Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Zenimax - what are you doing??
terryammon
✭✭✭
WFT are you doing Zenimax... 1.2.3 bought some nasty bugs with it, like the new fps bug, Silver Shards bug to vamps (i would class as a easy fix) and you still haven't fixed them...
Your customers have paid for a game thats not payable and you just don't seem to care
Your customers have paid for a game thats not payable and you just don't seem to care
6
-
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭IBTL.
Totally agree with the sentiment, 1.2.3 is probably the most horrible 'patch' I've seen in any game or any piece of software, ever. The sheer amount of breakage is breathtaking by any yardstick.2 -
I hope that all the testers are vamps in Cyrodiil like both of my poor characters are.
Might as well start leveling a DK!Leader of Team Excision
V12 NB Arainai
V12 Sorc Alma Mobley
http://www.twitch.tv/pigglesworthy
"You can't fix stupid" - Rosa Parks0 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've noticed that the health bars above my enemies' heads are disappearing at random about half the time since the patch.
Don't get me wrong, I love this game - warts and all. I feel at home here.
But I'm curious. For those of you that are technically minded, why does every patch seem to break more than it fixes? I seem to notice most of the bugs with quest objectives/NPCs. Someone suggested it had to do with the way that the megaserver instances content, but I don't know enough to agree or disagree.
Any ideas? I'd genuinely like to know, just out of curiosity.0 -
Zxaxz✭✭✭Just an FYI, there is no way for players to test AvA / PvP, it is not possible on the PTS, just not possible. There is only one faction that can Maxed up to PvP, no way to kill your own faction = no AvA testing.
Sign up below to level and gear a PTS toon to V12, for only testing bugs. ~crickets~Edited by Zxaxz on June 27, 2014 6:58AMDarkness is the natural state of the galaxy. A light will not shine forever; one day it will burn itself out. Darkness, however, is everlasting and never expires.1 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Objectively, bugs make it live due to inadequate testing during development and QA, that's just a statement of fact.milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »But I'm curious. For those of you that are technically minded, why does every patch seem to break more than it fixes? I seem to notice most of the bugs with quest objectives/NPCs. Someone suggested it had to do with the way that the megaserver instances content, but I don't know enough to agree or disagree.
Any ideas? I'd genuinely like to know, just out of curiosity.
If the programmers didn't make so many errors and if the QA department's testing strategies and processes were more robust horrors such as 1.2.3 can't happen. The old adage "bugs are inevitable" is no excuse.
As to why the testing was patently so inadequate, that's impossible to know outside ZOS. Assuming financial pressures aren't there .. like there were when the game was launched .. then pressure from development management to 'ship' to be seen to be doing something given the huge backlog of game-breaking and progress-blocking bugs could easily mean testing is abbreviated or even not done.
The fact ZOS delayed 1.2.3 for 24-hours was a bad sign, clearly they knew things weren't good on Monday yet they still implemented a day later in the appalling state it was in.
Someone in ZOS management took the decision to deploy even though they probably knew it was badly broken. Of course, they'll never admit it, but frankly I find it literally unbelievable that some of the patently obvious and 100% guaranteed breakage bugs 1.2.3 has weren't known about beforehand.
The only other situation is that ZOS genuinely didn't know the terrible state 1.2.3 was in .. in which case the QA manager should already be looking for another job elsewhere, because to put it bluntly his department failed big time!Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on June 27, 2014 7:05AM5 -
wllstrt75b14_ESO✭✭✭Dude the entire management staff at Zenimax should all resign for failing miserably at the most basic function of any business and that is customer care. It is really easy to say hey we were going to put out a patch but the patch is crap and we need to refine it. everyone would appreciate that and understand that but nope the release the garbage here in the US get the feed back and then repeat the same crap on the euro server like nothing happened. Second time in a row they released a larger patch that broke more then it fixed.
So clueless.Edited by wllstrt75b14_ESO on June 27, 2014 7:20AM1 -
RedMiniStapler✭✭✭What are they doing? Well we already know it ain't fixing bugs before releasing a very buggy patch.0 -
KhajiitiLizard✭✭✭✭✭PvE seems unaffected. I played today and it was exactly how it was pre patch. Perhaps some people would come back to PvE so that we can actually get groups. lol0 -
The_Sadist✭✭✭✭✭RageKiwiEater wrote: »ZOS testers need to burn with fire
I'm under the assumption they don't test patches before they release them, at all, given the sheer magnitude of stuff which breaks per patch.
"Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." ― Zurin Arctus, the Underking.Tragrim - How do I work this thing?
Casually stalking the forums0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭wllstrt75b14_ESO wrote: »Dude the entire management staff at Zenimax should all resign for failing miserably at the most basic function of any business and that is customer care. It is really easy to say hey we were going to put out a patch but the patch is crap and we need to refine it. everyone would appreciate that and understand that but nope the release the garbage here in the US get the feed back and then repeat the same crap on the euro server like nothing happened. Second time in a row they released a larger patch that broke more then it fixed.
So clueless.
Talk about clueless. A large part of the problem here in this thread is that many here have mistaken expectations. Management's primary responsibility (in any company) is not customer care. Management's primary responsibility is to pay the bills and earn a profit. They don't work for you the customer. They work for the shareholders. Some companies can put customers as a higher priority than other companies but that usually involves higher end companies that sell expensive luxury items. See Starbucks vs McDonald's. Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
1 -
Dayv✭✭✭✭They didn't allocate enough time for testing. Engineers hate documentation and testing because it's boring and it sucks, but good engineers also know that skipping it only makes things worse in the long run. I get the feeling that things are being rushed at ZOS and QA is being ignored. Things are being sneaked in even after the code should have been frozen. It seems like they are operating in panic mode. They need to stop making rash last minute changes and get focused properly . Making less changes, but making them right actually speeds progress because there aren't new bugs that need fixing.0 -
KhajiitiLizard✭✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
There was that mech game on the original Xbox that required this expensive controller. I guess that counted as a $250 video game.
0 -
Zxaxz✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
@wrlifeboilwllstrt75b14_ESO wrote: »Dude the entire management staff at Zenimax should all resign for failing miserably at the most basic function of any business and that is customer care. It is really easy to say hey we were going to put out a patch but the patch is crap and we need to refine it. everyone would appreciate that and understand that but nope the release the garbage here in the US get the feed back and then repeat the same crap on the euro server like nothing happened. Second time in a row they released a larger patch that broke more then it fixed.
So clueless.
Talk about clueless. A large part of the problem here in this thread is that many here have mistaken expectations. Management's primary responsibility (in any company) is not customer care. Management's primary responsibility is to pay the bills and earn a profit. They don't work for you the customer. They work for the shareholders. Some companies can put customers as a higher priority than other companies but that usually involves higher end companies that sell expensive luxury items. See Starbucks vs McDonald's. Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
And, yet;
If you went to McDonalds you would still expect the $8 an hour employee to make you a BigMac and fries, with a coke at the drive thru; But nope, You got a meat patty outside of the Bun, and it looks like the leaf of lettuce is the actually Heart of the lettuce just a ball, hard, round, smashed into the top. Oh, and the fries then got soaked when the lid on your drink was not put on properly, when you spilled it on your lap.
But, of course you would just eat the wet fries and the lettuce ball, and use the well suppied napkin to wipe the Coke up from your lap. Yea, for sure, thats what you would do.Edited by Zxaxz on June 27, 2014 8:01AMDarkness is the natural state of the galaxy. A light will not shine forever; one day it will burn itself out. Darkness, however, is everlasting and never expires.0 -
wrlifeboil wrote: »Talk about clueless. A large part of the problem here in this thread is that many here have mistaken expectations. Management's primary responsibility (in any company) is not customer care. Management's primary responsibility is to pay the bills and earn a profit. They don't work for you the customer. They work for the shareholders. Some companies can put customers as a higher priority than other companies but that usually involves higher end companies that sell expensive luxury items. See Starbucks vs McDonald's. Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
That analogy fails on so many levels. Video games ARE an expensive luxury item. MMOs especially, and customer care is certainly a maor focus, or should be. If your customers are not happy, they walk. If your customers walk, suddenly you go from making profit, to eating losses trying to keep the game afloat, or worse, a total loss on the game's shutdown.0 -
LadyDestiny✭✭✭✭✭gorant1313ub17_ESO wrote: »I hope that all the testers are vamps in Cyrodiil like both of my poor characters are.
Might as well start leveling a DK!
