it should scale up starting in the the second tier so that when you do get to vet levels it's not such an abrupt change in difficulty.

Lunerdog · June 2014

For those that want greater difficulty, you can have it at any time you want.

Play with base value none enchanted armour equipped, or no armour at all.

Respec and don't use passives and if you want really difficult then don't use skills at all, just head out with a sword and board equipped and rely on light and heavy attacks.

The mechanism for you to have greater difficulty is already there, you just need to use it but while some people are saying they want greater difficulty very very few of them will actually choose to do this, wonder why that is then ???

However that's not the case for those who are struggling and have slower reflexes or a disability etc, making the game more difficult would be extremely unfair on them as they pay exactly the same amount of money as you do yet content in higher difficulty areas is off limits to them.

In reality, the only way to keep everybody happy is going to be to introduce variable difficulty in the pve zones, to make all things equal they could make it so you choose your difficulty setting at log on and then everyone in your instance is on the same setting as you.

Giving customers the choice what ever your product is usually keeps them happy, happy customers keep paying.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Special dungeons, Trials, and zones should be set aside for players who want a more challenging experience. Or hell, let them toggle every zone just like they choose to for dungeons.

But leveling should NOT be locked under more difficult content. I believe statistics are showing ZOS (statistics I'm just guessing at), that a majority of players who are leaving the game do so around VR1-2, or reroll.

As many, including myself, have stated: 1-50 is a fairly well tuned experience for the average player. One of the best leveling experiences I've had. Power increase is proportional, rewards are decent, challenge is solid.

There are players who got it well before me. And after getting my act together in VR, my alts are breezing through 1-50 content due to me learning how to play. But that doesn't mean that is should be changed for EVERYONE.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

I love it when people at VR1 come on and say, it's a walk in the park, I don't know what all the fuss was about. It's like that fella with the NB VR2 video, I never did see an update..

Yes, VR1 is easy enough. Come back in a few levels and tell us you are still happy. I'm not say you won't be, only it is too soon to tell.
Also you are missing the point, few people find VR too hard. It's the endless grind for nothing that bothers people.

I like difficulty in my Elder Scrolls games

I would love to know what you base this on, I've never even seen a difficult TES game. Maybe you have some crazy mods...

Alphashado · June 2014

V7 Templar here. Last night I came across a mob of skeleton warriors that popped up out of the ground when I approached a tent and back pack. This in itself is fine. I was surprised and I am supposed to be surprised. Problem is that by the time I drew my weapon I was dead.

Went back for revenge and died again. This time being fully aware of them. Two of them assaulting you with rapid melee attacks that hit for 400 dmg and the 3rd throwing daggers at you that hit for 800-900 dmg.

I beat them eventually after dying a 3rd time. Point is that this isn't fun. It's ridiculous. This is a trash mob that popped out of the ground at a random back pack. I don't want to die a few times, rethink my strategy, swap abilities around on my skill bar and develop a tactic in order to beat this stupid trash mob.

I really am getting tired of it. I log in less and less each day. Its tedious, grindy, and just plain ridiculous. I don't want to be forced to handle a random pack of trash mobs like a freakin raid boss.

You do this garbage at lvl 10 and this game will lose another gigantic chunk of subs.

KariTR · June 2014

Why go back though Alpha, they didn't need to be killed.

@OP I also suggested that L1-L50 be ramped up a bit so there isn't the disparity between normal and Vet ranks, but as much as some people complain about difficulty, I don't think in my 6 levels of playing as a Veteran that I have come across anything as difficult as some of the main/guild story quest bosses.

Someone else already said it I think. If you get to VR without having learned anything from those earlier hard fights then the player only has themselves to blame.

And take no notice of those saying "but you're only VR 1". It doesn't get 'harder' than the first maps (not starter), though it may introduce NPC formations and tactics that you have to adapt to.

Alphashado · June 2014

KariTR wrote: »

Why go back though Alpha, they didn't need to be killed.

@OP I also suggested that L1-L50 be ramped up a bit so there isn't the disparity between normal and Vet ranks, but as much as some people complain about difficulty, I don't think in my 6 levels of playing as a Veteran that I have come across anything as difficult as some of the main/guild story quest bosses.

Someone else already said it I think. If you get to VR without having learned anything from those earlier hard fights then the player only has themselves to blame.

And take no notice of those saying "but you're only VR 1". It doesn't get 'harder' than the first maps (not starter), though it may introduce NPC formations and tactics that you have to adapt to.

Because I am not going to wussy-foot my way through these zones. You shouldn't have to sneak around and avoid every trash mob on the path. Maybe you enjoy that. I don't.

As I have said before and you yourself mention in the quote above. Everything can be beaten with concentration and adaption. But many people like myself don't enjoy expending this much thought and preparation for every trash mob in the zone.

Have you seen the population of vet zones? Now you want the lower lvl zones to be just as dead. Go ahead and ramp them up and watch another mass exodus. Then. ESO will be forever known as the most expensive MMO that the most players left the fastest.

Vendersleigh · June 2014

Lunerdog wrote: »

For those that want greater difficulty, you can have it at any time you want.

Play with base value none enchanted armour equipped, or no armour at all.

Respec and don't use passives and if you want really difficult then don't use skills at all, just head out with a sword and board equipped and rely on light and heavy attacks.

The mechanism for you to have greater difficulty is already there, you just need to use it but while some people are saying they want greater difficulty very very few of them will actually choose to do this, wonder why that is then ???

However that's not the case for those who are struggling and have slower reflexes or a disability etc, making the game more difficult would be extremely unfair on them as they pay exactly the same amount of money as you do yet content in higher difficulty areas is off limits to them.

In reality, the only way to keep everybody happy is going to be to introduce variable difficulty in the pve zones, to make all things equal they could make it so you choose your difficulty setting at log on and then everyone in your instance is on the same setting as you.

Giving customers the choice what ever your product is usually keeps them happy, happy customers keep paying.

Exactly this.
I am one of those players with a disability and already struggle in the mid20s. I enjoy it well enough to keep playing but any harder and I would not.

You can create your own difficulty by following the suggestions quoted above.

EQBallzz · June 2014

You are VR1. Most don't have issues there. Wait till you get VR5+ before making a judgment about difficulty. I personally didn't have any issues with a bow/dw NB until VR5 Bangkorai and even that was still doable but started getting somewhat frustrating. Grahtwood (VR7) and beyond started getting much more frustrating. It's nice and all that you think VR1 is representative of vet difficulty enough to make a big declaration about it but it's really not.

KariTR · June 2014

VR2-4 were easier than VR1, which is on a par with VR5.

Sakiri · June 2014

Evandus wrote: »

It seemed like they were taking this approach orginally actually. Then came the slew of complaints about Gutsripper, Doisha, and Mannimarco for example. I still see players complaining in zone or on other sites about their current difficulty. Or any required strategy other than run in spamming one skill or the left mouse button.

Players changed this imo by repeatedly complaining Bastille Day style. Encounters have been nerfed several times now. And you still occasionally see players coming to the forums complaining about them.

Thats actually how VR got how it is.

"Whaaaaaaa this isnt hard enough!"

Multiplied hp and damage by a stupid value.

Malmai · June 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

@‌badmojo

Depends the class & build. If you are an SC, DK, NB with min max build then yes 1-50 is a breeze. And at VR levels you will encounter almost to non existent resistance either. (DKs can solo the Dolmens also).

However, if you are (were up to few days ago) a Templar, that tried to go through with Heavy armour, sword and shield and only healing then you suffered.

Also, many people like myself are here for the PvP and want to get rid off the 1-50 quickly, but without feeling the grind. Hence raising the difficulty after level 10, will create the same issues there are in VR levels. Where only min-max builds will work, and not rag tag skills in line for fun.

Every Class can solo Dolmens.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · June 2014

nudel wrote: »

Ideally, they could implement a 'difficulty phasing' toggle. This has already been suggested a few times by other players. Then you could choose between "Normal" and "Veteran" mode.

That would be impossible to do in an MMO. Literally impossible.

Lodestar · June 2014

Katarina wrote: »

No it shouldn't begin at level 10 cause any player who just started the game would have a list of things they'd like to try out/learn before taking on a fruity challenge. And there's no real point in increasing difficulty if there's nothing to compensate for.

Example, if they enable difficulty selection in single-player (or group instanced) quests, the player(s) will receive higher quality loot and/or rewards (in gold/items, not xp) if they complete the quest on an extreme tier whilst meeting its level requirements (to prevent outlevelled players from taking advantage).

See this, and raise the fact, that VR difficulty, is best where it is, so that those who want the challenge can have at it, and let the casuals play their way and opt out later.

No triple AAA title can really afford to be so niche as to cater 100% for that style of gamer I don't think.

badmojo · June 2014

Level 10 was just an example. The game should progressively get harder, not make big jumps.