I have a feeling they are playing a different class now. That is why they beefed up silver shards........lol I wonder what the flavor of the month is now?0 -
At least I can still play PvE. I avoid PvP mostly. But with latest patch there is even less reasson to go there for kill quest. To kill a class is just stupid delay imho.0 -
SaibotLiu✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »wllstrt75b14_ESO wrote: »Dude the entire management staff at Zenimax should all resign for failing miserably at the most basic function of any business and that is customer care. It is really easy to say hey we were going to put out a patch but the patch is crap and we need to refine it. everyone would appreciate that and understand that but nope the release the garbage here in the US get the feed back and then repeat the same crap on the euro server like nothing happened. Second time in a row they released a larger patch that broke more then it fixed.
So clueless.
Talk about clueless. A large part of the problem here in this thread is that many here have mistaken expectations. Management's primary responsibility (in any company) is not customer care. Management's primary responsibility is to pay the bills and earn a profit. They don't work for you the customer. They work for the shareholders. Some companies can put customers as a higher priority than other companies but that usually involves higher end companies that sell expensive luxury items. See Starbucks vs McDonald's. Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
Food isnt a luxury item, video games are. I could let the fact you're using a terrible analogy go if it at least made sense. Also, how much you're spending doesnt always matter, its more about the nature of the product you're selling. In video games it's all very impersonal, and that's why video game forums are a popular medium. We have no real direct contact with the developer, at least nothing regular or meaningful. So people come here to work through their problems. There's a place to leave feedback, but generally players have no real way to know whether it will be acted on or not.
I work in the wagering industry. I deal personally with clients sometimes who have spent millions of dollars. It is all very personal and you get to know the people, they get to know you. But at the end of the day, despite the amount of money they may be worth to the company, I often find myself in a position where I have to tell them no. I don't like to do it, especially when you've developed some camaraderie and familiarity with them, but that's reality.
So I do have to disagree with you considerably. The amount of money being spent often has no direct correlation to the level of customer service or satisfaction.0 -
Covyn✭✭✭Should probably post this over on Reddit Forums....it is known that ZoS does not worry themselves with anything posted within their own forums.Gyxx (VR1) Templar
Quidd (VR5) Nightblade
Kadzien (15) Sorc
Covyn (VR12) DragonKnight (now spends his days crafting)1 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭x2link777b14_ESO wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »Talk about clueless. A large part of the problem here in this thread is that many here have mistaken expectations. Management's primary responsibility (in any company) is not customer care. Management's primary responsibility is to pay the bills and earn a profit. They don't work for you the customer. They work for the shareholders. Some companies can put customers as a higher priority than other companies but that usually involves higher end companies that sell expensive luxury items. See Starbucks vs McDonald's. Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
That analogy fails on so many levels. Video games ARE an expensive luxury item. MMOs especially, and customer care is certainly a maor focus, or should be. If your customers are not happy, they walk. If your customers walk, suddenly you go from making profit, to eating losses trying to keep the game afloat, or worse, a total loss on the game's shutdown.
Kids nowadays. Video games are discretionary items but they aren't luxury items. Video games are mass market. You can go to Wal-Mart to buy the top selling video games. There is no special status or cachet associated with buying or owning a video game that almost anyone else can afford to buy.0 -
Nidwin✭✭✭milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »But I'm curious. For those of you that are technically minded, why does every patch seem to break more than it fixes? I seem to notice most of the bugs with quest objectives/NPCs. Someone suggested it had to do with the way that the megaserver instances content, but I don't know enough to agree or disagree.
They just don't have the time and never will because that's how this very particular part of the gaming industry works.
In the company I work for we have five to eight months of testing after the first code drop for this amount of code change. (Let's say with the Craglorn patch included)
Product test
System test
Acceptance test (both Business and Technical)
Transition Test (three iterations) That's the deployment that gets simulated and this four to six weeks prior Implementation date.
And once the new code in production we always have a Post implementation (one or twee weeks later) to fix all the bugs that weren't spotted during testing.
Nidwinqq Templar (healzzz) United Warhammer Vets
Nidwinqq RR100 Magus till the end, R.I.P. Badlands0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »wllstrt75b14_ESO wrote: »Dude the entire management staff at Zenimax should all resign for failing miserably at the most basic function of any business and that is customer care. It is really easy to say hey we were going to put out a patch but the patch is crap and we need to refine it. everyone would appreciate that and understand that but nope the release the garbage here in the US get the feed back and then repeat the same crap on the euro server like nothing happened. Second time in a row they released a larger patch that broke more then it fixed.
So clueless.
Talk about clueless. A large part of the problem here in this thread is that many here have mistaken expectations. Management's primary responsibility (in any company) is not customer care. Management's primary responsibility is to pay the bills and earn a profit. They don't work for you the customer. They work for the shareholders. Some companies can put customers as a higher priority than other companies but that usually involves higher end companies that sell expensive luxury items. See Starbucks vs McDonald's. Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
Food isnt a luxury item...
First phrase in the first sentence killed your argument.0 -
LrdRahvin✭✭✭✭✭RedMiniStapler wrote: »What are they doing? Well we already know it ain't fixing bugs before releasing a very buggy patch.
They devoted dev and coding time and resources to giving us junk weapons that can't be vendored; we should be grateful for the immersion that having more pointless junk brings and ignore the fact the game is largely unplayable pvp-wise.
1 -
wrlifeboil wrote: »Kids nowadays. Video games are discretionary items but they aren't luxury items. Video games are mass market. You can go to Wal-Mart to buy the top selling video games. There is no special status or cachet associated with buying or owning a video game that almost anyone else can afford to buy.
Resorting to childish insults. Video games are not a necessity good, therefore, they are a luxury good. Not that I expect someone who resorts to insults to understand the difference between the two types of goods.0 -
SaibotLiu✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »wllstrt75b14_ESO wrote: »Dude the entire management staff at Zenimax should all resign for failing miserably at the most basic function of any business and that is customer care. It is really easy to say hey we were going to put out a patch but the patch is crap and we need to refine it. everyone would appreciate that and understand that but nope the release the garbage here in the US get the feed back and then repeat the same crap on the euro server like nothing happened. Second time in a row they released a larger patch that broke more then it fixed.
So clueless.
Talk about clueless. A large part of the problem here in this thread is that many here have mistaken expectations. Management's primary responsibility (in any company) is not customer care. Management's primary responsibility is to pay the bills and earn a profit. They don't work for you the customer. They work for the shareholders. Some companies can put customers as a higher priority than other companies but that usually involves higher end companies that sell expensive luxury items. See Starbucks vs McDonald's. Video game companies are more McDonald's than Starbucks or we would be seeing $250 video games.
Food isnt a luxury item...
First phrase in the first sentence killed your argument.
Really, sorry I didnt mean to rain on your high roller "I go to Starbucks every day and pretend to be a yuppie" logic. It is what it is, just stop using stupid analogies.
0 -
RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭Welcome to TESO my friend, I feel your pain.
Don't worry, some people will come here to tell you are wrong and the game is perfectly as it is now, and you will be baptized and all.0 -
stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Like several people have pointed out above, the obvious reason for the problems is bad QA, or even a lack of it. Games programming in general is a broken process without proper structure, planning or organization. This is due to rushed deadlines, lack of proper funding, and unhealthy traditions in the field. This is common to most game studios.
However, even considering the sad state of the gaming industry in general, ZOS developers are making a particularly botched job of their flagship title at the moment. Whether this is due to a lack of skill or due to the company not enabling them to do a good enough job, I cannot say. Probably it is a combination of both. In any case, the quality of their output is currently very bad. They really need to shape up, or they will risk running this game into the ground with bugs from broken patches.
2 -
RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »Like several people have pointed out above, the obvious reason for the problems is bad QA, or even a lack of it. Games programming in general is a broken process without proper structure, planning or organization. This is due to rushed deadlines, lack of proper funding, and unhealthy traditions in the field. This is common to most game studios.
However, even considering the sad state of the gaming industry in general, ZOS developers are making a particularly botched job of their flagship title at the moment. Whether this is due to a lack of skill or due to the company not enabling them to do a good enough job, I cannot say. Probably it is a combination of both. In any case, the quality of their output is currently very bad. They really need to shape up, or they will risk running this game into the ground with bugs from broken patches.
This is a great post. We don't really know what is this about. Maybe is because of lack of skill? lack of knowledge? Or maybe is just because ZOS want it this way? As you say, maybe a combination of both.
0