Lunerdog wrote: »

For those that want greater difficulty, you can have it at any time you want.

Play with base value none enchanted armour equipped, or no armour at all.

Respec and don't use passives and if you want really difficult then don't use skills at all, just head out with a sword and board equipped and rely on light and heavy attacks.

The mechanism for you to have greater difficulty is already there, you just need to use it but while some people are saying they want greater difficulty very very few of them will actually choose to do this, wonder why that is then ???

However that's not the case for those who are struggling and have slower reflexes or a disability etc, making the game more difficult would be extremely unfair on them as they pay exactly the same amount of money as you do yet content in higher difficulty areas is off limits to them.

In reality, the only way to keep everybody happy is going to be to introduce variable difficulty in the pve zones, to make all things equal they could make it so you choose your difficulty setting at log on and then everyone in your instance is on the same setting as you.

Giving customers the choice what ever your product is usually keeps them happy, happy customers keep paying.

I agree with that to a point. The product needs to be consistent though. It's kind of unfair to let those people enjoy the 1-50 at an easy difficulty, then ramp it up to the point where they quit at VR levels. I think a gradual curve rather than the huge jump would be beneficial to both types.

I did go the route of making the game more difficult for myself during the 1-50 by using lower level armor & gear. It increased the difficulty a bit, but it still doesn't make the enemy any more challenging to be honest. They were still really easy to fight. And now that I'm VR, a friend and I have been running some level 45 dungeons just two of us, and we even ran around the VR4 area with relative ease.

I do go out of my way to find the diffiuclty, I just thikn the game would improve if they make the graduation to VR less drastic, by ramping up the 1-50 slightly to line up with it.

badmojo · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

I love it when people at VR1 come on and say, it's a walk in the park, I don't know what all the fuss was about. It's like that fella with the NB VR2 video, I never did see an update..

Yes, VR1 is easy enough. Come back in a few levels and tell us you are still happy. I'm not say you won't be, only it is too soon to tell.
Also you are missing the point, few people find VR too hard. It's the endless grind for nothing that bothers people.

I like difficulty in my Elder Scrolls games

I would love to know what you base this on, I've never even seen a difficult TES game. Maybe you have some crazy mods...

I like the increased difficulty the VR1 enemies provide. I even ran around slaying VR4's last night, what's your point? Do I not have the experience to comment on the transition from 49 to VR1? I didn't say "All vr levels are a walk in the park", so what is the problem?

The grind being boring is another discussion. I'm just talking about mobs versus player. To me, the game being a faceroll makes it a boring grind, the whole 1-50 was starting to feel that way to me. To each their own I guess.

The way I played Oblivion & Skyrim was usually as a melee stamina build, so yes it could get very difficult. I've recently gone back and played Skyrim as a mage and was amazed at how much easier it was going that route. I enjoyed the game being difficult, that's what initially got me into TES, going into some bandit camp outside the Imperial City and promptly getting my ass kicked. I was hooked instantly, that inside this big living world, I couldn't get enough.

I never played the single player TES games to be the best of the best. I played them to have fun, with that mindset, I found plenty of difficulty to make it fun.

badmojo · June 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

V7 Templar here. Last night I came across a mob of skeleton warriors that popped up out of the ground when I approached a tent and back pack. This in itself is fine. I was surprised and I am supposed to be surprised. Problem is that by the time I drew my weapon I was dead.

Went back for revenge and died again. This time being fully aware of them. Two of them assaulting you with rapid melee attacks that hit for 400 dmg and the 3rd throwing daggers at you that hit for 800-900 dmg.

I beat them eventually after dying a 3rd time. Point is that this isn't fun. It's ridiculous. This is a trash mob that popped out of the ground at a random back pack. I don't want to die a few times, rethink my strategy, swap abilities around on my skill bar and develop a tactic in order to beat this stupid trash mob.

I really am getting tired of it. I log in less and less each day. Its tedious, grindy, and just plain ridiculous. I don't want to be forced to handle a random pack of trash mobs like a freakin raid boss.

You do this garbage at lvl 10 and this game will lose another gigantic chunk of subs.

Level 10 would be the starting point, I'm not asking for them to ramp up level 10 the way VR1 is compared to 49. Rather it would be a slight increase each level until the transition from 49 to VR1 is hardly noticeable.

Here's a graph to illustrate what I'm saying.(excuse my poor MSpaint skills)